Gibson CS Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 I posted this at the bottom of a thread. I dont know how many saw it. So im posting a new thread with the same thoughts... Alot of times here, people who are questioning the authenticity of their Gibson are told to call Gibbo and have them verify the serial number on the guitar. How do you know the knock off artists arent using numbers that already exist? How many times have we read on this forum guys describing their guitar, and posting the serial number for all in cyber space to read. So the crooks know the type ...ie, LP Standard amber...# 0*******4 Whats to stop them from using that number on a cheap knock off? You call Gibson worried you are getting a sub-par instrument. Give them the number. They check it out and BINGO!...It all checks out. Youre happy. You have the American legend within your grasp. Or do you? I noticed Raptor for example blurring out the serial number on his blue beauty Gibson. Smart move. Dont give these jerks anymore information then they already have. I find some fake Gibbys are obvious to spot. Some on the other hand are well done...very well done. These guys are getting good. If you can make a knock off for a few hundred and sell it for thousands....its a good gig! Guys dont give out your serial number on here, or any other place. I have learned a valuable lesson since joining this forum. Dont give too many details. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plank_Spanker Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 I never post pics of any of my guitars with serial numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignatius Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 This was exactly the point I tried to make with the Custom Admin moderator because he or she often not only verifies the serial number but also describes the guitar that comes up by color, model, etc. I don't think you even need pictures then: if I'm a counterfeiter and I see a serial number that is associated "Les Paul Standard, Cherry Burst, standard hardware" or whatever, then as deepblue says, "Bingo! I got me an easy-to-sell counterfeit on my hands." I remain mystified that Gibson is allowing a gigantic storehouse of serial numbers and accompanying descriptions to build up on the web in one place. On top of that, what if the counterfeit is successfully verified before the real one? The owner of the authentic Gibson may find him- or herself unable to prove authenticity in certain unusual, yes, but still possible situations. Ignatius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spot Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 I agree 100%.. If you have a Serial Number question just e-mail Gibson. I got a reply within the hour! :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Plains Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 I've posted two of my serial numbers...well, sort of. I changed a few numbers first. I'd never post the real ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleSixx Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 Good, points from everyone. The faking of good serial numbers has come to mind several times. Sadly some people will do anything for a money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sycephant Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 Even sadder is people are getting ripped off by these guys. Imagine paying thousands for something you've been working for for so long and then finding out it's a fake. I just couldn't imagine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPCollector Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 OK, I seem to disagree with the motivated concern of some of the posters here. To me, it's more of a "buyer beware" scenario. Sure, counterfiting is a problem for all of us and the internet gives thieves more info to make their scams more believable...........but the internet gives buyers more info too. Information on how to authenticate a Les Paul has never been easier. It's my feeling that a buyer should do more reasearch and learn to spot a fake before he/she invests their hard earned money. A knowlegable buyer is the real way to stop these counterfiters. If nobody bought a fake LP, then the bad guys would quit making fake LP's. Besides, if you buy a new one from an authorized Gibson dealer, you won't have to be concerned with this..........J/k! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvette1980 Posted March 7, 2008 Share Posted March 7, 2008 and lets not forget that private reserve guitars have all the serial numbers of their guitars on their web site. and pictures that they can go by to counterfit from Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ibis Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 I've just gone back to my post asking the Custom Admin to verify my R7 and changed the serial number to *-**** using the edit button. This will hopefully deny one more serial to the scumbags, if its not already too late! Can I suggest that we all do that to our s/n postings, just to be safe? I see there is a new sticky from the admin that says s/n verification can no longer be done in these forums, that you have to email Gibson. Unfortunate, but probably a wise move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stewie Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 Deepblue: With all respect for your thoughts, I think it is just as easy to go to the Gibson Website and look at the format of a serial number. They detail how it should be for a specific year. The would be counterfeiter can then just make up a number that is a legitimate serial number for a Gibson guitar. As you know not many people will actaully go to Gibson to verify that the color and style match the serial. Most will check the serial to the Gibson website. If it is a Gibson serial they are happy. I know what you are saying, let's not make it any easier for the rip off artists. You have to realize as