Warming up a guitar…...

[milod]

i have an archtop that plays marvelously, etc....

 

Except... at a venue in winter when it's even chilly back stage, tune it, play it, do whatever for half an hour and get in front of the curtain and in the stage lights and it's outa tune at the end of a 3-minute song.

 

m

[retrorod]

Hey, I still have my first tuner...

 

<chortle>

 

A pitch pipe for a 6-string.

 

Got it with my first guitar, summer of '63.

 

m

 

I still have my original pitch pipe....somewhere....minus one pipe...:unsure:summer of '69

[retrorod]

I totally believe in the guitar warming up scene.. No doubt...."Happiness is a warm gun"....

[BluesKing777]

i have an archtop that plays marvelously, etc....

 

Except... at a venue in winter when it's even chilly back stage, tune it, play it, do whatever for half an hour and get in front of the curtain and in the stage lights and it's outa tune at the end of a 3-minute song.

 

m

 

 

 

You could buy a new Les Paul with the 'controversial' auto tuning....

 

On UMGF, (thanks for the entertaining thread!) it is called:

 

http://theunofficialmartinguitarforum.yuku.com/topic/164763/Gibson-Death-Wish#.VKxtKNKUd8E

 

 

 

BluesKing777.

[blindboygrunt]

I still have my original pitch pipe....somewhere....minus one pipe...:unsure:summer of '69

 

Sounds like bryan adams having a breakdown

[fsharp]

Acoustic guitars are made out of 1 or more types of wood, metal (or nylon) strings, glue, and some sort of body finish - nitro or one one the newer types-

Each of those materials has a different coefficient of thermal expansion which means that given some change in temperature they will each expand and contract somewhat differently - metal will grow (or shrink) proportionately more than wood does given the same change in temperature. On top of that, they respond slower or quicker depending on their thickness and their conductivity. So a thin metal string will catch up to a change in air temperature more quickly than a thick wood neck.

 

All this means is that when you move a guitar to a new temperature, the various parts will expand or shrink at different rates - not surprising at all that strings will go out of tune and, until the guitar reaches equilibrium, will require retuning. The easiest way to create crazing in a nitro finish is to move the guitar from a warm place to much colder location quickly. The thin finish will contract more quickly than the wood its attached to, which sets up internal stresses in the finish, ultimately causing hairline cracks. Even the heat from your body will have some effect - you are dumping heat from your hands and fingers into the strings and the neck and probably from your body into the back of guitar.

 

Vibrations in any solid are a function of their geometry and coefficient of stiffness of the material itself. The Coef of stiffness in wood is not highly dependent on temperature. It might be different enough between 0 and 100 deg F. to effect the sound, but not from 65 to 80 and who plays in 0 deg temperatures anyway? All this explains why you most likely need to retune a guitar that's been through a temperature change, but I can't see any thermal or structural reason why a warmed up guitar (ie something that's been played for a couple of minutes) would actually sound better or even different.

 

I know my own muscles need warming up so, most of the time- not always :) after a couple of minutes I play better, but I have trouble believing the guitar itself actually sounds different and I've never noticed it. Sound is so subjective that I probably won't convince anyone other than myself that warming up a guitar (by playing it for a couple of minutes) doesn't change its sound, but I do believe that and I can't find any scientific reason to explain otherwise.

[E-minor7]

Acoustic guitars are made out of 1 or more types of wood, metal (or nylon) strings, glue, and some sort of body finish - nitro or one one the newer types-

Each of those materials has a different coefficient of thermal expansion which means that given some change in temperature they will each expand and contract somewhat differently - metal will grow (or shrink) proportionately more than wood does given the same change in temperature. On top of that, they respond slower or quicker depending on their thickness and their conductivity. So a thin metal string will catch up to a change in air temperature more quickly than a thick wood neck.

 

All this means is that when you move a guitar to a new temperature, the various parts will expand or shrink at different rates - not surprising at all that strings will go out of tune and, until the guitar reaches equilibrium, will require retuning. The easiest way to create crazing in a nitro finish is to move the guitar from a warm place to much colder location quickly. The thin finish will contract more quickly than the wood its attached to, which sets up internal stresses in the finish, ultimately causing hairline cracks. Even the heat from your body will have some effect - you are dumping heat from your hands and fingers into the strings and the neck and probably from your body into the back of guitar.

 

Vibrations in any solid are a function of their geometry and coefficient of stiffness of the material itself. The Coef of stiffness in wood is not highly dependent on temperature. It might be different enough between 0 and 100 deg F. to effect the sound, but not from 65 to 80 and who plays in 0 deg temperatures anyway? All this explains why you most likely need to retune a guitar that's been through a temperature change, but I can't see any thermal or structural reason why a warmed up guitar (ie something that's been played for a couple of minutes) would actually sound better or even different.

