Blind purchases

[Gibson CS]

Guys & Gals...

One thing I dont understand about the concept of buying guitars online, or ordering them from your local guitar shop. I have read posts on this forum and others about people ordering their guitars and then waiting for them to arrive.

 

How do you know youll like the sound?....isnt that what it all boils down too?

Sure, that beautiful Les Paul with the perfect book matched maple top is stunning to the eye.

But, what about the ear?

 

When ever I buy a guitar, I try as many as I can. I want to hear as close to my version of perfection as I can get.

My new Les Paul...I tried every one in the store at 3 different locations before choosing the one I have now.

It, to me, had the sound and the feel that I was looking for. The fact that it was gorgeous was a bonus.

Some Pauls I tried didnt inspire me. Some were plain sounding or didnt have the certain zing I was looking for.

I knew I had found the one for me, when I could feel the vibrations in my hands and my head at the same time. Its a weird way to describe it, but thats as close as I can get to explaining it to you.

 

Ordering a guitar you get what they give you. True, you can send it back, but thats another month gone by till you receive another to try. I dont want to start arguments here, but there is much more to a guitar then the way it looks.

I have been playing for over 30 years. This is what it boils down to for me...

 

TONE

 

I guarentee one thing. In 40 or 50 years, my Les Paul will be one of the ones that becomes priceless.

Do you know why?

I did the leg work. I used my ears my body and my head to make the purchase. Not just my eyes. It took a while. But if im

going to spend that kind of money, im getiing the best I possibly can.

[FennRx]

All of what you say is true.

 

But for me, it's geography.

 

Fact: In Indianapolis, if i want gibson, then I have to buy from Guitar Center.

Fact: Guitar Center (here at least) ****ing sucks. Worst store ever.

 

They have had the same Ebony Std on hand for the last 3 years! They have usually 1 Historic and 3-4 Classics. Everything else are Studios. I would say my GC has maybe 10 Gibson LPs at any given time. And when I asked them to order in Std Faded models in both the 60s and 50s neck and in different finishes, they told me i would have to pay IN FULL for each one they ordered and then they would refund the money for the ones I didn't like. That is so stupid it makes my brain hurt....

 

And as for buying things off the floor- I don't like to buy a guitar that 50,000 people have touched...especially when that store is filled with nothing but punk-assed teenagers (staff and clientale alike) who know NOTHING about guitars, much less how to play them. And I view it like any other floor item- if it's a demo, I want a discount. And not just 50 bucks off. And don't forget how awful their customer service is. I never see anyone in that store buy anything that costs over 100 bucks. I'm sorry, but if I spend 2 grand on a Classic, I expect to be treated a lot better than the kid who just buys a cord and some picks. I think discriminating against those people is fair.

 

That's when I turned to online dealers. zzounds.com is cheaper and way easier to deal with than GC. I admit that you get what they send. And I also admit that I am not a professional and that my standards are not as high as many people's, but I know what I like. And I can always send it back. It only took zzounds.com 3 days to ship me my LP and my SG. I wish I had more options when it comes to brick and mortar stores, but alas. Gibson, do you hear me?

 

Ok, I'm done ranting...for now =D>/

[Zaphod B]

Deepblue, I've bought guitars in several different ways over the years - through hands-on shopping, online, and even by having a fellow musician acquire for me.

 

Of my current batch:

 

Four of my guitars were bought sight unseen and they are all superb instruments.

 

Four were bought hands-on and they are also great.

 

One was inherited and it's a sentimental keeper.

 

Not a bad one in the bunch. Maybe I got lucky, or maybe I don't know the difference or I'm too easy to please. But I chalk it up to manufacturers with decent quality control and repeatability in their product line.

[flyingarmadillo]

I'll take it to an extreme here and say that buying online is not really different from ordering a custom made guitar from a luthier. You're trusting the reputation of the manufacturer to put out a good product as advertised. On a custom, even though you participate in the design, and specs, you you wait several months or more and still have no guaranty other than the reputation of the builder that it's not going to be a dud the first time you hit the strings. Same thing with online buying assuming it's a new guitar.

[Zaphod B]

I'll take it to an extreme here and say that buying online is not really different from ordering a custom made guitar from a luthier. You're trusting the reputation of the manufacturer to put out a good product as advertised. On a custom' date=' even though you participate in the design, and specs, you you wait several months or more and still have no guaranty other than the reputation of the builder that it's not going to be a dud the first time you hit the strings. Same thing with online buying assuming it's a new guitar. [/quote']

Truth.

 

But when you order online from MF, you can return it if you don't like it!

[Gibson CS]

Ive been told im too fussy. Its a Libra thing I think! lol

We dont have Guitar Center here in Canada.

I though they were the go to guys...I guess I was wrong.

