Ah, looky looky . . .

[Sleeko]

Kind of rare to see one of these. Just passing it along . . .

 

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/281932427213?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

[cody78]

They look gorgeous and I'd sure love to try one. I wonder how they compare to the Gibson Byrdland? There have been lots of good comments from owners I've seen post reviews of them online. I've never seen one anywhere and like you say rarely even see them listed used. That seems a great price for that one...

[Sleeko]

I bought mine from the same folks selling this one back in 2007. Paid $1600.00 brand new. It's a cool and unusual instrument with the smaller scale and thin body. Not quite as comfortable sitting down as say my Elitist Broadway, but still very nice. Great looking wood as well!

 

 

[stein]

They look gorgeous and I'd sure love to try one. I wonder how they compare to the Gibson Byrdland? There have been lots of good comments from owners I've seen post reviews of them online. I've never seen one anywhere and like you say rarely even see them listed used. That seems a great price for that one...

From memory and limited experience trying many, I might say:

 

The Japanese "Gibsons", recent ones, are really well made, exquisite even. As far as any area one would judge a guitar, it is really, really hard to find fault or weak areas with them as a whole.

 

But for some reason, they don't sound like Gibsons. To spite the fact they have LOTS of skill and reverence in copying guitars, and are capable of VERY high levels of quality, I don't think they have been able to nail down the Gibson thing.

 

To me, it's both odd and interesting. Especially considering Gibson is not the same company they were in the past. Different factory, different people, even different building techniques. Kinda amazing that, to my ears at least, Gibson does a VERY good job of making guitars that play and sound like their past Gibsons.

[Cougar]

Just passing it along . . .

 

Thanks, Sleeko. It is indeed rare to even see one of these. I can't be sure, but that dark brown-looking fretboard in the ad does not look like ebony.

[Sleeko]

Thanks, Sleeko. It is indeed rare to even see one of these. I can't be sure, but that dark brown-looking fretboard in the ad does not look like ebony.

 

Mine is. And they are listed as such but one never knows . . .

 

http://epiphonewiki.com/index.php/Byrdland

[Parabar]

From memory and limited experience trying many, I might say:

 

The Japanese "Gibsons", recent ones, are really well made, exquisite even. As far as any area one would judge a guitar, it is really, really hard to find fault or weak areas with them as a whole.

 

But for some reason, they don't sound like Gibsons. To spite the fact they have LOTS of skill and reverence in copying guitars, and are capable of VERY high levels of quality, I don't think they have been able to nail down the Gibson thing.

 

To me, it's both odd and interesting. Especially considering Gibson is not the same company they were in the past. Different factory, different people, even different building techniques. Kinda amazing that, to my ears at least, Gibson does a VERY good job of making guitars that play and sound like their past Gibsons.

 

The Elitists come with different pickups. I bet if you but some Gibson '57 Classics in one, the differences would be minuscule. My Elitist Broadway with stock pickups plays and sounds better than some Gibson L-5's I've tried.

 

BTW, there are currently two Elitist Byrdlands on eBay, plus a sunburst Elitist Broadway. They're asking almost $2,600 for the Broadway, which seems high --- wonder if they'll get it.

[Wizard1]

Yep you're right that is a rare and very tasty EPI right there. Bet that baby plays and sounds fantastic too. Drool......!!!!

[Sleeko]

The Elitists come with different pickups. I bet if you but some Gibson '57 Classics in one, the differences would be minuscule. My Elitist Broadway with stock pickups pays and sounds better than some Gibson L-5's I've tried.

 

BTW, there are currently two Elitist Byrdlands on eBay, plus a sunburst Elitist Broadway. They're asking almost $2,600 for the Broadway, which seems high --- wonder if they'll get it.

 

I was thinking the same thing about the pickups. While they aren't as warm sounding as my L4CES, my Elitists certainly have a wonderful tone and playability to them.

About that price on the Broadway, we shall see . . .

