Loose Frets vs High Frets

[FirstMeasure]

My MIM Strat has extreme fret buzz from the 6th fret to the 17th fret. I'm 60% sure it's loose or "Popped" frets, but it could be high frets that need to be filed down.

 

Is there a sure way to tell if the frets are loose?

[dem00n]

Get something metal, like a small wrench or something and bang on it softly on a fret you know is not loose. If you bang the wrench on a lose fret compared to a solid fret then you will be able to hear the difference.

[FirstMeasure]

Thanks Dem00n, Ill try that.

[JellyWheat]

Thanks Dem00n, Ill try that.

 

As if there was any doubt... dem00n's advice is "bang on"! [pun intended]

 

J/W

[stein]

If the buzz stops after a particular fret, that is the suspect fret. (In this case, if the 17th fret buzzes and the 18th doesn't, check fret 18). This, is for a particularly high fret.

 

If the frets are uneven, some will buzz more than others. A fret a little higher or lower will usually not cause havoc all over the neck, just at the frets directly near it.

 

If you have buzzing pretty consistent from the 6th fret to the 17th fret, it is more likely cause by the set up.

[FirstMeasure]

If the buzz stops after a particular fret, that is the suspect fret. (In this case, if the 17th fret buzzes and the 18th doesn't, check fret 18). This, is for a particularly high fret.

 

If the frets are uneven, some will buzz more than others. A fret a little higher or lower will usually not cause havoc all over the neck, just at the frets directly near it.

 

If you have buzzing pretty consistent from the 6th fret to the 17th fret, it is more likely cause by the set up.

I'm usually pretty good a doing a set up, that's been ruled out. The problem came on rather suddenly, it didn't evolve over time, so I'm pretty sure it's not just a truss rod or saddle adjustment.

[Andy R]

I'm usually pretty good a doing a set up, that's been ruled out. The problem came on rather suddenly, it didn't evolve over time, so I'm pretty sure it's not just a truss rod or saddle adjustment.

 

I wouldn't necessarily promote banging on your frets with a metal object unless you like divots. It's not uncommon for a fret to get pushed up during winter. What you need to watch out for is the "Floating fret" This the fret that pushes down slightly if you try to reset it or file It and the it just pops back up and can drive ya crazy.

 

Find the fret that you believe is high and press down either with your thumb or something heavy plastic or wood. IF you can slide a piece of paper under it and it won't release when you press down then you have a floating fret. If this is the case. A Dab of super glue under the fret ( i apply with a razor blade)) =and hold pressure firmly until it holds...

 

 

Andy

[retrosurfer1959]

I agree with both Dem00n and Andy to a point - I would be careful about smacking frets with something metal but I doubt if that's what Dem00n was suggesting a light tap can tell you if a fret is loose, I usually do it with a penny or a solid silver coin that has been filed into a pick that way you can still tell and you won't divot a fret. With winter here or coming for most of us has the board dried out that's often the cause of loose frets.

[stein]

I like the paper trick idea. Never thought of that, but yea, the issue is if the fret can move that is a problem.

 

I mean, generally, if the fret has popped out, pressing or tapping it in usually solves it. It is when it is "floating" as Andy has said is when it is a problem because it won't be stable with any fret dressing or such if it is high.

 

I like learning stuff.

 

Of corse, I don't think the idea of hitting it with metal was intended to hit hard enough to scratch it, as I doubt you could hear a difference if you were.

 

Another option would be to get a finish hammer, one with a smooth head on it. Bang good on it, and if it is too tall, you can smash it flatter. If it is floating, smashing it will deform it and make it pop out more.

 

 

*the last sentence is for entertainment purposes only. The above mentioned "adjustment tool" is actually only to be used by those qualified. It requires highly specialized training to use these delicate instruments, and should only be used by those trained and qualified in the art of fine tuning these tools are designed for.

[damian]

As a known amateur, I usually just buy another new guitar........Can't say I've played above the 6th fret myself......

 

( It does sound like a loose fret.....an easy fix ).......... .....

[FirstMeasure]

I wouldn't necessarily promote banging on your frets with a metal object unless you like divots. It's not uncommon for a fret to get pushed up during winter. What you need to watch out for is the "Floating fret" This the fret that pushes down slightly if you try to reset it or file It and the it just pops back up and can drive ya crazy.