well if someone sends 2000 bucks over there for a fake, that could be a years wages for someone. It IS big money to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thundergod Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 yes they are getting better by the second, and i think theres a thread about a fake, where one of you guys told the ebay seller his guiitar was a fake, he answered saying "why is it a fake? the TRC has 2 screws and the serial number is good"... yes but the same guitar could be found in a lot of chinese webs at 249,99... What i dont get is why they dont make their own brand of guitars... they sell llots of guitars (cheapo good for nothing guitars) at a price similar to the other cheap guitars... so they could make money and a name of their own if they put "china" instead of "gibson" on the headstock... I just dont get it... why not go legitimate? If they sold those guitars for 2 or 3K i would understand... but they dont, so it makes no sense to me. Makes less sense that our people, no the chinese, but our people, are buying guitars at 249 and selling them at 2 and 3K to their own people... I hope those chinamen realized they can sell this guitars as gibsons and fenders, for more (the new ones i find very hard to tell if they are fakes or not). Because when they start selling them for 600 or more, then the assholes that buy them in the states, europe and even here to sell them as real ones, wont have the kind of profit they do now, and will just stop and go find another thing to sell (like purses or something... ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thundergod Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 OK' date=' I seem to disagree with the motivated concern of some of the posters here. To me, it's more of a "buyer beware" scenario. Sure, counterfiting is a problem for all of us and the internet gives thieves more info to make their scams more believable...........but the internet gives buyers more info too. Information on how to authenticate a Les Paul has never been easier. It's my feeling that a buyer should do more reasearch and learn to spot a fake before he/she invests their hard earned money. A knowlegable buyer is the real way to stop these counterfiters. If nobody bought a fake LP, then the bad guys would quit making fake LP's. Besides, if you buy a new one from an authorized Gibson dealer, you won't have to be concerned with this..........J/k! [/quote'] thats what i ve been trying to say in a lot of threads... anyway, i´m kind of worried about something else... what if some of this sellers and makers make it to this forums (and all serious lp forums)... they would have lots of info about what to do and what not to... for example, in another thread someone has put some pics of a guitar that clearly is a fake, what if (i am not saying he is doing this, i am taking his thread as an example!), what if he puts this pics so that all of us go and say "the bridge is wrong -epi type, the headstock is wrong, the trc has 3 screws instead of 2, the sn should have * numbers, custom shop guitars dont come with "made in the usa" and "normal" serial number... and so on... maybe we are giving this burglars just the info they need to start making harder to notice fakes. They dont even need to be a registered user to read this... so, isnt there a way to have a place to go with this kind of thread (about fakes and how to spot them), where we could post pics and everything else, but for registered users only? Its disturbing... really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DuaLeaD Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 On top of that, what if the counterfeit is successfully verified before the real one? The owner of the authentic Gibson may find him- or herself unable to prove authenticity in certain unusual, yes, but still possible situations. *Hugs his Les Paul* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPCollector Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 thats what i ve been trying to say in a lot of threads... anyway' date=' i´m kind of worried about something else... what if some of this sellers and makers make it to this forums (and all serious lp forums)... they would have lots of info about what to do and what not to... for example, in another thread someone has put some pics of a guitar that clearly is a fake, what if (i am not saying he is doing this, i am taking his thread as an example!), what if he puts this pics so that all of us go and say "the bridge is wrong -epi type, the headstock is wrong, the trc has 3 screws instead of 2, the sn should have * numbers, custom shop guitars dont come with "made in the usa" and "normal" serial number... and so on... maybe we are giving this burglars just the info they need to start making harder to notice fakes. They dont even need to be a registered user to read this... so, isnt there a way to have a place to go with this kind of thread (about fakes and how to spot them), where we could post pics and everything else, but for registered users only? Its disturbing... really.[/quote'] If the counterfiters were to duplicate a Les Paul to very exacting standards that could fool a knowledgable customer......the counterfiters couldn't make any money due to the high cost of producing the fake. Now, let's be honest......it's our own greed and lack of knowledge that allows us to think that we can purchase a Gibson Les Paul for under $500. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPCollector Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 On top of that' date=' what if the counterfeit is successfully verified before the real one? The owner of the authentic Gibson may find him- or herself unable to prove authenticity in certain unusual, yes, but still possible situations.