 

Gibson and other guitar makers have made millions of guitars.

No two are the same. They may be close, but there will be subtle differences.

[Ignatius]

Great topic and interesting replies so far.

 

Let me add another question to the pot: at this point, it appears to me that I have one of three choices in buying an ES-335, which seems to be the guitar I am liking most at this point.

 

1. stick to the Chicago area mom-and-pop retailers, most of whom have no ES-335s in stock at all, or the few that do will have only one ES-335 in stock: take it or leave it. Ironically, most of these dealers have hanging there a high-end historic or natural finish guitar still priced at Gibson's MAP. I really don't know that I am ready to pay four grand or more for a guitar at this point in life. If I order from these folks, I pay sales tax and MAP and whatever else little costs crop up, so that leads to option #2.

 

2. buy online: sales tax issues aside (we are supposed to pay that sales tax on our own, of course--IRS disclaimer there), I probably can get a deal better than MAP from a place like Sweetwater or Wildwood guitars if I talk to them on the phone. They have better selection, but as deepblue points out, I don't get to hear the tone or feel the mojo. In that case, even in this grand metropolis of Chicagoland, I am forced to option #3.

 

3. shop and try out guitars at Guitar Center. Hands down, Guitar Center has the best selection of ES-335s that I have seen in a shop, but there are the problems of the snarky staff, the crazed students playing guitars all hours of the day (truant officers should just park at the entrance to GC and pick up the kids as they come in the door),and while I get to hear and feel the guitar, I pay the GC prices, which never seem to budge from MAP on Gibson electrics and which include that dozens (if not hundreds) of people have effectively turned my new purchase into a used guitar through their (often abusive) handling of it.

 

Okay, we all know the above (although I admit I was surprised to see how hard it is to find Gibsons in Chicago when I first moved here; Gibson has to work out a better authorized dealer channel or the Gibson line is going to be lost to up-and-coming musicians). Here is my conundrum:

 

If I buy online, I am choking out the local dealers who have let me try out Gibsons in the first place. At some point, most of the United States is no longer going to have access to hands-on interaction with a range of Gibson models if we all snub Guitar Center and they stop carrying anything but a handful of LP standards.

 

If I buy from GC, I drive another nail in the coffin of local dealers and lose all that knowledge and skill they have. But if local dealers don't carry a broader range of Gibsons, I have no guitar to buy from them to begin with.

 

Short version: why is Gibson making it so hard to find a variety of their guitars anywhere these days?

 

Ignatius

[Ignatius]

Ive been told im too fussy. Its a Libra thing I think! lol

We dont have Guitar Center here in Canada.

I though they were the go to guys...I guess I was wrong.

 

Gibson and other guitar makers have made millions of guitars.

No two are the same. They may be close' date=' but there will be subtle differences.[/quote']

 

No kidding! Deepblue, I'm a Libra, too!

 

Ignatius

[TheLiveSoundGuy]

Short version: why is Gibson making it so hard to find a variety of their guitars anywhere these days?

 

Ignatius

 

 

$x' date='xxx.98[/b']

[Ignatius]

 

 

$

 

 

 

 

 

Hey, I hear you TLSG, but I wonder how long this policy works before it starts to bite you in the butt. If enough people don't know your product, they don't know they need it, and they don't even try to buy it.

 

Case in point: if my choices are a $4500 historic ES-335 or a $2000 satin-finish ES-335 and I can't try anything else, I either go with the satin finish--or else go look at vintage re-issue Fenders, don't I? Those I can find just about anywhere these days. And based on the mom-and-pops that I know, I guess no one is biting at the $4500 guitars, and contrary to what's been said elsewhere in the forum, those stores can calculate the cost of that $4500 guitar sitting there on the basis of how many other guitars around it sold in the meantime. I don't think it's any coincidence that the only Gibson "Superstore" in Illinois carries one ES-335, two CS-336s, an ES-345, and about four Les Pauls and a couple SGs. That's a Superstore? It is when the Gibsons ain't moving out the door, and in the whole time I've known that store (which is several months now), those Gibsons have NOT moved an inch closer to the door.

 

Ignatius

[Ignatius]

I caught somebody in the midst of the editing process, apparently. I like your edited version even better, TLSG.

[FennRx]

 

 

Hey' date=' I hear you TLSG, but I wonder how long this policy works before it starts to bite you in the butt. If enough people don't know your product, they don't know they need it, and they don't even try to buy it.