[Red 333]

 

BTW, there are currently two Elitist Byrdlands on eBay, plus a sunburst Elitist Broadway. They're asking almost $2,600 for the Broadway, which seems high --- wonder if they'll get it.

 

The count is up TWO Elitist Broadways on eBay right now...

 

No affiliation with any seller. This thread got me looking at the Byrdlands and the Broadway previously mentioned, and I spied the second.

 

Red 333

[jmendoza]

:)

[LPS1976]

The OPs picture of the 2007 Byrdland show it has the old school fret nibs, a-la Gibson, which have been disscontinued since they started making them in China. This alone makes it worth more money because it reflects the additional time, labor, and attention to authentic detail they used to put into making these guitars. That has stopped, as a cost cutting measure, and so older instruments of this caliber will now only become all the more valuable. MIJ, and MIK are touted as an asset on most Epiphone auctions. MIC is not considered as good by afficianados of Epiphones.

 

Over the years, all Gibsons and Epis have slipped in terms of quality and sound. No more hide glue, they use Titebond, which is rubbery and damps the sound, plus it creeps, meaning it allows the parts to move over time. The polyurethane finishes don't let the wood breath as much as nitrocellulose lacquer, and so the wood will take many more decades to dry to the point where it becomes more resonant, and possibly never fully cure. Plus, the polyurethane finish, like the aliphatic resin glue (Titebond) is rubbery and damps the vibrations and overtones, hindering the instruments tonality. The elimination of high quality features that are labor intensive to implement, meaning they are done by hand, like the frets nibs are yet another indication of a drop in quality and less old world hand craftmanship. The older original Gibsons are so expensive now, that few people can afford the better ones, so most of us have nothing to compare these newer imports against, and so they have set the new "norm" or standard by which other instruments are compared. If you ever have the chance to play an old Gibson from the 1950s, you will really notice what I'm talking about. On the good side, these inexpensive imports offer an economical alternative to spending your life savings on an original Gibson or Epi, and are a great value. With a few treaks, most can be made to sound terrific.

 

Pickups can, and do make a big difference. Most of the import pickups are made almost exactly like the originals, but the problem is not how they are made. The problem is with the quality of the copper windings: import pick-ups often use less than pure copper that sometimes comes from recycled/reclaimed sources and often contains very high amounts of impurites, mainy ferrous, like iron. They buy this disscount, cheap recycled cooper wire to save money, instead of purchasing pure virgin copper wire. The impurities raise the resistance of the copper wire, so less windings are needed to get the same impeadence. What this means is the import pickup will measure very close, if not exactly the same impeadence to its USA made counterpart (Gibson pickups) but will not have as many turns, which gives it a different sound and lower output level.

 

Gibson/Epiphone got into a little bit of trouble with their early millenium import "Elitest" Epiphones that had the USA stickers on the pick-ups because they were missleading. Notice they dont put those stickers on the Elitest pick-ups anymore?

 

I removed my pickups from my MIK Peerless Sheraton (1989) and replaced them with PAFs, wow, what a difference!!!!

 

the sticker on the pickups...what was misleading about them? did people think it was a usa guitar?

[jmendoza]

[:)

[stein]

The Elitists come with different pickups. I bet if you but some Gibson '57 Classics in one, the differences would be minuscule. My Elitist Broadway with stock pickups plays and sounds better than some Gibson L-5's I've tried.

 

BTW, there are currently two Elitist Byrdlands on eBay, plus a sunburst Elitist Broadway. They're asking almost $2,600 for the Broadway, which seems high --- wonder if they'll get it.

No, when evaluating, especially Japanese ones, I don't evaluate pups. They would get changed anyway.

 

It's just kinda odd, as good as the Japanese guitars can be (and are, the ones we are talking about), they have Fender nailed. They have Gretsch nailed. Just for some reason, don't really have that Gibson sound nailed.

