cliffenstein Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Does anyone know definitively the kind of X-Bracing Epiphone utilizes on its guitars? Specifically is it standard or forward shifted or does it change depending on the model? The only thing I can find online is X-Bracing, but no mention as to if it's standard or forward shifted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agradeleous Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 This might help http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-165840.html http://www.martinguitar.com/featuresmaterials/featuresmaterials/bracing-patterns.html It has confused me as well lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DennisB643 Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Cliff, I don't think that anyone knows the answer (as it is not revealed in the specifications) but since most of the Epiphone models are modeled after their Gibson counterparts, it would stand to reason that they would have similar bracing. I expect the new Masterbilt AJ-45 to have the same bracing as the J-45...but that is pure speculation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuitarLight Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Cliff, I don't think that anyone knows the answer (as it is not revealed in the specifications) but since most of the Epiphone models are modeled after their Gibson counterparts, it would stand to reason that they would have similar bracing. I expect the new Masterbilt AJ-45 to have the same bracing as the J-45...but that is pure speculation. This is a great question. And I really hope someone has the answer! The bracing on the new Epi Masterbilt J-45 has not been given in the specs. And bracing is critical to sound, volume, and overall tone. Sweetwater says on its web site that this guitar is one of the LOUDEST acoustic electrics they have ever had....That does not describe any Gibson J-45 I have ever heard. It more describes an AJ with very loud sound. Leading me to wonder if this is not just another AJ model like the AJ500M but a shorter scale. I already have an AJ500M. I do not wish to buy another one that is not braced as a J-45 is braced, or it may not have the J-45 tone, and more subtle volume I am looking for. Other differences include a smaller nut width, and the wood is Sapele and not Mahogany like the Gibson version. Sapele and mahogany sound similar, but they actually produce a different tone. I believe the radius is also different at 14 and not 12 which gives a different playing feel to the fret board. It is not uncommon for many guitar makers to label their sapele guitars as Mahogany since they are similar in tone and looks, and are considered as a legitimate version of mahogany, even tho the species of wood is considerably different. I do find acceptable most of these spec changes acceptable, however if the Masterbilt J-45 is not braced with the same bracing patterns as the Gibson J-45, then its tone could be very disappointing to those who are expecting the the real J-45 tone and normal volume, as compared to the much louder resonant toned AJ models. My AJ500M is LOUD in a good way. Now I want a J-45 that moderates some of that volume and replaces it with that sweet clean, lower sustain J-45 sound and tone that players around the world rally for. I am guessing that people are extremely exited about this new model because they are just assuming that it will have a very similar sound and tone to the Gibson J-45 icon, which is utterly delightful. Nothing sounds like a good Gibson J-45. Let's hope the Masterbilt model lives up to this coveted J-45 sound at least to a good degree. It that happens I think people will be thrilled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliffenstein Posted April 4, 2015 Author Share Posted April 4, 2015 I found the this on the Gibson acoustic board from late last year. A Gibson rep emailed the following: Gibson acoustic does not shift the bracing. That is a technique used by Martin. We have a standard X Brace which is found on the J-45, Hummingbird and many others. The J-35 has what we call a 30's bracing pattern like the AJ. This makes for a longer bridge plate and brings out a greater dynamic range (more mids and a little more volume). If I had to guess I'd say it is likely the same with Epiphone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red 333 Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 The bracing on the Masterbilt slope shoulder guitars is unlike any Gibson x-bracing: it's shifted way back away from the soundhole and very wide, where Gibson x-bracing is much closer to the sound hole. This is why the Masterbilts have a character distinct from Gibson slopes. A Mastebilt's low end tends to have a soft attack, long decay, and be saturated with overtones, where a Gibson emphasises the fundamental and is percussive. I don't know about the new inspired by Texans, but the first batches seemed to have the same x-bracing as the Masterbilts, from what I could tell from poking around inside them at a Music store. The Elitist and McCartney Texans had period correct 60's x-bracing. The Japanese made ones were actually more correct than the ones made in Bozeman. Don't know about the rest of the non-Masterbilt AJ line. Red 333 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agradeleous Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 Great info , I'm going to check the bracing between the Blueridge and Epi DR500 and see what if any the differences are . The Blueridge clams pre war forward X bracing and they from what I'm told are copied off Martians. I think that pattern is described in the Martian link above or the others either way be interesting to see the differences . I'll check the Ibanez also and post back . Great topic 😃 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 ...from what I'm told are copied off Martians. Yes, they're out of this world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red 333 Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 Cliff, it's important to remember that "forward shifted bracing" is a term that is