 

Case in point: if my choices are a $4500 historic ES-335 or a $2000 satin-finish ES-335 and I can't try anything else, I either go with the satin finish--or else go look at vintage re-issue Fenders, don't I? Those I can find just about anywhere these days. And based on the mom-and-pops that I know, I guess no one is biting at the $4500 guitars, and contrary to what's been said elsewhere in the forum, those stores can calculate the cost of that $4500 guitar sitting there on the basis of how many other guitars around it sold in the meantime. I don't think it's any coincidence that the only Gibson "Superstore" in Illinois carries one ES-335, two CS-336s, an ES-345, and about four Les Pauls and a couple SGs. That's a Superstore? It is when the Gibsons ain't moving out the door, and in the whole time I've known that store (which is several months now), those Gibsons have NOT moved an inch closer to the door.

 

Ignatius

[/quote']

 

Exactly. If I want to play a Historic or a LP Supreme, I HAVE to order it online because nobody carries them here...obviously because there is no demand. On the other hand, I have absolutely no problem finding just about any Fender model out there. A trip to Sam Ash will yield the American Std, the VG Strat, the SRV and Clapton Strats, etc. I want more retailers with bigger on hand stock for me to play with!

[Sinner 13]

For me its a waiting game.

I WILL NOT support GC no matter how many Gibson's they keep in stock, and the one here in Boston usually has a fair selection.

I would rather bide my time and wait for the "right" guitar to pop up At a local mom&pop operation than to assist in the extinction of these great little stores.

reason #1:

My local shop has a "cash talks" policy, which has gotten me most of my big purchases at cost, and a fair discount for regular purchases, try to get that from GC, or anywhere else.

reason #2:

I am going to restate the obvious here.

The staff at the local GC here are mostly Berklee students who already have a "Holier than thou" Attitude, and little to no customer service skills.

(Get off the cross kids, we need the wood.)

That, and as previously stated.

I don't want to drop that kind of money on a guitar that is, for all intents and purposes, USED, and being sold as new.

At least this way I KNOW what I am buying.

 

 

I have been waiting for almost a year for the phone call the they have finally gotten in a '56 re-issue.

[npelton13]

I thought I'd throw this information out there. Gibson has basically told small music stores to f*** off. I work at a local music store, and while we do carry about 30 Gibson guitars, we will not be receiving any more. Gibson recently told retailers that they have to have at least $100,000 worth of guitars in stock or they cannot be an authorized dealer. This is why GC is running the show. Small music stores just cant afford to keep that many in stock.

[vetter]

This is a fantastic dialogue gentlemen. I have personally found the choices and options to be lacking here in Canada from the local retailers not to mention the unqualified sales staffs. In the last year I have purchased a strat and a robot guitar online and am extremely happy with both. I am all in favour of supporting local businesses and the local economy but you have to draw the line somewhere.

[Ignatius]

I thought I'd throw this information out there. Gibson has basically told small music stores to f*** off. I work at a local music store' date=' and while we do carry about 30 Gibson guitars, we will not be receiving any more. Gibson recently told retailers that they have to have at least $100,000 worth of guitars in stock or they cannot be an authorized dealer. This is why GC is running the show. Small music stores just cant afford to keep that many in stock.[/quote']

 

Are you serious? Holy cats. I truly don't know what to say. As a son of an independent shop owner (not guitars but another area), I know that this is the sort of financial commitment that would utterly cripple a small shop. I am completely floored.

 

As xsinner13x said, I have been leaning toward playing the waiting game, especially since I don't have the cash now anyway. But if this is the case, that Gibson requires a shop to carry $100,00 worth of stock, well, then my Gibson days may be reduced to the vintage one I own because there won't be anyplace to wait anymore.

 

Ignatius

[Ignatius]

Of course, npleton13, the shops could do what Guitar Center does with the Fender exact replicas. If you keep one of those in a case under glass and lock and key, you have a permanent $25,000 in stock sitting there everyday. (Please read this with its intended sarcastic tone regarding both the GC methods of stocking and the crazy cost of those Fender exact replicas.)

 

Ignatius

[saturn]

I know I could have started another topic for my rant, but I think it kind of follows along the same money related thread.

 

How far will this madness of creating "limited edition, special, custom bla bla bla" guitars go? Gibson isn't the only one, but they seem to be the most prolific. Just off the top of my head, I can think of that Gold Top thing they released last year for about 8 Grand. How many Jimmy Page models? The double neck for about $18000.00-$25000.00! Now the Black Beauty. The Jimi Hendicks V for how many thousands? It's all wood and electronics! It's only worth umpteen thousand dollars if someone is willing to fork out that dough for a guitar that will most likely sit in a display case it's entire life! And most of these collectors pieces can only be purchased through Guitar Center. I don't know how many emails I've recieved from GC telling me how I can get on a list to be one of the lucky ones to have the privilidge of spending $18000.00 for some new collectors guitar. Thanks, but even if I had the money, I want a guitar that I'm not afraid to touch.

 

Over and out!