 

Find the fret that you believe is high and press down either with your thumb or something heavy plastic or wood. IF you can slide a piece of paper under it and it won't release when you press down then you have a floating fret. If this is the case. A Dab of super glue under the fret ( i apply with a razor blade)) =and hold pressure firmly until it holds...

 

 

Andy

I wouldn't hit it that hard, but I like the paper idea a lot better.

 

I agree with both Dem00n and Andy to a point - I would be careful about smacking frets with something metal but I doubt if that's what Dem00n was suggesting a light tap can tell you if a fret is loose, I usually do it with a penny or a solid silver coin that has been filed into a pick that way you can still tell and you won't divot a fret. With winter here or coming for most of us has the board dried out that's often the cause of loose frets.

It happened right after the weather went cold, alright. Plus, when I was changing out the guts I had to clean out about a half pound of saw dust, so I wonder if the fret slots weren't that clean when they glued them in at the factory.

 

 

Thanks, everyone, for the input.

[Kimbabig]

As a known amateur, I usually just buy another new guitar........Can't say I've played above the 6th fret myself......

 

( It does sound like a loose fret.....an easy fix ).......... .....

 

We all know there's nothing past the 3rd fret, you'll fall off the end of the Earth.

[Andy R]

I wouldn't hit it that hard, but I like the paper idea a lot better.

 

 

It happened right after the weather went cold, alright. Plus, when I was changing out the guts I had to clean out about a half pound of saw dust, so I wonder if the fret slots weren't that clean when they glued them in at the factory.

 

 

Thanks, everyone, for the input.

 

I just tok a better look at your post. It would be highly unusual for the 17th fret to be high enough to cause buzz from the 6 fret all the way up unless you have extremely low action. I would bet one or both of the following have happened. The neck has back-bowed due to colder dryer weather ( happens every year) and or you put slightly lighter gauge strings on it. If you fret the first fret on the D or G string and use your other hand to fret the 12th fret on the same string you should have at least half the diameter of the string or a hair more gap between the bottom of the string to the top of the 5th -7th fret. If it is any less or actually sitting on top of the fret you need to give the neck a bit of relief ( loosen the truss rod about 1/2 of a turn and then tighten about a 1/4 turn, flex the neck a little and check again. Repeat until the neck has the proper relief.

 

 

I doubt the neck was anywhere near the body when it was constructed and most likely the fretboard was pre-freted before it was on the neck ( most likely the frets are just pressed in and not glued). The saw dust you saw in the body could be buffing compound dust .

 

 

 

PS if you tap, hit, smack, wallop on your frets with any metal object make sure it is brass...

 

Just my .5

 

 

Andy

[dem00n]

Well i hope you would know naturally not to bang hard on your frets.

[FirstMeasure]

I just tok a better look at your post. It would be highly unusual for the 17th fret to be high enough to cause buzz from the 6 fret all the way up unless you have extremely low action. I would bet one or both of the following have happened. The neck has back-bowed due to colder dryer weather ( happens every year) and or you put slightly lighter gauge strings on it. If you fret the first fret on the D or G string and use your other hand to fret the 12th fret on the same string you should have at least half the diameter of the string or a hair more gap between the bottom of the string to the top of the 5th -7th fret. If it is any less or actually sitting on top of the fret you need to give the neck a bit of relief ( loosen the truss rod about 1/2 of a turn and then tighten about a 1/4 turn, flex the neck a little and check again. Repeat until the neck has the proper relief.

 

 

I doubt the neck was anywhere near the body when it was constructed and most likely the fretboard was pre-freted before it was on the neck ( most likely the frets are just pressed in and not glued). The saw dust you saw in the body could be buffing compound dust .

 

 

 

PS if you tap, hit, smack, wallop on your frets with any metal object make sure it is brass...

 

Just my .5

 

 

Andy

I think they are glued in, as I can see a little super glue slopped on the fret board in a spot or two (testament to MIM Fenders ). I'm hoping it's not a warped neck, but that is my fear. I thought about neck relief, but didn't know how to test for it, thanks for that.

 

I'm seriously considering a new neck, maybe with Maple Fretboard instead of rosewood, but I hate not being able to fix something so.....

