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Dual action truss rod?

#1 User is offline   G Mac 

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Posted 18 August 2016 - 06:46 PM

Hey, all! I have a Les Paul Standard Plus Top Pro and was told that it has a dual action truss rod. Having never heard of such, I am hoping that someone can provide me with some insight on how it works and how to properly adjust it. I am getting some fret buzz around the second and third fret area. I was also told that the neck should be set up as flat as possible. This seems a bit counterintuitive to me in that I have always been under the impression that the neck should have a bit of relief. Am I so old that this is no longer the case? Any advice is greatly appreciated.
Gibson 1966 ES-330
Fender Mexican Stratocaster(mid 90's)
Epiphone Les Paul Standard Plus Top Pro(2014)
Oscar Schmidt OC11 CE classical
Fender Squier Jazz bass(2008-ish)
1981 Music Man RD112 50
Carvin V3 MC 50 watt, single 12"
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#2 User is online   Pinch 

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Posted 19 August 2016 - 05:14 AM

My understanding is that single action rods can only bend the neck backwards, whereas you can create artificial relief with a dual action rod... or something like that. Whatever the mechanics, it will give you added flexibility. But does the Plustop Pro actually come with a dual-action truss rod? I have one, too. I SHOULD know ;)

Re: relief: I find that the Plustop Pro plays best - IMHO - with less relief than I'm used to. Not dead straight, but fairly close - and I'm no dead straight, shredder neck fan.

Congrats on the guitar. Love mine.
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#3 User is offline   kidblast 

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Posted 19 August 2016 - 05:52 AM

I am getting some fret buzz around the second and third fret area.

yea, that could be due to a bit of back bow happening, it doesn't take much.

edit: then again, you could always check for a high fret on the fourth or fret or there abouts.


I don't have any dual action TR equipped guitars, so I'd be just as clueless...
/Ray
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#4 User is online   Pinch 

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Posted 19 August 2016 - 06:13 AM

I adjusted one once (that I know of). I just did what I always do - adjusted it (in small increments, give it time to settle) until I had the relief I wanted.

Btw, mine came pretty much dead straight, so I added a touch of relief. Haven't heard anyone say the Plustop Pro "should" be dead straight. I find, however, that it CAN be very straight and still perfectly playable, which is nice for those so inclined.
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#5 User is offline   G Mac 

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Posted 19 August 2016 - 04:55 PM

Hey and Thanks for your replies! I have given said rod a touch of left and it seems to have helped. I've got to be careful though as too much relief causes a buzz on the first string at the fifteenth fret; only that note and only that string. I filed down the sixteenth fret a bit and made it better but, I didn't want to take off too much. Straightening the neck made that issue disappear but caused the buzz at two and three. It's not a terrible buzz so, I guess I'll leave it alone. The guitar plays well and sounds fantastic. I've had it for about a year and it is a pleasing contrast to my Strat; kudos to Epiphone. Thanks again for your help!
Gibson 1966 ES-330
Fender Mexican Stratocaster(mid 90's)
Epiphone Les Paul Standard Plus Top Pro(2014)
Oscar Schmidt OC11 CE classical
Fender Squier Jazz bass(2008-ish)
1981 Music Man RD112 50
Carvin V3 MC 50 watt, single 12"
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#6 User is offline   capmaster 

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Posted 19 August 2016 - 05:22 PM

To my information your Epiphone Les Paul has a standard, single-action trussrod. As long as the neck is basically fine, you won't need reverse action. I think I would start worrying if my only guitar with a dual-action trussrod would ever call for bending the neck forward. :unsure:

Close to straight is what I set up all of my guitars. It usually works best.

By the way, the Epiphone Les Paul 1960 Tribute Plus of mine came with a slightly overstretched neck from the factory. It was a matter of a few days only until it was fine, and she took just some tiny correction of neck relief over the three and a half years I now own he.

View PostG Mac, on 19 August 2016 - 04:55 PM, said:

Hey and Thanks for your replies! I have given said rod a touch of left and it seems to have helped. I've got to be careful though as too much relief causes a buzz on the first string at the fifteenth fret; only that note and only that string. I filed down the fifteenth fret a bit and made it better but, I didn't want to take off too much. Straightening the neck made that issue disappear but caused the buzz at two and three. It's not a terrible buzz so, I guess I'll leave it alone. The guitar plays well and sounds fantastic. I've had it for about a year and it is a pleasing contrast to my Strat; kudos to Epiphone. Thanks again for your help!

