My B-25n

[saltybrian]

Hi all, 

Here's my trusty B-25n, not sure when it was made.  Serial is 360860 which I think puts it at 1965, but some features don't seem right for that. 

Anyway, it's such a comfortable guitar to play, and has been with me for 25 years.

In all that time, I've been fairly content, until recently, when I met someone with an earlier model, I think it might have been an LG2. It had a bit more volume about it, and it was so much snappier and responsive - brighter, bassier and sweeter. He told me it had been converted from ladder bracing to X, and it had come alive in that process. 

Brooding on that encounter, I've been looking at LG2s, but living in a pretty remote location, I've not had a chance to play and compare with what I have. 

Reading various posts on here though, I'm now wondering if a change of saddle might give me a lot of what I want. I'd be grateful for any advice for how that's gone for others. 
- Is it possible / practical to replace the saddle only without messing with the bridge?
- Or should I be loking to replace it too? It's lifting slightly at one corner, and on the top. It's been like that for years and shows no sign of movement, but maybe that's contributory to a less than optimum tone also?
- Any other changes I can make to improve the tone?

Thanks!

[saltybrian]

Apologies from a first time poster, I can't figure out how to get more photos uploaded. Here's a few close ups of headstock, bridge etc. 

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/0528wv2q1kduj01hm3nvq/h?dl=0&rlkey=otdpzglx72vjujb15j935p6w6 

Any thoughts much appreciated

[slimt]

B25s all had X braced top.   The bridge is glued to the top. But also has two fine thread screws with nuts underneath the top.  
the saddle adjustment screws are threaded into anchor nuts  

Ive owned a few just like yours. 

[saltybrian]

Thanks for this slimt. 

Sorry, it's not clear in my rambling first post... I know the B-25 is X braced. That was just an aside about the LG2 I encountered. 

My B-25n  has the rosewood bridge and saddle, and I've read that replacing the bridge and saddle (with bone or similar) can improve the guitar. There are a few discussions online about this. I'm wondering if:

a) it's possible to change the rosewood saddle only, and if that would make much of a difference? These saddles are very thick and I don't know if blanks are available that would fill the gap. 
b) I should just try having the whole bridge replaced, since it looks (in the pics I linked to) as if it's lifting a little?

SB

[duluthdan]

https://www.philadelphialuthiertools.com/acoustic-parts/replacement-adjustable-bone-saddle-for-gibson-acoustic-guitars/
this might help. The bone will make a difference. 

[BluesKing777]

3 hours ago, saltybrian said:

Hi all, 

Here's my trusty B-25n, not sure when it was made.  Serial is 360860 which I think puts it at 1965, but some features don't seem right for that. 

Anyway, it's such a comfortable guitar to play, and has been with me for 25 years.

In all that time, I've been fairly content, until recently, when I met someone with an earlier model, I think it might have been an LG2. It had a bit more volume about it, and it was so much snappier and responsive - brighter, bassier and sweeter. He told me it had been converted from ladder bracing to X, and it had come alive in that process. 

Brooding on that encounter, I've been looking at LG2s, but living in a pretty remote location, I've not had a chance to play and compare with what I have. 

Reading various posts on here though, I'm now wondering if a change of saddle might give me a lot of what I want. I'd be grateful for any advice for how that's gone for others. 
- Is it possible / practical to replace the saddle only without messing with the bridge?
- Or should I be loking to replace it too? It's lifting slightly at one corner, and on the top. It's been like that for years and shows no sign of movement, but maybe that's contributory to a less than optimum tone also?
- Any other changes I can make to improve the tone?

Thanks!

My 59 Gibson LG3 is loud and bright, very bright! (straight braced, non scalloped from 1955 -?)

Looking at the photo above, I wonder if the top would ring out more without the soundhole pickup screwed down to the hole.......have you played it acoustically without the pickup there? If it is louder without, you could ditch it and get an internal pickup like a K&K (and preamp....)

 

BluesKing777.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 3, 2022 by BluesKing777

[jedzep]

Honestly, any B25 I have owned or played has run on the quiet side.  In my opinion LG2's and 3's, though vastly 'snappier' have a somewhat muted bass side voice.  Both are small bod sturdy builds with seemingly thicker tops, which contributes to volume and resonance or lack thereof.  I'm no friend of the bulky adjustable saddle bridge, and have actually removed that contraption from the top of one of mine,  including brass threaded inserts, and replaced with a standard RW belly up Gibson slotted bridge with bone saddle.  The results were improved, but not that impressive, even next to the LG2s, so I feel there's an engineered-in design, whether it be bracing or general construction that makes them durable, but quieter beasts. 
 

You may get a bit of satisfaction with bone over RW saddle, and it looks like your break angle off the pins is still good, but the B25 tone is embedded in that overall model construction.  Those thick oversized pick guards don't help either.  If you have a trusted luthier, I'd get the bridge re-seated properly.  He/she might find other setup geometry that, when remedied, will add some meat and shimmer to the sound. 

