GotTheSilver Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 My dream guitar is a pre-1955 Southern Jumbo. I have recently decided to start saving up my money to make one of these beauties my next guitar purchase. It may be a while before I have the money ready, since my wife and I are now expecting our third child, but this is my goal. I have played a number of vintage SJs and J-45s at guitar shows, but I am far from an expert in these guitars like some others are, so I would appreciate some help from those who know. Do banner SJs sound different in general than non-banner late 40s/early 50s SJ? I mean other than regular one guitar to the next differences. Aesthetically, I like the neck binding on the later non-banner ones, and the smaller neck is a plus. Banner slope shoulders seem to be the most highly regarded and sought after, though. Is there truly a sonic or quality difference in these guitars, or is this hype? Banner SJs seem to have a lot of variation (different woods for bodies, different woods for necks, sitka vs. Adirondack top, number of pieces in the top, differences in bracing I believe, etc.) due to war time circumstances, so without more firsthand knowledge I find it hard to believe these are consistently better than the non-banners. Anyone have any thoughts? I would be looking for one with a mahogany body. Thanks, John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfox14 Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 I would stay away from a banner SJ that didn't have a truss rod. Many WWII-era Gibsons didn't have them due to war shortages. Can't say much about tonal differences. I played 1 banner SJ and it was a cannon!! Extremely high volume and power for a Jumbo. Never played a 50s era SJ. The correct name for this guitar is "Southerner Jumbo" and was shortened later on. Here the SJ as it appeared in one of Gibson's 1946 brochures (no catalogs or brochures printed during WWII); Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hogeye Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 My dream guitar is a pre-1955 Southern Jumbo. I have recently decided to start saving up my money to make one of these beauties my next guitar purchase. It may be a while before I have the money ready, since my wife and I are now expecting our third child, but this is my goal. I have played a number of vintage SJs and J-45s at guitar shows, but I am far from an expert in these guitars like some others are, so I would appreciate some help from those who know. Do banner SJs sound different in general than non-banner late 40s/early 50s SJ? I mean other than regular one guitar to the next differences. Aesthetically, I like the neck binding on the later non-banner ones, and the smaller neck is a plus. Banner slope shoulders seem to be the most highly regarded and sought after, though. Is there truly a sonic or quality difference in these guitars, or is this hype? Banner SJs seem to have a lot of variation (different woods for bodies, different woods for necks, sitka vs. Adirondack top, number of pieces in the top, differences in bracing I believe, etc.) due to war time circumstances, so without more firsthand knowledge I find it hard to believe these are consistently better than the non-banners. Anyone have any thoughts? I would be looking for one with a mahogany body. Thanks, John Hi John, I would encourage you to go to BannerGibsons.com. This is J.T's website and is really informative. He has done a lot of work on the "Banners" and you will find a wealth of info there. Lots of great photos as well as hard to find specs. J.T. and his partner have compiled the best resource available. After you have done a little research there then maybe you can compare the "banners" to the rest of what's out there. I personally think it is to difficult to say that anyone is better that another. It's all about how the individual guitars themselves sound. I have played several "Banner" guitars that just weren't all the inspiring. I have a "Banner" 45 and most that play it really think it is one of the best. If anyone on the Forum ever gets a chance to go to Weiser Idaho to the National Fiddle Contest go. There are more original "Banners" being played there than any place on the planet. The guys that back up the fiddlers are traditional and they all play amazing old S.J's amd original A.J's This place is like heaven for the guy that wants to hear and play the original Gibsons. There are scores of them. Don't even think about getting into the many "Jams" they have in the parking lots in the evening unless you are a very good picker. These old guys are absolutly the best. Good luck with your search and congrats on your growing family. Kids first then guitars. I kinda like the S.J. without the neck binding. It's a shame that the folks at Gibson don't know that the S.J. never had neck binding before 1946-47. If they did maybe they wouldn't have made Fuller's 42 and 43 reissues with neck binding. One trip to J.T's website was all they had to do. Ya gotta wonder.... ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Ah, a topic near and dear to my heart and my nearly-finished book! The post WWII changes were gradual and there are some who prefer the just-after-the-war 1946 script logo (without banner) guitars. I've actually published two articles on this topic in, of all places, the journal of the American Society of Radiologic Technologists. Yep, I've been x-raying vintage guitars. I discovered that the post war guitars were built a little more heavily than the wartime guitars (at least the few that I've been able to sample). Whether that's good or bad depends on personal preferences. I like the lightweight version. All post mid-1944 Gibsons have Sitka rather than Adirondack tops (until the few, recent custom orders). So, if that makes a difference to you, you can pay attention to that date. As for other wood differences, the more unique possibilities like laminated maple backs and sides and mahogany tops were reserved for J-45s and LGs. All SJs have spruce tops. Some, do, though, have the laminate, maple necks. The rarest and most valuable SJs are from the 1943 batches with FONS of 910 and 2005 with Indian rosewood(not Brazilian) sides and backs (and, at least one from batch 2005 with a mahogany back and rosewood sides). These are great guitars. You can peruse my Banner Gibson registry for a bit more information. In addition, here's my video comparison of rosewood and mahogany 1943 SJs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb-mGfC-vfI I hope that this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 redundant, inane comment deleted by J45nick. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Thanks for the plug, Hogeye. I was typing my reply while you were posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hogeye Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Ah, a topic near and dear to my heart and my nearly-finished book! The post WWII changes were gradual and there are some who prefer the just-after-the-war 1946 script logo (without banner) guitars. I've actually published two articles on this topic in, of all places, the journal of the American Society of Radiologic Technologists. Yep, I've been x-raying vintage guitars. I discovered that the post war guitars were built a little more heavily than the wartime guitars (at least the few that I've been able to sample). Whether that's good or bad depends on personal preferences. I like the lightweight version. All post mid-1944 Gibsons have Sitka rather than Adirondack tops (until the few, recent custom orders). So, if that makes a difference to you, you can pay attention to that date. As for other wood differences, the more unique possibilities like laminated maple backs and sides and mahogany tops were reserved for J-45s and LGs. All SJs have spruce tops. Some, do, though, have the laminate, maple necks. The rarest and most valuable SJs are from the 1943 batches with FONS of 910 and 2005 with Indian rosewood(not Brazilian) sides and backs (and, at least one from batch 2005 with a mahogany back and rosewood sides). These are great guitars. You can peruse my Banner Gibson registry for a bit more information. In addition, here's my video comparison of rosewood and mahogany 1943 SJs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb-mGfC-vfI I hope that this helps. Sorry John. Didn't mean to step all over you. Here is a thought. If Gibson paid your way to Montana would you come to the "Homecoming"? They are pretty thickheaded about this sort of thing but just maybe someone here could apply a little pressure. Gibson could certainly benefit from your research. I know that in the past you have given one person at Gibson your catalog of X-rayed tops. That research went to China and never got to Montana. Maybe if you got together with the folks in Bozeman you could help them. They are embarking on a "New Era" and will need all the help they can get. More on this when I can get my spy to talk. I'm trying to get them to bring Eldon Whitford out as well. P.M. me if you want to talk... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Sorry John. Didn't mean to step all over you. Here is a thought. If Gibson paid your way to Montana would you come to the "Homecoming"? They are pretty thickheaded about this sort of thing but just maybe someone here could apply a little pressure. Gibson could certainly benefit from your research. I know that in the past you have given one person at Gibson your catalog of X-rayed tops. That research went to China and never got to Montana. Maybe if you got together with the folks in Bozeman you could help them. They are embarking on a "New Era" and will need all the help they can get. More on this when I can get my spy to talk. I'm trying to get them to bring Eldon Whitford out as well. P.M. me if you want to talk... Hogeye, Oh, no worries. You didn't step on me. I was sincere when I thanked you for referencing my research. I'm really surprised that anyone else knew about my x-rays going to china! You've got a seriously good source. I've got an amazing pic of the Chinese factory workers holding printouts of my x-rays. I'd love to present my research to the Bozeman folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 I would stay away from a banner SJ that didn't have a truss rod. There's absolutely no reason to shy away from banner Gibsons without truss rods. Gibson inlaid a maple "V" rod in the necks of these guitars and their necks have been very stable. Folks experienced in working on wartime gibsons, like my pal Willi Henkes, will tell you the same. They are my favorites of the banner guitars. That one SJ that you played, paul, does not have a truss rod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hogeye Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Hogeye, Oh, no worries. You didn't step on me. I was