 

 

And it would have been nice if they had blown a little of the dust out before they put the pick guard on <_<

[Andy R]

I think they are glued in, as I can see a little super glue slopped on the fret board in a spot or two (testament to MIM Fenders ). I'm hoping it's not a warped neck, but that is my fear. I thought about neck relief, but didn't know how to test for it, thanks for that.

 

I'm seriously considering a new neck, maybe with Maple Fretboard instead of rosewood, but I hate not being able to fix something so.....

 

 

And it would have been nice if they had blown a little of the dust out before they put the pick guard on <_<

 

Hmmm I would be really surprised if they are all glued. Maybe a floating fret or two... Could be wrong.... but more likely slop from glueing in Dots... Neck relief is an easy fix and something every guitarist should learn to do. You have to really try hard to actually Fook up a neck by adjusting the truss rod. The neck could be twisted but generally wouldn't happen in a short period. One way to tell if you don't know how to sight a neck is to do the same method for checking for relief but do it on the E and or A String and the B and or E string you can also fret the 3rd and 15th frets as well as the 1st and last. There should be approximately the same amount of relief on the high side of the neck as you do the low side. If there is a lot of relief say on the E and or B string and Barely any on the E and or A string that is pretty much a give away that there is a twist.

 

A long accurate straight edge is the best and easiest to check with ( Not an aluminum yard stick) I can sight a neck pretty well by putting the bottom strap button on the toe of my shoe while looking down and gazing across the tops of the frets and along the edges. The trick is not to focus at one spot too much and look kinda past the entire neck. This is a quick way to see humps and twists.

 

 

Andy

[stein]

Another way to check for BACKBOW on the neck:

 

Fret the first fret with your left hand, and choose a fret high up on the neck (20th, 17th, or whatever) and fret that one with your right hand pinky. Then with your index finger or thumb, pluck the string.

 

You should be able to get the string to wibrate. If you have a backbow the frets will be touching the string and prevent it.

[stein]

What kind of strat are we talking about? Is it a 60's type with the truss rod adjustment at the heel or does it have the adjustment at the headstock?

 

We can help with adjustment.

[rocketman]

Andy, did you every think about writing a book? I'd buy it in a heartbeat...

[stein]

...unless the fingerboard just happens to be perfectly flat. Although I haven't read it anywhere, I have a theory that, since most people check fingerboard flatness/relief with the "string method" instead of a precision straight-edge, that having some relief is proof-positive that the neck isn't back-bowed. A perfectly flat fingerboard is not "wrong", and some players/luthiers set them up that way on purpose.

That's true. I agree.

 

Not all of us have access to a straight edge though, AND not all of us have the same "mojo" in being able to tell. Or, the same skills or experience.

 

The context here is no straight edge, and ANDY has given a good tip on sighting the neck. Holding the string at both ends and plucking is just another method to help determine what is happening. And being striaght (punny?) I think it one of the easiest ways I use to see HOW much bow is there, OR, doing it delicately with practice is also pretty easy to see if it is in fact, flat or backbowed.

[Andy R]

...unless the fingerboard just happens to be perfectly flat. Although I haven't read it anywhere, I have a theory that, since most people check fingerboard flatness/relief with the "string method" instead of a precision straight-edge, that having some relief is proof-positive that the neck isn't back-bowed. A perfectly flat fingerboard is not "wrong", and some players/luthiers set them up that way on purpose.

 

An understandable and logical theory but the physics of a vibrating string creates an elliptical arching motion. This creates issues for the perfectly flat Neck/fretboard theory.

 

In order to have a perfectly flat fretboard without buzzing or funky neck angle/string height each successive fret would need to be shorter as you move up the neck. This would make the first fret the tallest and the last fret the shortest. To compensate this without the benefit of neck relief you would end up with pretty short frets by the time you get to the last.

 

I actually do this somewhat when I do fret work to a small degree while also compensating for neck relief. To get the most accurate fret level and crown that produces the least amount of buzz and provides for optimal string height it is best to have the neck fixed with the same amount of tension as it would have with the desired string gauge and tuning and string height. This is what the PLEK machine does ( somewhat) and also what Dan Erlewine/Stewart McDonalds and some other Shops do by utilizing a Jig that keeps the neck at the same tension and optimal relief it would be under when it is strung while they do the fretwork.