I know my own muscles need warming up so, most of the time- not always :) after a couple of minutes I play better, but I have trouble believing the guitar itself actually sounds different and I've never noticed it. Sound is so subjective that I probably won't convince anyone other than myself that warming up a guitar (by playing it for a couple of minutes) doesn't change its sound, but I do believe that and I can't find any scientific reason to explain otherwise.

 

A very good read, thanx -

 

Do I understand that warm pieces of wood don't transmit vibes more efficiently than cold.

 

And wouldn't there be a logic in the components needing time to get into groove before they produce their 'best' sound - not by temperature, but regarding flexibility from the actual stronger and stronger warm-up vibrations.

 

 

[retrorod]

It just stands to reason (to me at least) ...that a warm guitar will 'sound' better than a cold guitar....its just so logical!?!

[62burst]

 

'Wonder if this top showed a temperature change before and after this little demonstration?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hS8L7xPmtP0

 

Hopefully some good vibrations causing some excitation; those little e's bouncing into each other.

 

A big thanks to the Forum's own MR GIBS for the above video. Chladni patterns are an "interesting" and often useful phenomena. Could closely controlled conditions and distribution of filings possibly be used to measure difference in pattern/distribution before and after... ToneRite?

 

 

 

Take a little Fantastic Voyage, south to north, through an approximately one-eighth inch slice of spruce making up a guitar top. Cells of lignin and cellulose several stories tall. A whole lot of shakin' going on in those walls.

[L8_4thesh0w]

Acoustic guitars are made out of 1 or more types of wood, metal (or nylon) strings, glue, and some sort of body finish - nitro or one one the newer types-

Each of those materials has a different coefficient of thermal expansion which means that given some change in temperature they will each expand and contract somewhat differently - metal will grow (or shrink) proportionately more than wood does given the same change in temperature. On top of that, they respond slower or quicker depending on their thickness and their conductivity. So a thin metal string will catch up to a change in air temperature more quickly than a thick wood neck.

 

All this means is that when you move a guitar to a new temperature, the various parts will expand or shrink at different rates - not surprising at all that strings will go out of tune and, until the guitar reaches equilibrium, will require retuning. The easiest way to create crazing in a nitro finish is to move the guitar from a warm place to much colder location quickly. The thin finish will contract more quickly than the wood its attached to, which sets up internal stresses in the finish, ultimately causing hairline cracks. Even the heat from your body will have some effect - you are dumping heat from your hands and fingers into the strings and the neck and probably from your body into the back of guitar.

 

Vibrations in any solid are a function of their geometry and coefficient of stiffness of the material itself. The Coef of stiffness in wood is not highly dependent on temperature. It might be different enough between 0 and 100 deg F. to effect the sound, but not from 65 to 80 and who plays in 0 deg temperatures anyway? All this explains why you most likely need to retune a guitar that's been through a temperature change, but I can't see any thermal or structural reason why a warmed up guitar (ie something that's been played for a couple of minutes) would actually sound better or even different.

 

I know my own muscles need warming up so, most of the time- not always :) after a couple of minutes I play better, but I have trouble believing the guitar itself actually sounds different and I've never noticed it. Sound is so subjective that I probably won't convince anyone other than myself that warming up a guitar (by playing it for a couple of minutes) doesn't change its sound, but I do believe that and I can't find any scientific reason to explain otherwise.

On the third paragraph I believe the electrons might disagree with you... but you wouldn't know it if they did.

[stein]

I take the OP as a two part question: DOES the guitar actually sound different? And IF so, why?

 

Is it in our ears, or are we actually hearing a guitar that is acting differently? I think it's a dang good question.

 

I used to be involved in the audiophile hobby, and ONE of the "fun" things with it was discovering these mysteries. Just for the fun of discovering. That is, identify a difference, confirm or deny if it IS an improvement or just different, and then, try and learn why it is, or the cause.

 

And that's more elusive than it seems, because while some things can't be explained by science, that doesn't mean we can't definitely tell a difference. That right there is an example of how ingorant or arrogant humans can be. Just because we don't know a thing doesn't make it's existance happen or not happen.

 

So...what I believe, that may not matter. But, what I have experienced is that most everything audio has a "break in" where sound improves. Also, I'm sure we have all heard opinions and stories about how guitars improve with age, or from being played. I believe it about guitars, but dang if I can prove it, even to myself. With a stereo, it's pretty easy, because while I can't prove it here in text, it's easy to demonstrate to the average person just playing the system.

