cliffenstein Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Does anyone know if Epiphone laminates are actually considered to be of high quality or is it just nice veneer with crap filling? I ask this for several reasons. 1. My AJ-220S sounds so great it's sometimes easy to forget it's only a solid TOP. 2. I've seen people refer to laminate back and sides guitars only sounding good when strings are new, but that doesn't jibe with my experience with Epis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agradeleous Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Good question there must be a set standard I'd think ? The better sounding laminates I've heard are the new Martians and Tanglewood guitars . Martian have some new process not sure about the tangles . I have an ibanez AEL50 which I thought was very good and it sounds good on recordings but compared to the Epi DR500 and the Blue Ridge I can't even play the ibanez anymore the sounds that bad . Funny when you have nothing in hand to compare to . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuitarLight Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Does anyone know if Epiphone laminates are actually considered to be of high quality or is it just nice veneer with crap filling? I ask this for several reasons. 1. My AJ-220S sounds so great it's sometimes easy to forget it's only a solid TOP. 2. I've seen people refer to laminate back and sides guitars only sounding good when strings are new, but that doesn't jibe with my experience with Epis. Hi, great question! I have often wondered the same thing. I myself also own an AJ220S ....and while I can not confirm the quality of laminate used in this guitar, I can say that it is a wonderful sounding guitar. Playing it, I am often amazed, and must keep telling myself it has laminated back and sides and sounds way better than it should! From its tone quality, I am forced to assume that it is high quality laminate...meaning that it is 3 layers of mahogany laminate, including not only the top and back...but the middle layer as well...with the middle layer being mahogany sandwiched between to more layers of mahogany. My guess is that your Texan also has premium quality layered laminate mahogany sides, three layers of real mahogany, which accounts for its premium tonal qualities. And so I suspect that the 220S with a solid top, also has premium layered back and sides. Bob Taylor has said that they no longer refer to their laminated guitars as being "Laminated" ..but instead refer to them as "layered guitars" ...because they contain three layers of actual real wood, with no tone sucking fillers in the middle. And this is what defines a laminate..or layered guitar as being able to produce quality tone and resonance. Some manufacturers build the the laminate with a middle layer of poor grade tone sucking "filler" wood. But a more quality laminate will have all three layers of the actual wood, all carefully glued together, in this case mahogany. My own 220S sounds good not just with new strings, but even with older well used strings. The tone quality is always there in my 220S, leading me to think that this particular laminate guitar is built from three layers of real Mahogany, giving it that wonderful mahogany tone. The 220 is an AJ of course...and I also own a Masterbilt AJ solid mahogany, and these two are very close indeed in the mahogany tone. I also just recently purchased a laminated 2014 Epi J-45 ...which is all laminate..including laminate sitka top...it plays a bit quieter than my others but still has that wonderful pure sweet J-45 tone. Laminate tops also come in different qualities....a good quality laminate sitka top will be comprised of three layers of real sitka...and not a filler in between the two, which makes the laminated sitka top produce cleaner tone. The epi J-45 all laminate I bought to take outdoors on camping trips so that it would not be as susceptible to heat and humidity fluctuations sounds great..even with a laminated..layered top. I also used it a great deal in the cold dry winter this year...and am quite pleased with it..it can be out much longer without damage and performed quite well. I am more than pleased with its tone for an all laminate economical guitar. And I can leave it out to play on the stand even in prolonged 10 degree humidity. And it really does accent the J-45 tone in feel and sound...just a bit less in volume and resonance....but still very acceptable, and it is the spitting image of an actual J-45 to boot. I have to say, Epiphone, is one wonderful guitar company. Even their laminates are delicious to play and see, and hear! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuestionMark Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Regarding back and sides, I am not too sure they play that much of a role in the sound. Whereas the top is what really makes a difference in the sound. Especially when a solid top guitar is compared to a laminated (or select wood or layered top...which are different names for a laminate). A solid sides and/or back compared to a laminated side and/or back guitar is not in many cars noticeable soundwise. Regarding Bob Taylor's comment,I take that as another of his marketing thangs to charge more for something that costs less to make and is inferior. He did the same type of marketing mumble jumbo with bolt on acoustic guitar necks. Can fool some of the people some of the time... Just my two cents. QM aka Jazzman Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel_G Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 