sincere when I thanked you for referencing my research. I'm really surprised that anyone else knew about my x-rays going to china! You've got a seriously good source. I've got an amazing pic of the Chinese factory workers holding printouts of my x-rays. I'd love to present my research to the Bozeman folks. I'll get to work on it. They are going to need all the help they can get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-1854Me Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 My dream guitar is a pre-1955 Southern Jumbo. I have recently decided to start saving up my money to make one of these beauties my next guitar purchase. It may be a while before I have the money ready, since my wife and I are now expecting our third child, but this is my goal. I have played a number of vintage SJs and J-45s at guitar shows, but I am far from an expert in these guitars like some others are, so I would appreciate some help from those who know. Do banner SJs sound different in general than non-banner late 40s/early 50s SJ? I mean other than regular one guitar to the next differences. Aesthetically, I like the neck binding on the later non-banner ones, and the smaller neck is a plus. Banner slope shoulders seem to be the most highly regarded and sought after, though. Is there truly a sonic or quality difference in these guitars, or is this hype? Banner SJs seem to have a lot of variation (different woods for bodies, different woods for necks, sitka vs. Adirondack top, number of pieces in the top, differences in bracing I believe, etc.) due to war time circumstances, so without more firsthand knowledge I find it hard to believe these are consistently better than the non-banners. Anyone have any thoughts? I would be looking for one with a mahogany body. Thanks, John John (OP John, that is), Setting your sights on a pre-'55 SJ is a NICE way to jump into the world of vintage guitars! You're essentially only talking about 13 years of production, but as you probably already know, within that guitar model, there were a number of changes that occurred, involving both cosmetic and structural design elements. And as Hogeye rightly notes, not all possess the same tonal character. I auditioned a '46 SJ a year or so ago, hoping to come back with one of the vaunted Script-logo-no-Banner-no-binding-wonderful-sound SJs, and thereby sell my own '53 SJ to honour the "one in/one out" rule. Alas and alack, it was not to be, as the '46 simply did not hold a candle to my own '53! And that's the way it goes sometimes. I also like the non-bound fingerboard of the early SJs, and had that replicated on a recent custom Shop Gibson SJ built mostly by Val Bolitho. Here's my '53: Anyway, good luck on your search. There area, at least, several available at various dealers as well as other online sellers in various locations on the web. But they vary widely in price though. Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigKahune Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 . Following . . . . . . great info guys. Thanks. . B) . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EuroAussie Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Interesting. Im generally a mahogany guy but that rosewood SJ just sounded phenomanal. Massive, rich deep tone but still excellent clarity that you dont often get with rosewood. Very impressive. Ah, a topic near and dear to my heart and my nearly-finished book! The post WWII changes were gradual and there are some who prefer the just-after-the-war 1946 script logo (without banner) guitars. I've actually published two articles on this topic in, of all places, the journal of the American Society of Radiologic Technologists. Yep, I've been x-raying vintage guitars. I discovered that the post war guitars were built a little more heavily than the wartime guitars (at least the few that I've been able to sample). Whether that's good or bad depends on personal preferences. I like the lightweight version. All post mid-1944 Gibsons have Sitka rather than Adirondack tops (until the few, recent custom orders). So, if that makes a difference to you, you can pay attention to that date. As for other wood differences, the more unique possibilities like laminated maple backs and sides and mahogany tops were reserved for J-45s and LGs. All SJs have spruce tops. Some, do, though, have the laminate, maple necks. The rarest and most valuable SJs are from the 1943 batches with FONS of 910 and 2005 with Indian rosewood(not Brazilian) sides and backs (and, at least one from batch 2005 with a mahogany back and rosewood sides). These are great guitars. You can peruse my Banner Gibson registry for a bit more information. In addition, here's my video comparison of rosewood and mahogany 1943 SJs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb-mGfC-vfI I hope that this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TM Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Southern Jumbo, a favorite among many. Just the right amount of bling. Yes you will find a difference in the Banners and the post war guitars, some you mentioned, neck and neck binding. I think the Banner guitars are consistently good sounding, post war guitars not as much. There will be a large difference in cost. The Banner head guitars are not rare so they have been in the hands of many players. They deserve their reputation as find sounding guitars, it is not hype. Here is one I recently picked