 

If there is any truth to the idea a guitar improves by being played long term, I would expect it would also happen withing the first few minutes of being played at some level back and forth.

[j45nick]

Acoustic guitars are made out of 1 or more types of wood, metal (or nylon) strings, glue, and some sort of body finish - nitro or one one the newer types-

Each of those materials has a different coefficient of thermal expansion which means that given some change in temperature they will each expand and contract somewhat differently - metal will grow (or shrink) proportionately more than wood does given the same change in temperature. On top of that, they respond slower or quicker depending on their thickness and their conductivity. So a thin metal string will catch up to a change in air temperature more quickly than a thick wood neck.

 

 

In the relatively narrow range of temperatures experienced by the typical guitar stored and used indoors, expansion and contraction of wood due to changes in humidity is probably more important than thermal expansion. Remember that on most acoustics, the entire inside surface of the guitar--about 50% of the total exposed wood surface--is unfinished, raw wood, which is more affected by changes in humidity than finished wood. Coupled with the fact that most of the woods used in guitars is extremely thin--say, 1/8" (just over 3mm)--the top, back, and sides of your guitar can change quite a bit with changes in humidity.

 

Metals are generally unaffected by changes in humidity, but as you point out, do change significantly with variations in temperature. I worked professionally for years with large aluminum and carbon fiber structures, basically performing "control" measurements for determining compliance with specifications. Even the measurement devices we used were rated and calibrated for use at specific temperatures, with corrections applied for variations in temperatures. For example, steel measuring tapes we used were calibrated at a specific applied tension, and at 20 Celsius.

 

You guitar may not be a breathing thing, but it can certainly act more like a living thing than an inanimate object.

 

That's my excuse for my lousy playing: physics.

[ElChris]

I think most is in the brain, most likely both the ears and one's hands relaxing a bit and playing a bit differently.

 

OTOH, if one looks at how an acoustic is held, there's little question that one's body heat is transferred to the instrument - in different amounts depending on the individual, the guitar and the "hold" on the instrument.

 

Now, how much difference that may or may not make is likely up to individual circumstances, weather, etc.

 

m

 

I never thought of that but thats a very interesting point.

[milod]

The point on the hold, etc., was made a few years ago by a forum member from London as in England who teaches guitar and preforms "classical" regularly.

 

I'm personally convinced that he's got a good point on it, at least when it comes to a true "box" guitar as opposed to a "board."

 

OTOH, I'd say that's more "higher end" in a sense. I've done a lot of "cowboy music" performances with batches of guys taking turns, and backed up batches of fiddlers at fiddle contests - so that amounts to a lotta pickin' "cold." I've never really been bothered or thought of "tone improves when..." issues. Some of that pickin' was awfully plain behind the fiddlers and on occasion pretty fancy fingerpickin'.

 

So I guess, to me anyway, you figure your opinion and go with it.

 

Would I prefer a bit of warmup? Yup. Do I hear a difference? Not really, either in the old days pure acoustic to a mike or since the mid '70s mostly AE plugged in except for the fiddlers through the '80s.

 

For what it's worth, pretty much ditto with my one "tv" slot back in the days of color cameras that seemed as big as a refrigerator. No chance to warmup and - boom there it goes to perform.

 

m

[fsharp]

Couple of different responses

someone asked if warm wood vibrates differently than cold wood? Wood is stiffer at lower temperatures than higher termperatures and that would change its vibrations. However, the change is very small and you would need a big change in temperature (beyond which you normally subject a guitar to) to have any measurable effect. The strength vs temperature response curve is pretty flat overall.

Someone said wood changes with humidity much more than temperature - Yes absolutely true. Small humidity changes cause much bigger differences than small termperature changes.

Someone said if the sound changes after couple of years why not after 30 minutes-So when you cycle wood (by vibrating it) through millions or billions of cycles over hundreds or thousands of hours, it will do something to irreversibly change the physical internal properties of the wood. Wood is a an incredibly complex material with different properties in the grain direction vs 90deg to the grain. The internal "glue" that holds all the fibers in place does break down a bit and you would expect to get a "looser" guitar. That just doesn't happen over 30 minutes and a couple thousand cycles. When you vibrate a guitar top, the movements are miniscule so it takes huge number of cycles to change its properties.

Unfortunately we are mixing up "warming" up a guitar by playing with changing its temperature. Change its temperature alot, and/or humidity(a little) and you will change the properties of wood enough to respond differently. Take a guitar that's already at room temperature and just play for a few minutes and I still can't think of any reason the guitar would change its response. I agree very much with whoever said that your fingers change, you hold the guitar differently and it results in a different sound. Its the person who warms up over a couple of minutes.