My own 220S sounds good not just with new strings, but even with older well used strings. The tone quality is always there in my 220S, leading me to think that this particular laminate guitar is built from three layers of real Mahogany, giving it that wonderful mahogany tone. The 220 is an AJ of course...and I also own a Masterbilt AJ solid mahogany, and these two are very close indeed in the mahogany tone. I also just recently purchased a laminated 2014 Epi J-45 ...which is all laminate..including laminate sitka top...it plays a bit quieter than my others but still has that wonderful pure sweet J-45 tone. Laminate tops also come in different qualities....a good quality laminate sitka top will be comprised of three layers of real sitka...and not a filler in between the two, which makes the laminated sitka top produce cleaner tone. The epi J-45 all laminate I bought to take outdoors on camping trips so that it would not be as susceptible to heat and humidity fluctuations sounds great..even with a laminated..layered top. I have been looking at these two guitars in particular for my next purchase, I'm in the market for a new acoustic and these were the two I have narrowed it down to in my price range. I already own a Vintage Sunburst EJ-200 so was looking at the 220S in Natural which I think is beautiful, if I went for the J45 I'm not sure what colour I would opt for Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DennisB643 Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Regarding back and sides, I am not too sure they play that much of a role in the sound. Whereas the top is what really makes a difference in the sound. Especially when a solid top guitar is compared to a laminated (or select wood or layered top...which are different names for a laminate). A solid sides and/or back compared to a laminated side and/or back guitar is not in many cars noticeable soundwise. Regarding Bob Taylor's comment,I take that as another of his marketing thangs to charge more for something that costs less to make and is inferior. He did the same type of marketing mumble jumbo with bolt on acoustic guitar necks. Can fool some of the people some of the time... Just my two cents. QM aka Jazzman Jeff While I've never been a big fan of Taylor guitars, I do have to admire Bob Taylor for his innovative-forward thinking in the use of tone woods. As resources become more scarce, some of his innovations may prove valuable. I prefer the term layered (as opposed to laminated) for no other reason than it brings to my mind a piece of plywood. I think its common knowledge that the top is the primary part that gives the instrument its voice, but there's just no simple explanation (for me anyway) why the same model instrument can have such a variation in tone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodger11 Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 I have been looking at these two guitars in particular for my next purchase, I'm in the market for a new acoustic and these were the two I have narrowed it down to in my price range. I already own a Vintage Sunburst EJ-200 so was looking at the 220S in Natural which I think is beautiful, if I went for the J45 I'm not sure what colour I would opt for The EJ45 is very good looking but for me the AJ220 is streets ahead in tone. My view on back and sides is that your body (especially if you have a belly like mine!) and strumming arm will cover a lot of that area so ot's not as important as the top. I have an all laminate AJ100 (out on loan) which sounds pretty good as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel_G Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 The EJ45 is very good looking but for me the AJ220 is streets ahead in tone. My view on back and sides is that your body (especially if you have a belly like mine!) and strumming arm will cover a lot of that area so ot's not as important as the top. I have an all laminate AJ100 (out on loan) which sounds pretty good as well. I'll be going into my local store (GuitarGuitar in Glasgow) next week so hopefully will get a chance to have a play at both guitars, although they only seem to have the 220SCE in stock. I don't want a cutaway as I think it spoils the look of an acoustic IMO I'm interested to hear the difference in tone between the Solid Sitka Spruce of the 220S and the Select (Laminate) Spruce of the J45. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuestionMark Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Realistically...you have to be careful when testing/comparing how different guitars sound in places such as Guitar Center's closed off acoustic guitar rooms. They all sound great in there because of the acoustic construction of the room. Try the guitars out there, but then try to go to a more open space area if you can. For example a laminated top guitar will sound strong in a closed close quarter room, but when in a different setting often can sound much quieter, less bassy (is that a word. Less boomy) in a place with less than ideal acoustics. Whereas a solid top guitar's resonance is churning its sound out from itself to a larger degree ran than just in combination with a room's acoustic dynamics. Just something to watch/listen for. Obviously, personal finances also have to be factored in, too. QM aka Jazzman Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodger11 Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 I'll be going into my local store (GuitarGuitar in Glasgow) next week so