rct

It really isn't, especially at the big retailers, especially the last 25 years. The problem is that there is an expectation of higher value applied to anything that is even remotely not what was readily available, therefore "rare". rct

It is no help I'm sure, but late 90's Sam Ash had Black Top/Light Back and Red Top/Light Back standards made for them, called them 58 Specials or something, after a couple that were believed to have existed back then and that were documented in one of the many Les Paul books. One of the Black Tops that I almost bought had double cremes in it. I don't know where this idea that only Dimarzio could do double creme or double white came from, but it just isn't true, both Gibson and Duncan have always done them. At the same time I was in there looking at this sweet Red Top/Light Back with gold hardware but gold covered pickups, something they definitely did not do in 1958 that anyone has documented, I came across TWO Les Paul Classics, made for Sam Ash, Ebony top, Ebony back, all gold hardware including full size big key Gold Grovers at the pointy end, and double white or double cream early '57 Classics. So that was four really odd guitars for Sam Ash in the store at one time. Try to find anything out about any of them and you'll be in the same spot, they just don't really keep all that great track of them I guess. Good luck with it. If it's a great guitar don't worry about the relative rarity of it, just use it and enjoy it! rct

You are the only one with this problem, you will just have to work it out. rct

Greco! That's another name, with Kent. Yes, cheap alternatives. When we were in 6th grade we had Kents and Silvertones and stuff, and we couldn't wait to get "real" guitars! rct

It did happen. Smith in his comprehensive Leo biography, Bacon in one of his Fender books mentions the actual matter. Leo didn't want to, Gibson was doing it. Forrest convinced Leo to put his name to it too. The three or four named companies were served. Some guitars arrived after that in San Francisco and some of each type Fender and Gibson were confiscated and had the headstocks sawn off of them in order to demonstrate penalty. That was it. The rest of us were, for the most part, blissfully unaware because nobody was fawning over Love Rocks and Ibanezii. My wife of 35 years does not play the guitar, but when she sees the later 80s or 90s Bugs Bunny on tevee she still calls him the Ibanez Bugs Bunny. THAT is how strong the "I" word is to Deptford kids that grew up guitar! rct

This is a quote from you: "Let's not forget ibanez made Gibson copies so good that Gibson sued them." That did not happen. You can not sue someone because they make good copies of your protected work. PERIOD. You sue somebody because they are copying your headstock shape, your logo, your script, the things that identify your guitar. Let's not forget that as soon as Ibanez, Tokai, whomever, as soon as they were served that they could not duplicate the big American guitars they suddenly stopped making great strats and teles and les pauls. Why? Why is it that if they couldn't look just like them they wouldn't make them? Why is that? Because they weren't that great to begin with. I have no doubt they were good guitars, I remember them very well even though I never used one, I was in bands using my Teles and Strats and Les Pauls right next to Love Rocks and the Ibanez with the I script that looked exactly like the F in Fender. They may have been good guitars, but they weren't so good they kept making them after they couldn't duplicate the originals. By the time I was married in 1980 nobody around here, and that was a lot of guitar players, was using them at all. rct

I'm sorry bud, that just did not happen. The lawsuit of the 70's was a joint effort by American guitar companies to stop people from duplicating their guitars to such a degree that they could be mistaken at a certain distance. "so good" was never part of it, and never will be. Pee in a can, put a red and white label with a gold circle in the middle, call it Kambulls, you will get sued for making cans of urine, not cans of good soup, because "good" has nothing to do with it. It's a tired story, often repeated by people that (usually) weren't even born at the time, and even more often are selling something from that time. It's pretty interesting that guys my age are not the people buying these so great copies. rct

So much comedy, so little time... rct

If you knew half as much about reading and comprehension as you know about guitar making you might have less trouble in places like this. rct