This seems a bit strange to me. Also consider that buzz at the 15th fret would mean that the 16th fret is high, making the 15th low in comparison. Take a look at your Les Paul guitar - the 16th fret wire is right above where the neck meets the body. At this position tiny neck humps are not uncommon.
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#7 User is online   Pinch 

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Posted 19 August 2016 - 11:16 PM

You're welcome, G Mac. Enjoy the guitar!
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#8 User is offline   G Mac 

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 12:50 AM

To capmaster: My bad! I actually filed the sixteenth fret on my guitar and have amended my post to reflect that. Thanks for your other advice!

To pinch: Thanks! I really do love the guitar! It's transparent blue and as blue is my favorite color...it looks as good as it sounds! Those ProBucker pickups are very nice and the coil tap feature really adds to the guitar's versatility. At this point, I don't think I'd want a Les Paul without it. What think you of yours?

Funny story as an aside... I found the buzz at the fifteenth fret while trying the guitar when it came to the shop where I bought it. The first thing I played on it was the opening from King Crimson's "Red", the first phrase of which ends on that high B. If you don't know the song,try to find it or buy it on iTunes and imagine that last note going "ffrrrrttt!". Still cracks me up but, I'm a bit nutty like that.

Thanks again to all! Cheers!
Gibson 1966 ES-330
Fender Mexican Stratocaster(mid 90's)
Epiphone Les Paul Standard Plus Top Pro(2014)
Oscar Schmidt OC11 CE classical
Fender Squier Jazz bass(2008-ish)
1981 Music Man RD112 50
Carvin V3 MC 50 watt, single 12"
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#9 User is offline   rct 

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 07:15 AM

Moving trusses back and forth, filing frets, dodging buzzes all over the neck. All symptoms of YER STRINGS ARE TOO LOW. When you think your strings are perfect, they are usually too low, and most guitar players just can't get through their heads and hands that lifting your strings actually makes it easier to play accurately.

rct
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#10 User is online   Pinch 

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 11:11 AM

G Mac: what I think of mine? Love it. I too really dig the ProBuckers. Happy playing!
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#11 User is offline   G Mac 

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 04:27 PM

Okay... I feel stupid! I looked at my guitar last night and realized that the high B is at the nineteenth fret, not the fifteenth! So, actually I filed the twentieth fret to fix the buzz at the nineteenth. Sorry for any confusion!

To rct: I am using D'Addario EXL 115's (.011-.049) and am not a novice. Most people hate playing my guitars because the action is too high. As it turns out, the twentieth fret was noticeably higher when checked with a straight edge and the filing did help it. To your credit, raising the action a hair removed it completely. I am merely trying to get this guitar to play well. I had the guitar set up by a "pro" thinking perhaps I had missed something and he was the one telling me that the neck had too much relief and that it should be flat. Also .he told me that the guitar has a dual action truss rod which is what prompted me to begin this thread. Since then, I have made some minor adjustments(such as putting some relief back in) and am very nearly satisfied. Thanks for your suggestion/advice however. My apologies if I sound a bit petulant; I do feel that you are trying to help.

Once again, my apologies for my inattention to detail and Thanks for all your help!
Gibson 1966 ES-330
Fender Mexican Stratocaster(mid 90's)
Epiphone Les Paul Standard Plus Top Pro(2014)
Oscar Schmidt OC11 CE classical
Fender Squier Jazz bass(2008-ish)
1981 Music Man RD112 50
Carvin V3 MC 50 watt, single 12"
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#12 User is offline   capmaster 

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 04:39 PM

View PostG Mac, on 20 August 2016 - 04:27 PM, said:

... I had the guitar set up by a "pro" thinking perhaps I had missed something and he was the one telling me that the neck had too much relief and that it should be flat. Also .he told me that the guitar has a dual action truss rod which is what prompted me to begin this thread. ...