hopefully will get a chance to have a play at both guitars, although they only seem to have the 220SCE in stock. I don't want a cutaway as I think it spoils the look of an acoustic IMO I'm interested to hear the difference in tone between the Solid Sitka Spruce of the 220S and the Select (Laminate) Spruce of the J45. Dawson here in Belfast has all 3 models (I don't like a cutaway either!) and all looked great but the AJ220 sounded far better to my ears. I was tempted by the EJ45 as I'm a big Weller fan and the VSB looks a lot like his J45 For £125 the AJ220 is the best guitar for the price around - amazing quality for this price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zombywoof Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Bob Taylor has said that they no longer refer to their laminated guitars as being "Laminated" ..but instead refer to them as "layered guitars" ...because they contain three layers of actual real wood, with no tone sucking fillers in the middle. And this is what defines a laminate..or layered guitar as being able to produce quality tone and resonance. The Taylor 100 and 200 series guitars are basically poplar sandwiched between layers of thin veneer. Three layers of wood but not even layers of the same wood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliffenstein Posted April 2, 2015 Author Share Posted April 2, 2015 The Taylor 100 and 200 series guitars are basically poplar sandwiched between layers of thin veneer. Three layers of wood but not even layers of the same wood. The Dirty Thirties series from Recording King back and sides are all poplar laminate, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickthemiller Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 I'll be going into my local store (GuitarGuitar in Glasgow) next week so hopefully will get a chance to have a play at both guitars, although they only seem to have the 220SCE in stock. I don't want a cutaway as I think it spoils the look of an acoustic IMO I'm interested to hear the difference in tone between the Solid Sitka Spruce of the 220S and the Select (Laminate) Spruce of the J45. The AJ220s is the best buy - I bought a 1963 limited edition J45 or what ever they call em - at the time they were advertised as solid spruce top. It took me about a minute flat to realise it was plywood (by the way that is the real name for layers of wood glued together - not laminate or layered or anything) it sounded like plywood - looked very pretty but sounded rubbish. Get the AJ 220s if you can and if possible get the Indonesian made one rather than the Chinese. P.S The Texan with a solid back sounds far better than a AJ220s - try Thomann on line they have Texans at about £270 when you have paid the currency conversion cost to the paypal or the bank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdutr0 Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 Actually, I can confirm that the laminate used on the AJ-220 is NOT 3 layers of mahogany. How do I know? Because mine has a cosmetic boo-boo on the back at the bottom of the lower bout (that's why I bought it - got a great deal!). This boo-boo exposed some of the wood under the outer layer of mahogany. The exposed wood is a very VERY light yellow-ish color. It is also quite hard - I tried very hard and cannot make a even a small dent in the wood with my thumbnail. I was curious as to what it was myself but could not figure it out and my google-fu revealed nothing. Personally, I suspect some kind of maple but that is honestly just a guess. Whatever it is, it is a great sounding guitar! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliffenstein Posted April 29, 2015 Author Share Posted April 29, 2015 Your description sounds like Poplar mixed with a hardening agent, which is pretty usual these days. Same thing you'll see in Taylor & Recording King laminates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhanners623 Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 All things being equal, I'm not sure the sides and back are as intensely critical to the sound, as long as you have a good solid top that is braced correctly. There is the story (true, because the guitar still exists) of the famous maker of classical guitars, Antonio Torres, arguing the same point in the 1800s and proving his detractors wrong by building guitar with a great top, but making the back and sides out of papier mâché. Reportedly, it sounded great. Yeah, it can be nice to have a guitar made out of all-solid woods (I've got a couple) but the top wood and bracing is more important than solid sides and back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickthemiller Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 All things being equal, I'm not sure the sides and back are as intensely critical to the sound, as long as you have a good solid top that is braced correctly. There is the story (true, because the guitar still exists) of the famous maker of classical guitars, Antonio Torres, arguing the same point in the 1800s and proving his detractors wrong by building guitar with a great top, but making the back and sides out of papier mâché. Reportedly, it sounded great. Yeah, it can be nice to have a guitar made out of all-solid woods (I've got a couple) but the top wood and bracing is more important than solid sides and back. Yes but he's only reputed to have made the one. Martin make out of paper today - they call em X models Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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