[/quote'] This is NEVER gonna happen......... There is no authentication process as you have described it. It just doesn't work that way. The owner of the real Les Paul can never be affected by the fake. Only the buyer can be affected by a fake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPCollector Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 Oh, and by the way............... There are those of us who are pissed that you guys forced Gibson to stop the open exchange of information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibson CS Posted March 8, 2008 Author Share Posted March 8, 2008 LPCollector.... First off, youre welcome! Second....How much more do you need to know?...Would you like to know the weather the day your LP was made?What the craftsman had for brekky that day? Remember the war? Loose lips sink ships? The more info you post online the more ammo you give the con artists. If you really need to know details about your Gibson, write them, call them. The quality of the fakes is getting better and better. I have read one way to tell a fake is Gibson uses 2 screws for the truss rod cover. Some fakes use 3 screws....Great!...now these guys know what NOT to do next time. Thats just 1 example. You seem to have many lovely LP's....Possibly more in the future? You can thank us guys your "pissed" at later......again....youre welcome! :D/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignatius Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 This is NEVER gonna happen......... There is no authentication process as you have described it. It just doesn't work that way. The owner of the real Les Paul can never be affected by the fake. Only the buyer can be affected by a fake. Hey LPCollector-- (Sorry in advance for the length) I think you misunderstood my point' date=' probably because I was not as clear as I meant to be. Let me give you an example of what I mean: right now, I have seen literally dozens of guitars supposedly verified because their supposed owners posted here and the information given by the Admin matched the description of the guitar the person is holding. Everyone here that has done this now assumes that guitar is "authentic" because it matched a serial number. According to everything I have read, there is no reason to make this assumption because there are ample ways to create a fake Gibson serial number. So, every guitar that has been "verified" as authentic by Admin here actually could be a fake. There is no way to know based on the fact that person X posted a serial number and asked Gibson to explain its meaning. Now, let's say someone calls Gibson or a local guitar shop tomorrow (or emails or whatever) with a Les Paul and a serial number and happens to talk to me, a person who just saw the exact same "authentic" serial number explained on the web in the last couple weeks. But the person who posted the serial number here says he is in Ontario, and the guy with the Les Paul in front of me is in Austin, Texas. Which one of those guitars is the fake? The correct answer actually is: maybe neither of them. Why? Well, because Admin once responded here to a post requesting serial number info with the information that a single serial number matched three different guitars in the database all made within the last ten years and all from the same model line. On the other hand, [b']both[/b] of the guitars--the one on the web and the one in my shop--might now be fake because I have no way to verify either as a unique serial number. Therefore, if I am a local shop owner, I have to assume the one in front of me at least might be a fake, or else I am in danger of getting burned. And that assumption just lowered the value of your guitar as an owner/seller. That just seems to me to be logical, and frankly, if I were to buy a used Gibson in the near future, I would run a search here to check if the serial number has come up. To me, this just makes common sense. And until very recently, I then would have assumed that the person trying to sell the guitar to me was passing a fake. But I realized in the last couple days that in fact, the fake could be the one that was posted about here. And that potential confusion just lowered the worth of the Les Paul, and that worth is lowered more if it is authentic (because it cost more to begin with) than it hurts the value of the fake. I know, I know, you should know what you're buying, but to be honest, how many people will even know about these sorts of problems in the typical store? I'm serious; to say that average Joe Buyer needs to know all this stuff about where screws are placed in the '94 model, what tuners should look like on an '85, etc. is just crazy. These are not vintage guitars we are talking about: we are talking about guitars that are new or near new. These are often the first good guitars that people will invest in, and they don't even know that Gibson only honors warranties of new guitars sold by authorized dealers. How then do you expect them to know all the ins and outs of inlays, pickup post screws, etc.? People believe serial numbers prove something. Gibson has demonstrated that all they do is serve as fancy order numbers. Gibson can tell people they shouldn't think they way they do, but given that Gibson is in the minority in this use of serial numbers, then I don't think Gibson has much of a leg to stand on here. There is a real easy way to fix this. Generate unique, random serial numbers for every guitar you make from here on out. This is a no-brainer, and it explains where the VIN system came from on cars. It makes every car (and its history) easy to trace, and it makes it almost impossible to sell seconds, fakes, or defectives as new. And I'm not sure, by the way, how this concern limits the open exchange of information. As far as I know, all you need to do is call or email Gibson privately to find this same information out. All we were saying is that Gibson should not have a huge public database of serial numbers (and their description explanations) freely available in one place on the web. And I'm adding that as far as I can see, no one should assume that those serial numbers posted here prove that the guitar you have is authentic. And I bet that last sentence will surprise a lot of people who posted their original questions here. Ignatius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPCollector Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 LPCollector.... First off' date=' youre welcome! Second....How much more do you need to know?...Would you like to know the weather the day your LP was made?What the craftsman had for brekky that day?