up. A very powerful guitar with a lot of tone character. I have never owned/played a post war Gibson SJ/J45/J50 that had this sound and I have owned a few. You can find a great sounding post-war guitar, no doubt. If you play a Banner you will not find that tone in a post war guitar. This one will be for sale at some point, but it will be expensive, maybe not worth it to some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Interesting. Im generally a mahogany guy but that rosewood SJ just sounded phenomanal. Massive, rich deep tone but still excellent clarity that you dont often get with rosewood. Very impressive. Further to our rantings on pickguard placements (or maybe not), the pickguards on these two guitars do not seem to be placed exactly the same, or they are slightly different in size. Check out the amount of "body" exposed between the edge of the pickguard and the edge of the guitars at the waist. Likewise, check out the amount of pickguard that actually extends beneath the high E string just forward of the bridge. Does my eye deceive me, or are there very slight differences here (say 1/4"-3/8"--6mm-10mm)? Not saying these are significant differences compared to covering up the rosette, but maybe these were always placed by eye rather than having a jig or top template for the job. Or maybe it's just shrinkage....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rar Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 ... Maybe if you got together with the folks in Bozeman you could help them. They are embarking on a "New Era" and will need all the help they can get. ... Maybe I'm just the nervous type. but that "New Era" thing sounds a little scary! Having J.T. up to visit in conjunction with the Homecoming is a great idea. (It's been proposed before, and previous management made generally sympathetic noises, but I think that's as far as it went.) If support/pressure/whatever from the organizer and the usual Homecoming suspects would help, let me know. -- Bob R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Further to our rantings on pickguard placements (or maybe not), the pickguards on these two guitars do not seem to be placed exactly the same, or they are slightly different in size. Good eyes, Nick! Alas, the rosewood SJ was only visiting and I no longer have access to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 By the way, if any of you are even in Connecticut, please send me a message and arrange to stop by to play some old Gibsons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TM Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 The "Homecoming" should be in Kalamazoo MI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-1854Me Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 By the way, if any of you are even in Connecticut, please send me a message and arrange to stop by to play some old Gibsons. Back atcha John! If you're ever on Canada's Wet Coast, come on down! The Tim Horton's will be on us! And we'll let you smudge up some guitars too.... Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EuroAussie Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Great offer JT, I wish ... By the way, if any of you are even in Connecticut, please send me a message and arrange to stop by to play some old Gibsons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TM Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Ah, a topic near and dear to my heart and my nearly-finished book! By the way John, when will that book be published? I'm waiting to sell a few guitars after the book comes out and prices take a spike. Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 By the way John, when will that book be published? I'm waiting to sell a few guitars after the book comes out and prices take a spike. Terry, well, first we have to get Fred to agree to wait until after the book is on the best sellers' list before revealing that sometimes older is not better (in guitars). As for the book, I'll finish it in the spring. I've got 300 pages of manuscript now and just one chapter to finish. Then, there is all the graphic work for pics and X-rays. Plus, I'm working on putting together a companion CD. Given Gibson's WWII workforce, I wanted to sign up a woman to do the playing and singing and I've recently made arrangements with Lauren Sheehan to record in May or June, so I'm excited about that. I've got my own Banner collection and access to several more good examples, but I'll be wanting a different instrument on every cut and will put out the word soon for guitar volunteers (hint, hint). I'll likely be making one more trip to Kalamazoo this spring for a few more pics, too. Gotta get the book done before my movie starts filming this summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Great offer JT, I wish ... Well, maybe I can visit you! I'll be in Prague sometime in 2012 -- August, I think -- to give a talk (on autism/bioethics). Let's stay in touch and make sure to do a bit of picking. I usually travel these days with a carbon fiber guitar, but could probably be convinced to bring my Banner LG instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 I usually travel these days with a carbon fiber guitar, but could probably be convinced to bring my Banner LG instead. JT, Do you have a Composite Acoustics Cargo, or what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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