generally used to describe the position of Martin x-bracing. The first dreadnaught acoustic guitar was the 1931 Martin D-38. It had x-braces that intersected an inch from the soundhole. Many other Martins descended from this model, as Gibsons and post late-fifties Epiphones descended from the Advanced Jumbo For various reasons, Matin moved the position of the x-brace intersection used on their dreadnaughts and other guitars (as well as altered the original pattern of the bracing over various periods (pattern being the number of braces, their angle in relationship to one another, and the amount of scalloping on each). In 1939, Martin moved the intersection to 1 7/8" from the soundhole. From '60 to '80, Martin positioned it at 1 1/2" inches. After that, they began to issue models that duplicated various vintage features, including x-brace position. Today, models are available with x-braces in all three positions. See, sometime during the 80's, as guitars started t become "collectible" and the vintage guitar market began to take shape, the 1931-38 D-28 began to get the reputation as the most desireable Martin guitar. People began to notice that it was built differently than new Martins. One difference they noted was the position of the x-brace, which they described as "forward shifted" from the position Martin was using at the time. This became so common that Martin itself began calling the three locations "forward shifted," "standard" (1 1/2"), and "rear shifted" (1 7/8"). That's why it might be confusing to some to use "forward shifted" with Epiphones. It's a term that today is generally accepted to mean a specific position on Martins (though that's not to say any manufacturer couldn't also position their braces there). Gibson bracing has even more variations than Martin and would take me too much time to describe here. You should note, though, that Gibson bracing patterns and locations changed especially rapidly in the thirties and early forties as the Gibson slope-shouldered dreadnaughts were evolving from the Original Jumbo to the Trojan to the J-35 to the J-45. The J-35, for instance, has at least three documented bracing patterns, and it was only made for four or five years. I only mention that because in a post above, it's noted that a Gibson rep says there are only two patterns and one position. That's basically true of the Gibsons being made today, but not at all true of the vintage instruments. What Gibson calls 30's bracing today was first used on the Advanced Jumbo reissue in 1995. Because the pattern is different (and wider) than what has become the standard Gibson slope-shoulder x-bracing, people (and even Gibson catalog writers) assume the position of the x brace is also different, especially since it was first put on a guitar called "Advanced Jumbo." They reasoned that "advanced" must mean the same thing as Matin's "forward-shifted." In reality, "advanced" has nothing to do with the position of the x-brace. Gibson called the guitar "Advanced Jumbo" in 1935 because it had an advance in ornamentation (bling) over the simpler Original Jumbo that came before it. So...this is my long winded way of explaining that forward bracing is not the same thing as what some call Gibson advanced bracing, though the two are often confused. And to reiterate, the Masterbilt bracing, at least, would certainly be described as shifted back towards the end block in relation to Gibson bracing. Red 333 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliffenstein Posted April 5, 2015 Author Share Posted April 5, 2015 Thank you, Red...GREAT info! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red 333 Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 If you want to compare bracing patterns on your guitars, fill the body with a string of Christmas tree lights and turn it on in a dark room. You'll see a kind of x-ray effect on the guitars top that will allow you to compare the general outline and position of the braces. You'll need an inspection mirror (available from Stewart McDonald or an auto parts store) to see how the braces are shaped or scalloped. Red 333 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agradeleous Posted April 5, 2015 Share Posted April 5, 2015 Dang red you just blew my mind with that read impressive sir . I have not check the bracing out yet my apologies things always Pop up . Yeah Red the auto tool I don't have is the mirror lol and the lights .. Brilliant ! So the forward prewar x bracing should be the same as the Martin on the BR ? I have a feeling the DR is slightly over built the back bracing is stout and my wish is that she a had little more volume not complaining lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickthemiller Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 Gibson bracing explained by Tony from Acoustic Letter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaceWindu57 Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 I will rejoice when I get to the stage of worrying about bracing in my guitar rather than when I can consistently play that F# diminished! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agradeleous Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 Ok do what's that finger position ? I'll give it go 😄 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuitarLight Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 For those interested in the bracing topic...Found this bracing commentary on the guitar player link below discussing the Masterbilt J-45, it's not much, but it's the only vague reference to "bracing" on this guitar that I have found anywhere, including the Epi web site which does not utter a word about bracing... ........Quote... The top is supported by hand-scalloped Sitka spruce braces and is set off by mahogany kerfing along with a rosewood bridge and a bone saddle. Reference .. http://www.guitarplayer.com/frets/1422/newnamm-2015-epiphone-masterbilt-aj-45me-acousticelectric/50535 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agradeleous Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Hey there ok I just uploaded photo's from the