If you go to the major guitar makers, and I've been to the one in CA and the one in PA but not our hosts but I know they are similar in overall operations, you will see that a pile of blanks for anything is just that, a pile of blanks. If the supplier brings them a pallet of tops they are pretty much what Gibson agreed to buy. They can get right on up to the painting process before they even know what they are painting, and there can be an audible called as they are setting up to spray. The top on that sunburst guitar was easily one production meeting away from being on a natural guitar. It also can't be that all top blemishes are out on the dark edges as most sunbursts leave a good amount of surface grain showing through the center, lightest color. Trees and blank makers don't work like that. Both finishes are hand done, as they are at all of the big makers. While a sunburst requires a specific set of skills that I really wanted to watch but was not allowed to at Fedner, a clear coat requires the same attention. I did get to see some paint work at CFMartin, but that was 15 years ago and while it is still done by hand today the waterfall paint booths and stuff of the modern age are somewhat different and only add to the cost. The real actual cost determinant will be the labor, not the top. Guitar costs and guitar prices are about as far apart as they can get. Natural guitars cost more because quite frankly most guitar players in the price ranges you are talking about really don't want to plunk down 3 or 4k on another sunburst guitar. I know if I was buying a 175 or L-whatever I wouldn't settle for sunburst. Just some observations, but mostly just want to say that in most consumer goods, and especially guitars, the correlation between what you pay for it and what it cost to make is not what you think it is. rct

Collectability has nothing whatsoever to do with how gooda guitar it was. Most of the time, most of the people that collect those guitars didn't have to use them back then. We couldn't wait to get a real guitar and didn't go back. Except Firebirds, I don't know why that is in the list it was not intended as a student guitar like MM and the Jrs. rct

Decent Les Pauls into decent amps at decent gains and volumes played by a fairly well rehearsed and experience guitar player all sound the same: Great. The 59 and 58 and blah blah RI and R12 and RI67 and blah blah blah is all just Feel Good stuff. If you can play, you can play any of them and sound like a guitar player using a Les Paul. That's all that matters. The recorder doesn't know what parts are on it and the listener doesn't care. rct

So is it safe to return to the olden days of intonation being determined by a tuner and not that guys good eye? rct

Gosh thanks! 44 plus years of playing, recording, touring, bars, and bands and I had no idea my intonation was out! rct

If you intonate your guitar by looking at the saddles yer doin it wrong. The tuner says where the saddle stops, no matter what it looks like. rct

Too Shay! [laugh] [laugh] Do I know you? rct

In the olden days when someone bought an SG you could pretty much bet that guitar would be in a bar next weekend, so a case was not only a good idea, it was the norm. Not so much anymore, for a long time now. Guitars are just another shiny Christmas present. rct

Guitars come with a case, that's how we thought, that's how it was. I got really p1ssed off when they first started separating the case from the American guitar. Like, 20 years ago. rct

Not arguing with you, just trying to make sure new people understand how guitars work. I've never had anything but flush tailpieces, therefore, nothing but sever break angle over the bridge. There is no need to have "...very little string bend over the bridge,...". That just isn't true and probably has nothing to do with this guys problems. rct

I'm pretty sure my copy has a one piece back. rct

That's tricky. We didn't have "build quality" back then. It was a brick, a dog, a loaf, or it wasn't. If it wasn't, it was just a great guitar. It was fairly binary, for all three big American makers. At least, where I came from and where I grew up guitar it was like that. I would only say that an old guitar is in no way guaranteed to be built better, feel better, or sound better than a new guitar. A new guitar is in no way guaranteed to be built better, feel better or sound better than an old guitar. I've gigged 50's strats, owned 50s teles, and I've used real PAFs in real 58s and 59 Les Pauls. If I had 5000 dollars to spend on a guitar I would buy a run of the mill American Standard <fill in any of the big three> that felt good to me and spend the rest on taking Mrs out to Jackson WY for a couple weeks. I will never own an old guitar again in my life, I had too many of them to remember them all, and they were just ok. Although, I would like a Leo or George or Tadeo initialed neck heel, that would be cool. rct

An old guitar is an old guitar, and nothing else. rct

I believe the problem in this instance is the neck blank, the heel block, and the body blank can be three different types of wood on an Epiphone. If the paint is going to crack, it sure will be right there if different woods are used. rct

I don't know how many they make a year. It's true they don't make many Vs either. But I always see several Vs at guitar shows, but rarely doublenecks. rct