[/quote'] There are times that the model designation can tell you subtle nuances. See this post where the model designation verified the sellers claims that my new guitar is in fact a CA Brazilian...pretty useful to know since it increases the value of my new guitar. http://forums.gibson.com/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=1643 Remember the war? Loose lips sink ships?The more info you post online the more ammo you give the con artists. If you really need to know details about your Gibson' date=' write them, call them. The quality of the fakes is getting better and better. I have read one way to tell a fake is Gibson uses 2 screws for the truss rod cover. Some fakes use 3 screws....Great!...now these guys know what NOT to do next time. Thats just 1 example.[/quote'] Quite true, however there is a point at which the counterfiters connot possibly duplicate a LP exactly. Why? Because the cost of creating such a duplicate copy would be financially unfeasable for the crooks. If they were to produce such a copy it would be too expensive to make any money on. It's that simple. In a transaction of a high end guitar, it is VERY common place for the buyer to request pictures of the neck pickup cavity and the control cavity. The seller of this high end guitar knows what the buyer is looking for and always agees and takes the pictures. If the seller of this high end guitar won't take the requested pictures, a educated buyer immediately walks away. There is WAY more to authenticating a LP than it's outward visual apperance and serial number...... if one knows what to look for...again, self education is the key to stopping this fraud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibson CS Posted March 8, 2008 Author Share Posted March 8, 2008 excellent points LP collector ebay will always have fakes, and people will always take avantage of other people, wether we disclose info or not :( ive said before, buying on ebay is a good thing , but you dont get to feel the mojo, and you have to make sure that you do your research for example, i bought a doubleneck new on ebay for 2,000, i asked for pics of the COA, pics of the case, pics of the back of the headstcok, pics of the egde of the frets, and pictures of the bridge it was no problem for him, and he was polte and prompt no i wouldnt buy a guitar with out feeling the mojo, but for a GREAT deal, sometimes you just gotta do it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibson CS Posted March 8, 2008 Author Share Posted March 8, 2008 LP... Understood my friend. There are some guys on this forum and others who are quite well informed. They know Gibson inside and out. I myself owe them a hats off...they have set me straight on a few topics. Im sure you are one of those gentleman. Theres not a fake Gibson out there that could get past you... You guys arent the ones im concerned about. What about the kid thats saving his money. Or the adult for that matter. Working his/her butt off to get the Gibson of their dreams. A person who $1500 or more seems at times so far out of their reach. But they save and dream, and one day they see that Gibson within their price range. At last they get it home...and blammo!...Its not real. I wont buy used....its not going to happen. I can afford new ( Thank God ) Some cant. If I were in these peoples shoes ( the ones who got taken for a ride ) I think id cry!.....So I say....Stop posting sensitive Gibson related info online. Its simple. Gibson themselves can do more to stop this con job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thundergod Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 I agree with LPCollector in everything, he is right. And my comment about them getting closer is because i have seen lots of really good fakes lately, 3 screw trc and epi bridges are gone... so, we are getting closer to no longer be able to buy on the net out of pictures... which really doesnt bother me as i preffer to buy a guitar i can play first, and really dont buy anything from ebay, not even strings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPCollector Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 Hi Ignatius, You weren't kidding about the length....I keep re-reading your post and I'm getting a little lost, so I'll try to answer the best I can. Hey LPCollector-- (Sorry in advance for the length) I think you misunderstood my point' date=' probably because I was not as clear as I meant to be. Let me give you an example of what I mean: right now, I have seen literally dozens of guitars supposedly verified because their supposed owners posted here and the information given by the Admin matched the description of the guitar the person is holding. Everyone here that has done this now assumes that guitar is "authentic" because it matched a serial number. According to everything I have read, there is no reason to make this assumption because there are ample ways to create a fake Gibson serial number. So, every guitar that has been "verified" as authentic by Admin here actually could be a fake. There is no way to know based on the fact that person X posted a serial number and asked Gibson to explain its meaning. We agree on this..............except, it is wrong to assume that when the Admin tells someone what a serial number brings up in Gibson's data base as some form of "verification".......it's not! True "Verification" can only be done at the Gibson factory. Now' date=' let's say someone calls Gibson or a local guitar shop tomorrow (or emails or whatever) with a Les Paul