How did a "pro" come to call an Epiphone Les Paul truss rod dual-action? :-k
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#13 User is offline   G Mac 

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 05:05 PM

Great question,capmaster. The guy has a repair shop in my area and is basically the only game in town. He told me that all the new Epiphones have a dual action rod. Where he got that info, I know not. Suffice it to say, I'll be doing my own work from now on with help and advice from all of you when needed. Thanks!
Gibson 1966 ES-330
Fender Mexican Stratocaster(mid 90's)
Epiphone Les Paul Standard Plus Top Pro(2014)
Oscar Schmidt OC11 CE classical
Fender Squier Jazz bass(2008-ish)
1981 Music Man RD112 50
Carvin V3 MC 50 watt, single 12"
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#14 User is offline   capmaster 

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 05:27 PM

[blush] I have to beg your pardon.

There are Epiphones featuring dual-action truss rods, and possibly lots of them. I didn't research enough up to now to say anything specific about your guitar, but maybe even mine has it and I just didn't find out yet. :blink:

I feel deeply embarassed... [crying]
DVCVNT VOLENTEM FATA NOLENTEM TRAHVNT
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#15 User is offline   capmaster 

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 05:59 PM

My memory seems to fail, too. [crying] I just found a thread from April 2014 on this topic where an Epiphone dual-action truss rod was pictured compared to a single-action one, and I even asked a question in that thread if there's an overview of models featuring them. Well, there seems to be none... :unsure:

When looking at the Epiphone webpage, it says about the Les Paul Standard Plustop PRO's truss rod "adjustable" without further comment. Then there are models to be found where dual action is mentioned, and no information about some others. The critical point is that the latter include mine as well as the one with a dual-action truss rod mentioned in the topic from April 2014.

I found that there is much confusion about Epiphone double-action truss rods on the web... :o
DVCVNT VOLENTEM FATA NOLENTEM TRAHVNT
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#16 User is offline   rct 

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 07:23 PM

I'm not buying one until they have a triple action truss rod.

rct
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#17 User is offline   capmaster 

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 07:29 PM

View Postrct, on 20 August 2016 - 07:23 PM, said:

I'm not buying one until they have a triple action truss rod.

rct

Quadruple action would be perfect: back, forth, twist clockwise, twist counterclockwise. [biggrin]
DVCVNT VOLENTEM FATA NOLENTEM TRAHVNT
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#18 User is offline   capmaster 

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 07:32 PM

View Postrct, on 20 August 2016 - 07:23 PM, said:

I'm not buying one until they have a triple action truss rod.

rct

Forgot to mention that Firebirds have a conventional single-action truss rod. You better tell your wife about that. ;)
DVCVNT VOLENTEM FATA NOLENTEM TRAHVNT
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#19 User is offline   G Mac 

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Posted 20 August 2016 - 08:22 PM

Well, gents(and/or ladies if there are any)... it seems as though things have gotten wacky up in here!

to capmaster: No apology necessary. As you point out, there seems to be a fair amount of confusion regarding this issue. With all of us working on it, I'm sure we'll find the solution.

to rct: That's VERY funny! Perhaps Gibson/Epiphone should invent a robotic truss rod and end the controversy. I definitely think we need more battery operated machine controlled things to potentially go wrong.

I think I'll call Epiphone on Monday and see if someone there can answer my/our questions. Best to everybody!
Gibson 1966 ES-330
Fender Mexican Stratocaster(mid 90's)
Epiphone Les Paul Standard Plus Top Pro(2014)
Oscar Schmidt OC11 CE classical
Fender Squier Jazz bass(2008-ish)
1981 Music Man RD112 50
Carvin V3 MC 50 watt, single 12"
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#20 User is offline   bobouz 

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Posted 27 August 2016 - 10:50 PM

On a dual action rod, the center point of it's adjustment is like having your car in neutral - it's essentially doing nothing. Turn clockwise, and it will decrease relief as in any traditional rod until you can turn no further.

But turn counterclockwise, and here's where things differ. As you pass through the neutral center-point, you will start to feel the rod's tension increase again (while neck relief is increasing), until the rod will no longer turn (as opposed to the tension continuing to decrease in a single action rod).
> Gibsons: '22 "A" Mandolin / '66 ES 125T / '90 Tennessean / '00 J-100 Xtra
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