 

That's all. I'm judging purely on the basis of the copy vs the origonal. As far as quality, I have seen and played (a bit) some very nice Elitist. Actually, almost bought a JLH when shopping for a 335.

[stein]

The OPs picture of the 2007 Byrdland show it has the old school fret nibs, a-la Gibson, which have been disscontinued since they started making them in China. This alone makes it worth more money because it reflects the additional time, labor, and attention to authentic detail they used to put into making these guitars. That has stopped, as a cost cutting measure, and so older instruments of this caliber will now only become all the more valuable. MIJ, and MIK are touted as an asset on most Epiphone auctions. MIC is not considered as good by afficianados of Epiphones.

 

Over the years, all Gibsons and Epis have slipped in terms of quality and sound. No more hide glue, they use Titebond, which is rubbery and damps the sound, plus it creeps, meaning it allows the parts to move over time. The polyurethane finishes don't let the wood breath as much as nitrocellulose lacquer, and so the wood will take many more decades to dry to the point where it becomes more resonant, and possibly never fully cure. Plus, the polyurethane finish, like the aliphatic resin glue (Titebond) is rubbery and damps the vibrations and overtones, hindering the instruments tonality. The elimination of high quality features that are labor intensive to implement, meaning they are done by hand, like the frets nibs are yet another indication of a drop in quality and less old world hand craftmanship. The older original Gibsons are so expensive now, that few people can afford the better ones, so most of us have nothing to compare these newer imports against, and so they have set the new "norm" or standard by which other instruments are compared. If you ever have the chance to play an old Gibson from the 1950s, you will really notice what I'm talking about. On the good side, these inexpensive imports offer an economical alternative to spending your life savings on an original Gibson or Epi, and are a great value. With a few treaks, most can be made to sound terrific.

 

Pickups can, and do make a big difference. Most of the import pickups are made almost exactly like the originals, but the problem is not how they are made. The problem is with the quality of the copper windings: import pick-ups often use less than pure copper that sometimes comes from recycled/reclaimed sources and often contains very high amounts of impurites, mainy ferrous, like iron. They buy this disscount, cheap recycled cooper wire to save money, instead of purchasing pure virgin copper wire. The impurities raise the resistance of the copper wire, so less windings are needed to get the same impeadence. What this means is the import pickup will measure very close, if not exactly the same impeadence to its USA made counterpart (Gibson pickups) but will not have as many turns, which gives it a different sound and lower output level.

 

Gibson/Epiphone got into a little bit of trouble with their early millenium import "Elitest" Epiphones that had the USA stickers on the pick-ups because they were missleading. Notice they dont put those stickers on the Elitest pick-ups anymore?

 

I removed my pickups from my MIK Peerless Sheraton (1989) and replaced them with PAFs, wow, what a difference!!!!

I'm not really sure you know what all you are talking about. I don't think you really have everything in proper context.

 

I don't think Gibsons have gone down in quality, and I think most agree. What few L-5's and the like that they HAVE made in recent years have been mostly raved about. They are just really expensive. Same with Gibson Montana. I don't know what models use what glues, but Gibson does use both, depending on the model.

 

Gibson uses, and has used, the same nitro finish ALMOST exclusively even now as we speak.

 

As for the Epiphones, I think you missed the point of the thread. There are many different product lines of Epi, some cheap, some expensive. The "Elitist" the thread is about is the higher end, and they haven't really gone down in quality, but most think up if anything. They aren't imported here at this time. (Not sure if they are making them?).

 

In other words, the quality of the cheaper lines (mostly MIK and MIC) doesn't have anything to do with the Elitist line. Both are made differently, and have different price points. Many would argue the cheaper product lines are better now than they used to be as well.

[Red 333]

T

Gibson/Epiphone got into a little bit of trouble with their early millenium import "Elitist" Epiphones that had the USA stickers on the pick-ups because they were missleading. Notice they dont put those stickers on the Elitest pick-ups anymore?