and a serial number and happens to talk to me, a person who just saw the exact same "authentic" serial number explained on the web in the last couple weeks. But the person who posted the serial number here says he is in Ontario, and the guy with the Les Paul in front of me is in Austin, Texas. Which one of those guitars is the fake? The correct answer actually is: maybe neither of them. Why? Well, because Admin once responded here to a post requesting serial number info with the information that a single serial number matched three different guitars in the database all made within the last ten years and all from the same model line. On the other hand, [b']both[/b] of the guitars--the one on the web and the one in my shop--might now be fake because I have no way to verify either as a unique serial number. Therefore, if I am a local shop owner, I have to assume the one in front of me at least might be a fake, or else I am in danger of getting burned. And that assumption just lowered the value of your guitar as an owner/seller. If one is a dealer, why would they not be able to verify a guitar that's sitting in front of them?.....I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but when money is invloved I become very astute. Knowledge is our most powerful weapon in this scenario. That just seems to me to be logical' date=' and frankly, if I were to buy a used Gibson in the near future, I would run a search here to check if the serial number has come up. To me, this just makes common sense. And until very recently, I then would have assumed that the person trying to sell the guitar to me was passing a fake. But I realized in the last couple days that in fact, the fake could be the one that was posted about here. And that potential confusion just lowered the worth of the Les Paul, and that worth is lowered more if it is authentic (because it cost more to begin with) than it hurts the value of the fake.[/quote'] I don't understand why the value of the guitar has been decreased? If Admin runs serial number 025560686 the Gibson data base will spew this back: LP6+DBNH1 Which means a 06 LP with a 60's neck, Standard Premuim Plus, Desert Burst, Nickle hardware, quality 1. If that's not the guitar that the guy is trying to sell you and you don't buy it......well, knowledge won. ........or, did I misunderstand the question? I know' date=' I know, you should know what you're buying, but to be honest, how many people will even know about these sorts of problems in the typical store? I'm serious; to say that average Joe Buyer needs to know all this stuff about where screws are placed in the '94 model, what tuners should look like on an '85, etc. is just crazy. These are not vintage guitars we are talking about: we are talking about guitars that are new or near new. These are often the first good guitars that people will invest in, and they don't even know that Gibson only honors warranties of new guitars sold by authorized dealers. How then do you expect them to know all the ins and outs of inlays, pickup post screws, etc.?[/quote'] I have to be kind of hard nosed on this one. Admittedly, I don't know EVERYTHING about Les Pauls. It's out of curiosity of my hobby that I have learned what I know. "Buyer Beware" in my opinion, if your gonna spend this kind of money on a guitar. Case in point, I have never purchased a Strat. Why? Cause I don't know a damn thing about them and so I don't buy them. People believe serial numbers prove something. Gibson has demonstrated that all they do is serve as fancy order numbers. Gibson can tell people they shouldn't think they way they do' date=' but given that Gibson is in the minority in this use of serial numbers, then I don't think Gibson has much of a leg to stand on here. There is a real easy way to fix this. Generate unique, random serial numbers for every guitar you make from here on out. This is a no-brainer, and it explains where the VIN system came from on cars. It makes every car (and its history) easy to trace, and it makes it almost impossible to sell seconds, fakes, or defectives as new.[/quote'] As I showed before, the Gibson serial numbers do mean something. Serial #025560686 when run thru Gibson's data base=LP6+DBNH1. Excatly like a cars' VIN, the combination of the serial number and the model designation combined, tell us everything. The serial number provides the year the guitar was made, where it was made, and where in the production sequence this guitar was made. Then the model designation tells us what the guitar should be. (see previous) I bet alot of people don't know that Gibson has, for a while now, placed a microchip in the neck bases of it's Custom Shop guitars. And I'm not sure' date=' by the way, how this concern limits the open exchange of information. As far as I know, all you need to do is call or email Gibson privately to find this same information out. All we were saying is that Gibson should not have a huge public database of serial numbers (and their description explanations) freely available in one place on the web. And I'm adding that as far as I can see, no one should assume that those serial numbers posted here prove that the guitar you have is authentic. And I bet that last sentence will surprise a lot of people who posted their original questions here.[/quote'] [b]It limits another avenue to get info from and cuts off a direct line to Gibson. We finally had one. I kind of agree about data basing the info, but it goes back to buyer beware for me. Let's say a bad guy reads this forum and duplicates a guitar form it. I believe that if this guitar doesn't have a Warranty card or COA, or the right case,etc. The buyer should be knowldgeable enough to see the signs.[/b] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wicked Twisted Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 who and how can this microchip in a custom shop be read by? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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