[blindboygrunt]

The is the type of thread that gives forums a bad name

 

:)

 

 

 

 

I'm on the 'it's the player' side of the fence.

[retrorod]

The is the type of thread that gives forums a bad name

 

:)

 

 

 

 

I'm on the 'it's the player' side of the fence.

 

 

Come on 'grunt'....Fairly obvious, its been going downhill for quite some time

 

 

 

 

[fortyearspickn]

If the warmth/temperature of the guitar affected the tone to the extent human ears could hear it, would not a guitar in Florida always sound better then a guitar in Illinois? Seriously, I find it is me "warming up" (not temperature, but getting mentally "in the zone") that noticeably affects how the guitar sounds. I don't think that if you played an open b string on a guitar in a 70 degree room and then moved the guitar to an 80 degree room and gave it 10 minutes to "warm up" that there would be any discernible change, let alone improvement in the tone of that string.

[retrorod]

If the warmth/temperature of the guitar affected the tone to the extent human ears could hear it, would not a guitar in Florida always sound better then a guitar in Illinois? Seriously, I find it is me "warming up" (not temperature, but getting mentally "in the zone") that noticeably affects how the guitar sounds. I don't think that if you played an open b string on a guitar in a 70 degree room and then moved the guitar to an 80 degree room and gave it 10 minutes to "warm up" that there would be any discernible change, let alone improvement in the tone of that string.

 

Come on forty....If you don't believe....IT will NEVER happen ! Unlike "global warming".....even if you DON'T believe....Its coming anyway DAMNIT! (according to the diehards)

 

I dare say, that the "warm-up" theory with acoustics is much more complex than moving a guitar to different rooms with a ten degree temperature difference(70 to 80), plucking a B string, and saying "SEE"....I can't hear no difference !

 

For starters, this time of year(winter) many of our guitars may be at a temperature of 60-65 degrees. Once you take it from the case, (assuming your not an alien), you hold it in your 98.6 degree body and arms. Your fretting hand/fingers will eventually warm-up the neck/fingerboard/string, triage. Your body/forearm/strumming apparatus will eventually warm-up the guitar box and "Voilla" a warmer and deeper tone will be had ...and heard!

 

Just like Global Warming!....it cannot be denied It is a gradual and subtle change that can be discerned with some "applied nuance" in your auditory canals!

[E-minor7]

Take a guitar that's already at room temperature and just play for a few minutes and I still can't think of any reason the guitar would change its response.

Okay - I accept that temperature of wood doesn't matter. And wouldn't the resin be more rubber-like thus less transmitting when warmed up anyway. .

 

Anyways - how about my theory about the components needing a little time to get their act together.

 

When noticing how much every little zone of the instrument vibrates when taking even the first chords, it doesn't sound that unrealistic, does it.

 

 

 

 

[fortyearspickn]

Come on forty....If you don't believe....IT will NEVER happen ! Unlike "global warming".....even if you DON'T believe....Its coming anyway DAMNIT! (according to the diehards)

 

I dare say, that the "warm-up" theory with acoustics is much more complex than moving a guitar to different rooms with a ten degree temperature difference(70 to 80), plucking a B string, and saying "SEE"....I can't hear no difference !

 

For starters, this time of year(winter) many of our guitars may be at a temperature of 60-65 degrees. Once you take it from the case, (assuming your not an alien), you hold it in your 98.6 degree body and arms. Your fretting hand/fingers will eventually warm-up the neck/fingerboard/string, triage. Your body/forearm/strumming apparatus will eventually warm-up the guitar box and "Voilla" a warmer and deeper tone will be had ...and heard!

 

Just like Global Warming!....it cannot be denied It is a gradual and subtle change that can be discerned with some "applied nuance" in your auditory canals!

 

Yep. I've gradually begun to believe in Global Warming. Especially with this being the third winter of record cold temps and record snowfalls - it's become impossible to deny. But, I still don't think my 98.6 body warms up the guitar to the point of making it sound different. If anyone seriously believed that - there'd be a market for electric blankets for guitars, warming pads, or at least the people at ToneRite would add a model with heat as well.

[retrorod]

Yep. I've gradually begun to believe in Global Warming. Especially with this being the third winter of record cold temps and record snowfalls - it's become impossible to deny. But, I still don't think my 98.6 body warms up the guitar to the point of making it sound different. If anyone seriously believed that - there'd be a market for electric blankets for guitars, warming pads, or at least the people at ToneRite would add a model with heat as well.

 

Unbelievable things , can and do happen.