Question about '67 J-50 bracing.

[Sevendaymelee]

Does anyone know what kind of bracing they were using on a 1967, J-50? Was it scalloped? Forward-shifted? Any info would be helpful. 

[zombywoof]

If this is a guitar you own next time you change strings grab an inspection mirror and a good light and go take a look and all will be revealed.  Anyway, Gibson had gone to un-scalloped bracing in 1955.  But it was very well thought out as it added no more mass to it.  I am not, however sure if Gibson changed the footprint when they went to the new bracing.  My impression though is the center of the X was just over 1" from the soundhole.

Edited September 24, 2022 by zombywoof

[slimt]

I checked my 60s - J45s and 50s.
all have Standard  bracing.   No scallops. 

Edited September 24, 2022 by slimt

[Dave F]

Here's a shot of my '68

 

 

[zombywoof]

2 hours ago, slimt said:

I checked my 60s - J45s and 50s.
all have Standard  bracing.   No scallops. 

 The only real change in the design of the bracing made since 1955 came about in 1968 when Gibson seemingly concerned less with sound and more with solving an engineering problem which was how to avoid potential warranty issues started going with a heaver bracing.  

The question which remains is did Gibson shift the bracing footprint when they went to the un-scallop scheme.  If going by the distance from the center of the X to the soundhole I would say no and that it remained at no greater a distance than 1 1/8".  In terms of a rear shifted bracing going by a Martin definition it would place the center of the X at 1 1/2" rather than 1" from the soundhole. 

Edited September 24, 2022 by zombywoof

[slimt]

59 minutes ago, zombywoof said:

 The only real change in the design of the bracing made since 1955 came about in 1968 when Gibson seemingly concerned less with sound and more with solving an engineering problem which was how to avoid potential warranty issues started going with a heaver bracing.  

The question which remains is did Gibson shift the bracing footprint when they went to the un-scallop scheme.  If going by the distance from the center of the X to the soundhole I would say no and that it remained at no greater a distance than 1 1/8".  In terms of a rear shifted bracing going by a Martin definition it would place the center of the X at 1 1/2" rather than 1" from the soundhole. 

I think the forward shift was on AJs, J35s.  If Im reading you right.    
 

now for the X , was it spread apart , or equal pies?  
 

I have a couple Martins that are rear shifed braces. , I would have to look at those on how the X is configured  

[zombywoof]

2 hours ago, slimt said:

I think the forward shift was on AJs, J35s.  If Im reading you right.    
 

now for the X , was it spread apart , or equal pies?  
 

I have a couple Martins that are rear shifed braces. , I would have to look at those on how the X is configured  

Bozeman uses two standard bracing footprints.  One is what they call their AJ or Vintage Style and the other the Standard. The difference though is in the angle with the AJ style being wider.  I believe Bozeman cleared this up in an email someone here on the forum posted.  But this has nothing to do with Kalamazoo built guitars.

Edited September 24, 2022 by zombywoof

[slimt]

3 minutes ago, zombywoof said:

Bozeman uses two standard bracing footprints.  One is what they call their AJ or Vintage Style and the other the Standard. The difference though is in the angle with the AJ style being wider.  I believe Bozeman cleared this up in an email someone here on the forum posted.  But this has nothing to do with Kalamazoo built guitars.

True enough 

[slimt]

3 hours ago, Dave F said:

Here's a shot of my '68

 

 

How does it sound. Looks like alot going on in there.   
 

I know my 67 SJ  had some tone. But not lots of tone.  Your is much the same as mine in side. 

[Dave F]

6 hours ago, slimt said:

How does it sound. Looks like alot going on in there.   
 

I know my 67 SJ  had some tone. But not lots of tone.  Your is much the same as mine in side. 

From the description of yours, my sounds the same. I'm still on the fence on keeping it.

[slimt]

54 minutes ago, Dave F said:

From the description of yours, my sounds the same. I'm still on the fence on keeping it.

They have a unique tone.   I had a Hummingbird pretty much the same. Same year as well.   

[zombywoof]

16 hours ago, slimt said:

I know my 67 SJ  had some tone. But not lots of tone.  Your is much the same as mine in side. 

I will always believe if there is a tone sucker on these guitars it was the oversized maple laminate bridge plate.  When it comes to bridge plates size matters as it is never a good idea to add mass to the top.  The last 1960s Gibson I ever considered buying was a 1967 natural top Hummingbird.  The owner of the store, as was his habit, let me take it home to give the tires a kick.  Even given the skimpy butt neck (at the time I was a bit more forgiving about such specs than I am these days) there was nothing about the sound of the guitar which grabbed me by the collar and shook me around a bit. So, I passed.  

