JuanCarlosVejar Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 I've been listening to alot of very high quality recordings of boutique parlor guitars that have brazialian rosewood . this brazilian is "old growth" ... is it wrong to not be blown away by this tonewood ? ... I like maple and mahogany alot. this is not to say I will never want to own a BR guitar but ... I don't think it's all they say it is . I heard a clip of a 1968 Martin D 28 sometime ago with BR back and sides and it sounded like total crap ... the same guy had some newer custom martins that sounded better . maybe I have just not been listening to the right samples/videos ? thanks guys JC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EuroAussie Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 I think the 'myth' of Brazilian is bigger than the fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-minor7 Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 I guess it's like not liking Pelé - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParlourMan Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 It was worth nothing when there was an abundance of it... That should speak volumes, but by the pricing today clearly it doesn't... like any material or any set of specs, it's only as good as your material and your playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stein Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 I actually prefer Indian Rosewood to Brazilion. I like the straighter grain, and I like the more light brown streaks that seem to happen more with Indian. I also think most Indian is a little lighter and stiffer than Brazilian. That's just opinion from limeted observation, though. Not that Brazillian isn't great. And it is unique. A lot of the hype is the rarity, and the fact that it is part of most origonal recipees. It does matter to a point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuanCarlosVejar Posted November 13, 2012 Author Share Posted November 13, 2012 I think the 'myth' of Brazilian is bigger than the fact. Sam Ash shot a video of Chris Martin talking about the different displays at the Martin Museum ... at one point they let one of the guys play the first D 28 (slotted headstock and 12 fret I believe) and the 1942 D 45. I loved the sound of the D 28 but I wasn't impressed with the D 45 which apparently had brazilian on it ... and Chris Martin says that to him thats the best sounding vintage Martin he has ever heard ... I would take that D 28 any day ... the D 45 didnt really get me at all . here is the clip the guitars are played at around 7:20 : JC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissouriPicker Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 Wood is/was a living thing. Even after it's no longer a tree, it still breathes the air, takes in moisture, expands, contracts. Lots of variables in this, including perhaps the biggest one: our ears. I've always heard the same stories about the Brazillian wood. Hell, I don't know. I don't even know if I've ever owned one of them. If I like a guitar and it holds-up, I don't care if it's made out of cardboard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuanCarlosVejar Posted November 13, 2012 Author Share Posted November 13, 2012 Wood is/was a living thing. Even after it's no longer a tree, it still breathes the air, takes in moisture, expands, contracts. Lots of variables in this, including perhaps the biggest one: our ears. I've always heard the same stories about the Brazillian wood. Hell, I don't know. I don't even know if I've ever owned one of them. If I like a guitar and it holds-up, I don't care if it's made out of cardboard. Larry, thanks that makes me feel better =) JC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarrr Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 EIR is much more consistent and all around better imo. I've owned a couple braz along the way, they are great for collectors and look magnifico sitting in the living room. There's a good one here and there but mostly they are about mo money, not timbre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 I've had the privilege of holding in my hands (but not playing) several of those original pre-war D-45's. There is a magic that transfers through your skin just picking them up. I've played a modern D-45, and it just seems like a blinged-out D-28, without any particular magical qualities. I am thinking, however, of having a OOO-45 built. That might have a bit of magic. (Yeah, I know they already build a 000-42, but we're dreamin' here.) I do like the 000 that I have now, and that body size seems pretty versatile, provided you're not playing bluegrass. D's? I don't know, I just prefer Gibsons in that general size and type of guitar. But then I've never played a pre-war D-28...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
527 Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 It sounds like you are choosing guitars that won't really show off the wood too well. A parlor guitar is probably ladder braced which will have more impact on the tone than the back wood. And a 1968 Martin might have Brazilian rosewood but it's structurally a much different guitar than a golden era D-28 from before WWII. The bracing is probably more important than the back wood. Having said that, here's a couple no-name guys getting decent tone out of old Brazilian guitars. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEkVkJax2Co http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JFgC3Ub10E Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merseybeat1963 Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 One can not really judge the sound of an acoustic guitar via a video recording. It gives a hint but in person it will sound different. Only way to judge if its better is to play a lot of them some place that has stock of some. And a 1968 Martin is not a good example cause those guitars were heavily braced. Personally its down to the voice the wood has,and how that voice in you responds to it. Tellingly,guys who make handmade guitars,when you pry..they prefer Brazilian Rosewood. Reluctantly George Lowden told me it was overall the best. And elsewhere he wrote the good Brazilian "is the ultimate". John Greven says that Brazilian gives a trampoline effect to the sound...and adds,no, Madagascar does not sound like Brazilian. Even Ren Ferguson said he prefers it the most. Most don't outright offer the opinion for reasons similar to Ivory. In general its probably the wood to use on an acoustic guitar. And you'll have to pay about double to get a low grade set of it on a Martin,than it would be to get an average set on a small makers guitar. At an acoustic specialty shoppe where I bought my last guitar..after asking him about the guitar I was buying blindly.. the repair guy said that "the best guitar that ever came out of here was a Brazilian Lowden that had over tones all over the place". I sure wish I owned that one I thought as I bought my H&D. Seems to me a great sounding guitar can be made out of any of the other woods. If the thing is made to sound good its the amount of time put into playing it that makes it eventually special sounding. But I would rather have a new Indian Huss & Dalton or a mahogany Moll than a new Brazilian Martin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
527 Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 It was worth nothing when there was an abundance of it... Then why was it reserved for the highest spec vintage Martin guitars? Style 28, 40, 42, 45... Why was it used so rarely on vintage Gibson flat tops? Granted, most pre-war rosewood Gibsons were not Brazilian, but rosewood was reserved for their high end models as well (Advanced Jumbo, L-2, Nick Lucas, early SJ-200, early SJ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest J-Doug Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 I have played Braz guitars but none of them made me want to go out and sell the guitars I have to own one. YMMV. Let your ears guide you, not the hype. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blindboygrunt Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 It sounds like you are choosing guitars that won't really show off the wood too well. A parlor guitar is probably ladder braced which will have more impact on the tone than the back wood. And a 1968 Martin might have Brazilian rosewood but it's structurally a much different guitar than a golden era D-28 from before WWII. The bracing is probably more important than the back wood. Having said that, here's a couple no-name guys getting decent tone out of old Brazilian guitars. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEkVkJax2Co http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JFgC3Ub10E is the second guy buc mcmasters older brother ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 It sounds like you are choosing guitars that won't really show off the wood too well. A parlor guitar is probably ladder braced which will have more impact on the tone than the back wood. And a 1968 Martin might have Brazilian rosewood but it's structurally a much different guitar than a golden era D-28 from before WWII. The bracing is probably more important than the back wood. Having said that, here's a couple no-name guys getting decent tone out of old Brazilian guitars. That guitar Norman Blake is playing looks like a pre-war slot-head 12-fret 'burst D. That must be a rare bird indeed! I've always considered Blake to be a flat-pickin' genius, and this clip demonstrates it pretty well. He is definitely king of the 12-fretters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayyj Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 Well, environmentalists would say it's a very good thing if you don't like BR! My 19th Century classical has a Brazilian back that is veneered onto Spruce - it seems at that point the percieved wisdom was that a lightweight timber was seen as tonally superior, and the Rosewood was simply an attractive material with which to add a little extra protection to the delicate softwood. It's a lovely sounding guitar, although nothing like a modern classical. At the end of the day, the crucial thing for any of us is what our ear tell us, and if you prefer Indian Rosewood to Brazilian that's a valid point of view. But a great many wonderful guitars were made with Brazilian Rosewood and the choice of materials contribute to what makes those guitars great - so it's understandable that many will pay a large premium for BR. Personally I've compared D-28s from either side of the BR cutoff date, and must admit to a preference for the BR versions. I've also had similar experiences to Merseybeat that a number of well regarded modern luthiers I've talked wood with have expressed a weakness for the timber. There's no question that it can be great stuff in the right hands. On the other hand, there are a good number of alternatives that, whilst different in tone than BR, should not be considered in any way inferior. Mahogany has been the cheap and cheerful option for the last century, and it's a phoenomenal timber for guitar making, and one of the things that appeals to me about Gibson is that they've always excelled in producing Mahogany models. I wouldn't say it's better than BR or other Rosewoods, but I consistantly find myself picking Mahogany guitars in preference to any of the Rosewoods. There may be fanclubs for AJs or Rosewood J-200s, but a classic Mahogany J-45 or Maple J-200 is a great guitar. I recently had a guitar made for me with Oak back and sides, which sounds beautiful, possibly the best guitar I've owned, and Walnut is another hugely underrated timber for guitar making. There are many great options out there, and the holy grail status that Brazilian Rosewood posesses should be taken with a pinch of salt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merseybeat1963 Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 And in many cases the price...one Brazilian Lowden equals aprox the price of a pair in Walnut and a Mahogany... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuanCarlosVejar Posted November 13, 2012 Author Share Posted November 13, 2012 It sounds like you are choosing guitars that won't really show off the wood too well. A parlor guitar is probably ladder braced which will have more impact on the tone than the back wood. And a 1968 Martin might have Brazilian rosewood but it's structurally a much different guitar than a golden era D-28 from before WWII. The bracing is probably more important than the back wood. Having said that, here's a couple no-name guys getting decent tone out of old Brazilian guitars. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEkVkJax2Co http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JFgC3Ub10E 527 , you might be right ... but these are boutique builders who are supposed to put all their knowledge into making an exceptional guitar . and at least for me I wouldn't put money into a luthier built guitar unless it's is a parlor ... the reason being there are alot of good dreads and jumbos out there and you don't have to pay more than 10 k for an all solid dread or jumbo . I have seen the Froggy Bottom SJ with Brazilian for $24,000 . that's insane considering the recipe is mahogany and not brazilian . they do have reasonable guitars for around 6k ... but still if you want a good solid guitar you can buy a Martin a Taylor or a Gibson ... parlor guitars are the only thing I would consider getting custom built ... I ask how much for a Froggy Bottom parlor (a lefty that appeared on the website) the cost to replicate that same guitar is $27,500 ... thats nuts in my opinion . it says it's 5A Brazilian JC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merseybeat1963 Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 Juan..those Vermont people are just plain greedy. Ask how much more they are charging for that little etching behind the heal & that'll tell you : ) I just went to buy a can of Oil Primer which we use on trim only..it is distributed by a firm in Vermont. It just jump up $25 a can to $150 a "euro gallon" which is less than 2/3 of a real gallon. They got balls up there I tell you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpbiii Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 I have spent years and quite a lot of time and $$ trying to truly decide for myself some general principles in guitar sounds. Here are the $.02 conclusion summery. Old is good -- age in general improves the sound quality of guitars for all materials. BR is not really better the EIRW -- tonally it is a bit different, but the same general quality. I think BR got its reputation because it was used on so many old guitars. It wasn't until we got our 1936 AJ (EIRW) and 1935 RSRG (EIRW) to compare to our prewar D-28s (BRW) -- thus comparing old to old -- that I really firmed up that opinion. Red spruce and Sitka spruce are quite different -- they sound differently old and they sound differently new as well -- but I can't really call a winner. If forced to, I would say I like new Sitka better and old Red better. You heard it first here Best, -Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 I have spent years and quite a lot of time and $$ trying to truly decide for myself some general principles in guitar sounds. Here are the $.02 conclusion summery. Old is good -- age in general improves the sound quality of guitars for all materials. BR is not really better the EIRW -- tonally it is a bit different, but the same general quality. I think BR got its reputation because it was used on so many old guitars. It wasn't until we got our 1936 AJ (EIRW) and 1935 RSRG (EIRW) to compare to our prewar D-28s (BRW) -- thus comparing old to old -- that I really firmed up that opinion. Red spruce and Sitka spruce are quite different -- they sound differently old and they sound differently new as well -- but I can't really call a winner. If forced to, I would say I like new Sitka better and old Red better. You heard it first here Best, -Tom Now you've started it, Tom! Of course, you are comparing slope J's to Dreads, but it's nice to hear from someone who owns both kinds in both woods. Let's pick....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merseybeat1963 Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 Word. I sure would a liked a guitar in Cuban mah..... and maybe Walnut... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuanCarlosVejar Posted November 14, 2012 Author Share Posted November 14, 2012 Word. I sure would a liked a guitar in Cuban mah..... and maybe Walnut... Nick , thanks ... the FB guitars in Vermont looks really nicely crafted but I think Santa Cruz offers some nice guitars with Braz for around 15k thanks JC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
527 Posted November 14, 2012 Share Posted November 14, 2012 you might be right ... but these are boutique builders who are supposed to put all their knowledge into making an exceptional guitar . and at least for me I wouldn't put money into a luthier built guitar unless it's is a parlor ... the reason being there are alot of good dreads and jumbos out there and you don't have to pay more than 10 k for an all solid dread or jumbo . I have seen the Froggy Bottom SJ with Brazilian for $24,000 . that's insane considering the recipe is mahogany and not brazilian . they do have reasonable guitars for around 6k ... but still if you want a good solid guitar you can buy a Martin a Taylor or a Gibson ... parlor guitars are the only thing I would consider getting custom built ... I ask how much for a Froggy Bottom parlor (a lefty that appeared on the website) the cost to replicate that same guitar is $27,500 ... thats nuts in my opinion . Take the money out of it and decide based on what you like. If you must have Brazilian, it is within reach. You can find a vintage parlor guitar made from Brazilian rosewood and then go to town, have the top removed and rebraced for steel strings with scalloped braces. Get it all set up to play and sound great. I've seen them for sale for well under $2000 after the work has been done. Or find one cheap and have it done yourself. The price examples you are picking are very extreme. There have been 50's D-28's on ebay with issues going under $5000. I have seen Brazilian Collings and SCGC guitars sell for under $5000 when someone really has to move it. I'm just trying to say don't write something off becase it can be expensive. So let's back up and see what you mean by parlor guitar - what size and what type of bracing? What kind of music are you going to play on it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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