[dslyecix]

I know I could have started another topic for my rant' date=' but I think it kind of follows along the same money related thread.

 

How far will this madness of creating "limited edition, special, custom bla bla bla" guitars go? Gibson isn't the only one, but they seem to be the most prolific. Just off the top of my head, I can think of that Gold Top thing they released last year for about 8 Grand. How many Jimmy Page models? The double neck for about $18000.00-$25000.00! Now the Black Beauty. The Jimi Hendicks V for how many thousands? It's all wood and electronics! It's only worth umpteen thousand dollars if someone is willing to fork out that dough for a guitar that will most likely sit in a display case it's entire life! And most of these collectors pieces can only be purchased through Guitar Center. I don't know how many emails I've recieved from GC telling me how I can get on a list to be one of the lucky ones to have the privilidge of spending $18000.00 for some new collectors guitar. Thanks, but even if I had the money, I want a guitar that I'm not afraid to touch.

 

Over and out!

 

 

 

[/quote']It's true. I understand that collectors items have their place... but IMO they should be "made" as collectors items. Got an original LP from '57? Let THAT be worth something, don't come out with some stupid special replica that's meant to sit in it's case for years.

 

I'd rather they spent time pumping out different models of regular LPs, or even trying out new finishes or something.

[DeVinci13]

I basically have to buy online because we have 1 Gibson dealer in Winnipeg. I go in on a weekly basis (taking lessons there) and they have the exact same guitars every week, week after week for almost a year now. Go in on a Saturday and there are line-ups of punk *** kids into the sound proof testing rooms with the Gibson guitars. The same guitar that if you went to buy they would take off the wall and sell it to you as new. They have no Guitars of the week, Guitars of the month, or anything better than a Standard.

 

What Gibson does is no different than what bicycle companies do to their dealers. In order to be a Trek dealer, or a Cannondale dealer (as examples) you have to buy at least $25k (last time I checked, been a couple of years since I worked in a shop) of their bikes in order to be a dealer. If you can't afford that, then you are stuck with second tier bikes.

 

Basically Gibson is killing the smaller, independent shops.

[Zaphod B]

Basically Gibson is killing the smaller' date=' independent shops. [/quote']

At least it's making them impossible to carry Gibsons.

[Ignatius]

What Gibson does is no different than what bicycle companies do to their dealers. In order to be a Trek dealer' date=' or a Cannondale dealer (as examples) you have to buy at least $25k (last time I checked, been a couple of years since I worked in a shop) of their bikes in order to be a dealer. If you can't afford that, then you are stuck with second tier bikes.

 

Basically Gibson is killing the smaller, independent shops. [/quote']

 

I see your point, but there are two huge differences in what Gibson is doing, at least from my experience. First, $100,000 is a substantially larger investment that $25,000, and it seems to me that those bicycles move a lot faster than the Gibsons hanging on the racks in all these shops. Second, most bike companies try to have at least one dealer in most medium to large communities in the United States. Gibson, even including Guitar Centers, has only a handful of authorized dealers per state as it is. If you get rid of the independent shops in, say, Wisconsin (where I lived for most of my life), there are four Guitar Centers in the entire state, and all of them are clustered in the southeastern end of the state. That means Gibson basically has given up selling guitars in the entire state of Wisconsin.

 

Of course, that's not saying much because Gibson only has nine Gibson dealers in the entire state to begin with, and a tenth if you count an Epiphone-exclusive dealer.

 

Ignatius

[epinder]

Online is the only viable options for us lefties.

 

I visited the local GC a couple of weeks ago and they had at most 6 left handed guitars and 5 of those were MIM strats. Not much of a choice.

 

Oh yeah, there wasn't one left hand Gibson in the store.

[Gibson CS]

The authorized dealer label should be taken with a grain of salt as well.

ie.

I went to L&M here in Canada to get some tension springs for my Stratocaster.

For those who dont know...They are the little black springs that go into the tremolo block

before you insert the tremolo arm. Very tiny...easily lost.

anyway...

I asked for a dozen...This so called "Authorized" dealer had never heard of them.

He didnt know there was a spring in the trem hole.

 

Makes you feel confident doesnt it?

[Zaphod B]

The authorized dealer label should be taken with a grain of salt as well.

ie.

 

Makes you feel confident doesnt it?

I got very lucky recently.

 

I took one of my guitars into a local luthier - one that I had not done business with before. It was for a non-warranty issue on one of my oldies. It's a family-owned shop that repairs all manner of stringed and fretted instruments, gives music lessons, etc. And very reasonable rates.

 

In talking with the owner/head luthier, it turns out that his shop does all the warranty work for the GCs in the area. That means that I have a line to all the Gibson and Fender parts that the "less knowledgeable" employees at the GC may not know about.