 

The common misconception is that the neck/fingerboard/frets should be perfectly flat and level even when doing a fret job. In reality the neck/Fingerboard/frets need be set and filed so that when the guitar is strung, tuned to pitch and optimal string height is set each fret past the one you are fingering is just low enough not to buzz and compensate for string vibration arch and any quirks with the fingerboard and or individual fret....

 

If you were to do this and then set the neck perfectly flat again and use different precision straight edges to check the frets you would find some funky variations in fret height but that is what is making it accurate.

 

 

 

 

 

Andy

[FirstMeasure]

What kind of strat are we talking about? Is it a 60's type with the truss rod adjustment at the heel or does it have the adjustment at the headstock?

 

We can help with adjustment.

It's a modern C neck from a 2004 MIM deluxe Players Strat with the truss rod adjustment in the Headstock.

 

Hmmm I would be really surprised if they are all glued. Maybe a floating fret or two... Could be wrong.... but more likely slop from glueing in Dots... Neck relief is an easy fix and something every guitarist should learn to do. You have to really try hard to actually Fook up a neck by adjusting the truss rod. The neck could be twisted but generally wouldn't happen in a short period. One way to tell if you don't know how to sight a neck is to do the same method for checking for relief but do it on the E and or A String and the B and or E string you can also fret the 3rd and 15th frets as well as the 1st and last. There should be approximately the same amount of relief on the high side of the neck as you do the low side. If there is a lot of relief say on the E and or B string and Barely any on the E and or A string that is pretty much a give away that there is a twist.

 

A long accurate straight edge is the best and easiest to check with ( Not an aluminum yard stick) I can sight a neck pretty well by putting the bottom strap button on the toe of my shoe while looking down and gazing across the tops of the frets and along the edges. The trick is not to focus at one spot too much and look kinda past the entire neck. This is a quick way to see humps and twists.

 

 

Andy

 

Well, the glue is right in the fret, but that doesn't mean anything, it could be from the dots.

 

What kind of straight edge would you suggest, I don't trust yardsticks.

 

And thanks, Andy, for answering so thoroughly, and thanks everyone for your answers and advice. It's going to take a couple days to digest all this info and then go for it, but I'll keep you updated.

[Andy R]

It's a modern C neck from a 2004 MIM deluxe Players Strat with the truss rod adjustment in the Headstock.

 

 

 

Well, the glue is right in the fret, but that doesn't mean anything, it could be from the dots.

 

What kind of straight edge would you suggest, I don't trust yardsticks.

 

And thanks, Andy, for answering so thoroughly, and thanks everyone for your answers and advice. It's going to take a couple days to digest all this info and then go for it, but I'll keep you updated.

 

No problem at all. I'm not dismissing the chance they have glued some frets it's just a bit unusual but not if QC fixed a fret that wouldn't stay seated.

 

A poor mans straight edge that would be fairly accurate would be a carpenters level. Stew McDonalds sell precision straight edges as well as wood working shops like Rockler and Woodworkers supply.

 

Another thing to check is the pickup height. IF the pickups are too high the magnetic field can screw with the strings vibrational arch and cause buzzing. ( I chased a buzz for about a whole day before I figured this out many years ago)

 

 

One more "Tell" of twisted necks or humps etc... is by looking at the top of the frets. Generally QC doesn't do that great of a job of re-crowning frets when they give it a quick fret level. Look for frets that are flatter on top. If the fret is partially flat and then gets more round either that fret is not seated right or there is a twist in that area. You will usually see this across a few consecutive frets. If you see a group of frets that are flat across the whole fret then there is a hump in that area.... If you see frets that are just flat on the edges there is a good chance that the fret ends are floating.

 

 

 

 

Regards,

 

 

Andy

[FirstMeasure]

Thanks Andy, you're really helping a lot!!

 

One more question, would you take the neck off during all this or do it with the body on? I want to take the neck off, but don't know if that's a good idea.

[Andy R]

Thanks Andy, you're really helping a lot!!

 

One more question, would you take the neck off during all this or do it with the body on? I want to take the neck off, but don't know if that's a good idea.

 

 

 

No problem. I enjoy helping if I can.

For doing actual fretwork I would take the neck off. Not really required if you are just checking the neck and frets out...

 

 

Andy