 

 

The Epiphone Elitist line is/was made in Japan. From about 2002-2008, several acoustic and electric model were available. Today, only the Casino remains availably consistently in the USA and elesewhere. Other Elitists are produced in short runs and are usually available as Japan-only models, and imported privately into the US.

 

During their production, many said the Elitists were comparable to the Custom Shop instruments that Gibson was making at the time. They were very, very good.

 

During the Elitists' heyday, the vast majority of non-Elitist Eiphones were made by various Epiphone subcontractors in Korea. Today, much of Epiphone's production comes from factories Epiphone itself runs in China, as well as from subcontractors in South Korea, Indonesia, and other countries. No Gibsons are made anywhere except the USA (though for a very brief time in the late 2000's, Gibson did manufacture a line of acoustic guitars in Canada).

 

The Elitist electrics did have pickups made in the USA by Gibson, but they were given their own unique Epiphone model numbers (Elitist 50SR/60ST in the Les Pauls, for instance). There is some debate as to whether the 50SR/60ST combos were rebadged classic '57s or 490R/498Ts, but most agree they were excellent, and made with the same quality components as Gibson pups. I have an Elitist ES-335 with the 50SR/60ST combo, a Gibson ES-335 with Classic '57s, and a Gibson ES-333 with 490R/498Ts, and I lean more toward the 50SR/60STs being the 490/498Ts. I have never taken them apart to look, or measured their output with a meter, though.

 

If you don't see "Pickups made in the USA" or "USA designed and made electronics" stickers (or whatever they said) on most Epiphones today it is because there are no Elitists in stores to have stickers, excepting the Elitist Casino!

 

Some current non-Elitists do indeed have Gibson pups, usually artist signatures like the Joe Bonomasa Les Paul, as an example.

 

If your friend had a 1999 Les Paul Elite, it was NOT a model sold under the Elite/Elitist banner. The Elitist line did not exist then (though its predecessor, the Orville brand, was being made in Japan for the Japanese market. This would later morph into the Elitist line for export out of Japan).

 

The Les Paul Elite was a Korean-made semi-hollow Les Paul, like the Les Paul ES. Is that what he has? You can always identify an Elitist by the large red decal under the finish on the back of their neck. Models with a Gibson equivalent (like a Les Paul or a J-45) had a unique "tombstone" shape headstock to differentiate it from the standard clipped dove's wing or other styles that non-Elitists have. Historic Epiphone models (like the Texan, Riviera, or Sheraton) retained their original historic headstock shape.

 

There WAS a kerfluffel with stickers on some Epiphones which read "Assembled in the USA." These were on the John Lennon '65 Casino, John Lennon Revolution Casino, and John Lee Hooker Sheraton. Their bodies were made in the same Japanese factories as the Elitists, but were shipped to the US for installation of the hardware and electronics. Some felt that Epiphone was not as forthcoming as they could be about the difference between "assembled" and "made in," or counted on consumers not to understand the difference. And of course, marketers in every business rely on nationalism, reputation, and even xenophobia to sell products, so they're not unhappy about it! Today, resellers still advertise these as "made in the USA."

 

Both Gibson and Epiphone still use hide glue in some situations. Epiphone uses it in Masterbilt neck joints. Gibson uses it on some electric models neck joints and other components, especially in the custom models. All Gibson acoustic necks are joined with hide glue. Some models use hide glue on the top braces, and some, like the Legend J-45, Legend L-00 and models of that ilk are built entirely with hide glue.

 

As noted by a previous poster, Gibson still uses nitro for all finishes. Epiphone has some nitro-finished models, the Elitist '64 Texan, Elitist '66 Custom Riviera, Elitist '65 Casino Vintage, and Elitist Tamio Okuda Coronet (all Japan-only models). More widely available nitro-finished models are the new ES-295 Premium and ES-175 Premium, both with Gibson pups, too, and at a great price.

 

Red 333

[jmendoza]

Started a new thread to not hijack this one, sorry!