btoth76 Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 Hello! Probably, this has been discussed already. But now, that Gibson became very open to provide information on their product pages, I hope this last secret will be out too. However, if it won't, does anyone have a reliable information on what brand of nitro lacquer Gibson is using these days? I am curious because I have to do some touch-up work and don't want to mix up different products to run into unexpected incompatibily issues. Thank You in advance! Best wishes... Bence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan H Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 I can't say for sure..but whatever it is, it's pretty nasty stuff: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRvg7DrwIj4 -Ryan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riffster Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 Having just refinished a V in reranch nitro I can tell you Nitrocellulose is nasty, the fumes are no joke but once on and dry it is a very nice product to work with. I do not think Gobson uses a brand of nitro, considering the amounts they use they probably have it manufactured for them. Reranch is compatible with Gibson nitro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErickC Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 Yeah, people rave about the smell of nitro and I think it's just awful stuff. But you have to be trying really, really hard to run it, I've discovered. It's fairly easy to work with. That's about the only reason why I've used it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zigzag Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 There are essentially six manufacturers of nitrocellulose worldwide and only one headquartered in the US (Hercules). (Gibson does not make NC.) NC is manufactured essentially the same way by all of them, and most grades are offsets to those offered by competitors. NC in its dried state is odorless. The ester soluble grade, which is most likely what Gibson uses, is hard to the point of brittle. It has good resistance to yellowing when exposed to UV light. It has very limited solubility, being mostly soluble in esters (e.g. ethyl acetate) and ketones (e.g. methyl ethyl ketone or acetone). It has limited solubility in alcohols, and has little to no solubility in aliphatic and aromatic solvents (e.g. naphtha and toluene). The odor from wet nitrocellulose comes from the solvents used to dissolve it and/or the resins/plasticizers used to give it flexibility. The tricks to formulating NC lacquers for guitars are in determining the evaporation rate and solubility of the solvent(s), the viscosity grade and solids content at application, the flexibility of the dried film (and how it will be modified to develop that property), the film formation properties, and impact and abrasion resistances to be built in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btoth76 Posted July 16, 2015 Author Share Posted July 16, 2015 Thank You for Your replies! Gibson might be producing it's own formula - that would make sense. No major company has listed Gibson in it's customer reference either. How do You know, Riffster, that Reranch is compatible with the stock finish? You did a partial refinish on the instrument? Did You have to blend the two types of finishes together? Thank You again! Cheers... Bence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zigzag Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 More than likely, the lacquer was developed by a coatings company working with Gibson. It is not likely that Gibson would want anyone to know who their supplier is, and I doubt Gibson would want anyone to know the specifics of how it is formulated. Being a formulator of coatings, I would love to know how it is formulated, for no other reason than just for that knowledge. Using infrared spectroscopy, identifying solid components would be relatively easy, but without a good library of raw material files, it might be more difficult to identify specific grades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riffster Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 I did a full refinish, in the process I was able to notice how the nitro starts belding with the previous layer. If you look up the Rerench forum you will see a lot of people use their lacquer to touch up or add coats of nitro to their guitars. When you say blending you mean using nitro to touch up right? on a larger scale nitro will soften and melt the previous layer together, that's why is so cool in my opinion. This can be a problem with solid colors, you have to be careful but if you are touching up clear, you're fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btoth76 Posted July 16, 2015 Author Share Posted July 16, 2015 ... When you say blending you mean using nitro to touch up right? on a larger scale nitro will soften and melt the previous layer together, that's why is so cool in my opinion. This can be a problem with solid colors, you have to be careful but if you are touching up clear, you're fine. Thanks, Riffster! Yes, I have got an annoying impression on the lacquer of my Classic Custom. It's a clearcoat, with "antique tint" under it... But, as I saw, they only offer aerosols. I would prefer a smaller can of it for drop-filling. Also, I got a chip to fill up on the walnut-coloured Recording. But that's another case, since it's an aged finish. Cheers... Bence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rabs Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Well I have two sources of Nitro... One is Rothko and Frost http://www.rothkoandfrost.com/nitrocellulose-lacquer-clear-nitro-uk/ And the other is a guy who ive spoken too before.. He says he has supplied Gibson Europe with nitro http://www.manchesterguitartech.co.uk/ Both offer spray cans or bottles and various coloured or tinted versions :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rct Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 BreatheRite. Because every old piece of lumber needs to breathe. Right. rct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zigzag Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 I realize that we are just talking semantics, but technically, nitrocellulose is a dry material that is pure cellulose nitrate, usually wet with alcohol or plasticizer to reduce flammability. What you guys seem to be referring to when you say "nitro" or "nitrocellulose" is a formulated, liquid product containing nitrocellulose, of which there are probably hundreds of suppliers, from wood and furniture coatings suppliers, to industrial coatings suppliers, to ink and overprint lacquer suppliers, to instrument coating suppliers. Each one of them might have hundreds of nitrocellulose containing coatings, both custom and commercial formulations. It is likely that Gibson's nitrocellulose containing formulation is unique, and though there might be compatible or similar coatings out there, they are all likely somewhat different in formulation and performance. Of course, the possibility exists that Gibson's formulation is just nitrocellulose and a solvent. But, I doubt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan H Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Of course, the possibility exists that Gibson's formulation is just nitrocellulose and a solvent. But, I doubt it. If you look at the video I linked in the first reply, there's no doubt they use a healthy amount of plasticizers... -Ryan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riffster Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 If you look at the video I linked in the first reply, there's no doubt they use a healthy amount of plasticizers... -Ryan I've seen that before. It would be interesting to do the same to a guitar finished by Historic Makeovers, if you get that finish wet enough I bet it can be done. Truth is the finishes on Gibson Historics are indeed a little too thick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zigzag Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 If you look at the video I linked in the first reply, there's no doubt they use a healthy amount of plasticizers... Yes, it would appear so. Then the question becomes, how are they plasticizing the nitro? Low molecular weight plasticizers tend to migrate out of cellulose films. That could account for the buggery feel that some people complain about. Lower molecular weight urethanes are also compatible with nitrocellulose, and are often used as plasticizers. If I was going to plasticize an NC guitar lacquer, that's what I would use due to its excellent impact resistance. But you likely wouldn't have a good Breathe-Rite coating using urethane. The film would be more coalesced, and the performance characteristics would be more like a "poly" coating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btoth76 Posted July 18, 2015 Author Share Posted July 18, 2015 Sorry for the late reply! First of all, thank You all for the very professional information. Unfortunately, as I know now, noone is willing to ship such goods abroad. So, I have to find something locally. Not much luck so far: instrument-grade nitro-cellulose lacquer is completely missing from the market here. I might have to take a trip to Wien to purchase some. Thank You once more. Cheers... Bence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dReit1 Posted July 18, 2015 Share Posted July 18, 2015 IIRC When I tried to build an acoustic 10 years ago, I was told that Gibson Montana used McFaddens Lacquer which is no longer available but I believe is now Seagrave Lacquer. But I don't know that was for sure true or just salesman hype. And I have no idea if Gibson followed McFaddens to Seagrave or went with another manufacture. I did use Mcfaddens and the finish came out OK for a 1st try. The guitar was a piece of crap! But the finish wasn't the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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