DR500MCE After looking at it and lots of wondering I'm having a few thoughts 1) ones is that the bracing is not hand carved not saying it Epi says they are I don't recall. The braces certainly are not consistent from left to right some looks as though they hell with it put it in LOL 2) I also feel that a comment I mentioned some back some where maybe here ? that it's possible the guitar is over built from what I'm seeing I feel it's very true and in viewing the bracing you might also. which explains the low volume output of this guitar . The dang is built like Tank .... ????? ok so here my photobucket link to the pics let me know your thoughts :) http://s775.photobucket.com/user/agradeleous234/library/Epiphone%20DR500mce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickthemiller Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Hey there ok I just uploaded photo's from the DR500MCE After looking at it and lots of wondering I'm having a few thoughts 1) ones is that the bracing is not hand carved not saying it Epi says they are I don't recall. The braces certainly are not consistent from left to right some looks as though they hell with it put it in LOL 2) I also feel that a comment I mentioned some back some where maybe here ? that it's possible the guitar is over built from what I'm seeing I feel it's very true and in viewing the bracing you might also. which explains the low volume output of this guitar . The dang is built like Tank .... ????? ok so here my photobucket link to the pics let me know your thoughts :) http://s775.photobuc...hone%20DR500mce Well it doesn't look overbuilt to me - it is a bit rough and ready in places but I'm not sure that that would make a deal of difference to the loudness of the guitar. Some builders do make sure that all braces are smoothed with a bit of sanding after they are scalloped with a chisel. I do this as a matter of course when I get a new acoustic - I stick my hand in as far as I can with a sanding block (spongy type) and give it a quick once over. I can't say it makes much difference if any. In fact I think (cannot prove) that if the inner surface of the top is left rough (unsanded) it gives the guitar a more mellow tone. Just my two penny worth!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agradeleous Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 I hear ya some how the bracing thickness makes me wonder about the over built part the way it's scalloped . But I can't remember if the thicker shaping ( which I can't say it's thicker nothing to go by yet) makes the guitar louder or softer. I'm pretty sure one of links above mentioned that . I have to go back and see. I'll check out the BlueRidge and compare . Funnzies 😄 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaceWindu57 Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Hey there ok I just uploaded photo's from the DR500MCE After looking at it and lots of wondering I'm having a few thoughts 1) ones is that the bracing is not hand carved not saying it Epi says they are I don't recall. The braces certainly are not consistent from left to right some looks as though they hell with it put it in LOL 2) I also feel that a comment I mentioned some back some where maybe here ? that it's possible the guitar is over built from what I'm seeing I feel it's very true and in viewing the bracing you might also. which explains the low volume output of this guitar . The dang is built like Tank .... ????? ok so here my photobucket link to the pics let me know your thoughts :) http://s775.photobuc...hone%20DR500mce Thanks for the great photos! I too own an Epiphone DR500 MCE, and I'm glad I made the choice. I really like the sound of the guitar unplugged, I have only had it plugged in once just to test the electronics; I'm waiting to get an acoustic amp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted April 8, 2015 Share Posted April 8, 2015 Bracing, however, involves far more than just its footprint. How the braces are carved will have a large impact on a guitar's voice and stability. It is a matter of how dramatically the ends are tapered, whether they are tucked under the kerfing or not, how deep the braces are scalloped (if scalloped at all), and such. It is amazing to think that at one time Gibson carved the tone bars individually for each J-200 based on differences in the top wood. Helps though when you only make 100 or so guitars a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agradeleous Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Thanks MW , glad you like yours it is a great guitar , I had my luthier work mine over good new bone nut and saddle mine did have not have a saddle compensation so he fixed that dressed the frets and now she slides around like a glider plan . I'm doing a temporary install of the miniflex 2 mic system to hear how she sounds so look for it if your interested. 😄 Ags Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agradeleous Posted April 9, 2015 Share Posted April 9, 2015 Yeah zomby your right . If look at my pics you'll see one the short braces on the left I think or is right lol any who the ones off the sound hole in the body curve . You see one shaped differently on the other side more matched .. By design or goof up ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliffenstein Posted April 10, 2015 Author Share Posted April 10, 2015 On April 4th, I sent the following message through the Epiphone website: I own the AJ-220S and the Inspired By 1964 Texan and am exceedingly happy with both. I'm wondering what kind of X-Bracing you use on these. Is it standard or forward shifted? Or is it different depending on the model? Please let me know when you can. I just received the following reply: Hello, Thanks for writing!! These are both standard X bracing. Best regards, Vince Vincent Wynne Gibson Customer Service So there you have it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agradeleous Posted April 10, 2015 Share Posted April 10, 2015 Bummer what a way to end it ..... Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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