[Sevendaymelee]

For those interested, I asked this question because I noticed that my 70's D-35 sounded closer to one of my favorite records, which just so happens to be recorded using a '67 J-50. I've tried many guitars over the years, even my Southern Jumbo, trying to match that tone. And while my Jumbo got the closest, it wasn't until I gave the 70's D-35 a spin that I felt like I had almost matched it--which was odd, considering how different those guitars are from one another.

But thanks to you guys, I now think I've figured it out.

All my guitars are newer, forward-shifted,  heavily scalloped and have small bridge plates. Since the '67 J-50 has none of those things, it would totally explain why my 70's D-35 can get so close. It's an old guitar, it has a standard-X and un-scalloped braces, and has a large, rosewood bridge plate. So while it's not a perfect match, it's a lot closer.

Really fascinating stuff! 

[slimt]

10 minutes ago, Sevendaymelee said:

For those interested, I asked this question because I noticed that my 70's D-35 sounded closer to one of my favorite records, which just so happens to be recorded using a '67 J-50. I've tried many guitars over the years, even my Southern Jumbo, trying to match that tone. And while my Jumbo got the closest, it wasn't until I gave the 70's D-35 a spin that I felt like I had almost matched it--which was odd, considering how different those guitars are from one another.

But thanks to you guys, I now think I've figured it out.

All my guitars are newer, forward-shifted,  heavily scalloped and have small bridge plates. Since the '67 J-50 has none of those things, it would totally explain why my 70's D-35 can get so close. It's an old guitar, it has a standard-X and un-scalloped braces, and has a large, rosewood bridge plate. So while it's not a perfect match, it's a lot closer.

Really fascinating stuff! 

It is interesting to compare two different guitars. Thats the fun part

I bought a beat up Mossman a month ago from the 70s   . They nailed the tone, playability,     These have there quirts.  But its  permanent  fixture here   .  Franklin is another .   

[zombywoof]

1 hour ago, slimt said:

It is interesting to compare two different guitars. Thats the fun part

I bought a beat up Mossman a month ago from the 70s   . They nailed the tone, playability,     These have there quirts.  But its  permanent  fixture here   .  Franklin is another .   

The major quirk with pre-fire Mossman guitars has given rise to the phrase "The Agony of De' Feet."  I lived in Kansas for just over 15 years where Mossman guitars are still revered.  If I recall properly, Stuart went with a scalloped bracing which was triangular in cross section.  If my memory is correct (which is not always the case) that would have been similar to the bracing carve in pre-1955 Gibsons.

If you have ever seen the movie "The Long Riders" that is Stuart Mossman playing the engineer of the train the James-Younger gang robbed.  Stuart apparently went to where they were filming and presented the cast with guitars.  I guess this is how they thanked him. 

[Murph]

1 hour ago, zombywoof said:

If you have ever seen the movie "The Long Riders" that is Stuart Mossman playing the engineer of the train the James-Younger gang robbed.  Stuart apparently went to where they were filming and presented the cast with guitars.  I guess this is how they thanked him. 

 

What a cool story.

That's one way to make it in the movie biz...

[cunningham26]

for you bridgeplate dorks. i've thought about doing something about mine on my '68 but will probably leave it alone. 

 

[Jinder]

22 hours ago, zombywoof said:

The major quirk with pre-fire Mossman guitars has given rise to the phrase "The Agony of De' Feet."  I lived in Kansas for just over 15 years where Mossman guitars are still revered.  If I recall properly, Stuart went with a scalloped bracing which was triangular in cross section.  If my memory is correct (which is not always the case) that would have been similar to the bracing carve in pre-1955 Gibsons.

If you have ever seen the movie "The Long Riders" that is Stuart Mossman playing the engineer of the train the James-Younger gang robbed.  Stuart apparently went to where they were filming and presented the cast with guitars.  I guess this is how they thanked him. 

The finest sounding guitar I ever played was a ‘73 Mossman Great Plains. The only guitar that has actually brought a tear to my eye with the sheer beauty of the tone. Just a standard Sitka over Indian Rosewood dread, but that thing had some deep, profound magic in that grain. I couldn’t quite afford it at the time and it hurt so badly to leave it on the shelf. It still haunts me. So many songs in that thing. 
 

In keeping with the topic though, one of the best guitars I’ve ever owned is my ‘67 J45. It’s had some work done (back replaced in the ‘80s, jumbo frets, fixed bridge conversion, maybe a replaced bridge plate although cannot tell for sure. Either way, it absolutely sings and is SO resonant and responsive. I use Martin Retro 11s on it…as opposed to the 13s tuned  to Eb I use on everything else. It’s the one I pick up the most, especially at the moment given that it’s the only neck I can play without triggering CTS symptoms as I mentioned in my other thread. Just a gem of a guitar.