I've had good results improving resonance on basket case guitars, sanding down the tops to a reduced thickness, and lightening up on the lacquer coating.  Crazy talk, I know, but if I owned a B25N these days and the stars were in alignment, that's what I would do with it.   Might even have a tech shave down the braces.  The guard would go right into the garbage.

Edited November 3, 2022 by jedzep

[zombywoof]

Given the pickguard I would guess your guitar was built in 1968.  If that be the case, it will not only have the stiff oversized laminate bridge plate but heavier bracing than a guitar built just the year before topped off with a thick plastic pickguard.  Not much that can be easily done to lessen the top mass  without, as has been suggested above, resorting to some major surgery such as shaving the braces (or re-bracing it entirely) and replacing the bridge plate and going with a fixed saddle insert (although the bridge in the photos appears to be lifting so will have to be reset).

[saltybrian]

Thanks for all the helpful responses.

Duluthdan: That bone replacement saddle looks like a good place to start, though perhaps since the bridge is lifting now is the time to consider an all new bridge and saddle combo...

Jedzep, good tips, thank you. I don't think I'll be too radical so will save sanding and shaving for round two, if required.    I wouldn't mind removing the scratch plate also, though I'd probably have to have something smaller on there. Have you, or  anyone else tried this and will it come off cleanly enough?

Bluesking, you could be right, but I do a lot of plugged in playing and that set up works for me - the soundhole pickup will need to stay. 

Zombywoof - good knowledge! Thanks for the 68 dating too, can you tell me how that squares with the serial number? 

It's far from a poor instrument, it's held together very well through some mistreatment in my younger days (probably thanks to the heavier build), and actually records very nicely too, so have messaged my luthier incorporating the advice here to get his take on things. 

[jedzep]

Tricky on the pick guard.  They come off easily enough, but the shading underneath won't match the color of the aged top.   I've done it and used UV and light blocking cutouts to re-color, but it's a tedious and long process. 

[zombywoof]

I get it that that serial number indicates one build year and the pickguard another.  The scratchplate, of course, could have been replaced.  But in my 55+ years of playing I have never run across any Gibson acoustic built in 1965 which had a logo on the pickguard.  Problem is unless the guitar dates to early-1965 and retained the 1 11/16" nut there is no easy way of telling one year from the other based on specs.  If the Pros from Dover are correct, the bracing should be heavier on a '68 but you would need one heck of a good eye to tell it from that which came earlier.  I have never really looked though as the combination of a narrow nut, skinny neck carve and skimpy string spacing at the bridge all rolled up together have made Gibsons built from roughly 1965 to1968 a non-starter for me from the get go. 

Edited November 4, 2022 by zombywoof

[cunningham26]

my #1 is a '68 J45 in darkers sunburst with the "sonic boom" logo on the pickguard. only done in '68. it's not like after the clock struck midnight norlin had their way with double bracing, mine is single braced and sounds wonderful. it does have a rather large 3-ply bridgeplate and so it could lighten up with a bridge swap, but i like the sound and dont want to do non-reversable mods. in that same vein i swapped the rw for the drop-in PLS bridge linked above and it made a huge difference in the mids and highs. HIGHLY recommend it especially since you can swap back if you dont jive with it

[zombywoof]

7 hours ago, cunningham26 said:

my #1 is a '68 J45 in darkers sunburst with the "sonic boom" logo on the pickguard. only done in '68. it's not like after the clock struck midnight norlin had their way with double bracing, mine is single braced and sounds wonderful. it does have a rather large 3-ply bridgeplate and so it could lighten up with a bridge swap, but i like the sound and dont want to do non-reversable mods. in that same vein i swapped the rw for the drop-in PLS bridge linked above and it made a huge difference in the mids and highs. HIGHLY recommend it especially since you can swap back if you dont jive with it

ECL Industries (which would shortly change its name to Norlin) did not purchase a majority stake in Gibson's parent company CMI until late in 1969.  

Edited November 4, 2022 by zombywoof

[BluesKing777]

 

The soundhole pickup looks like a Fishman Rare Earth to me, pic a bit blurry - if it is, there are 2 screws holding it to the soundhole and actually making a very stiff brace on the guitar top! Fine for amplified but will deaden the sound acoustically. Before I did anything else, I would loosen those 2 screws, lift the pickup gently out of the hole, play the guitar with the pickup leaning gently on the top or your knee. Voila, you have top vibrations again. You can put the pickup back in later....

Years ago, my 59 LG3 arrived with a large soundhole pickup, removed it (put it in a beater) and had an internal pickup installed, seeing as previous owner had drilled a plughole.....

There is the reason they went with original bridge with wood saddle  - a bone saddle can make these small Gibsons really squawky. So too putting bone pins in - I went back to the old plastic ones as the bone pins really made it different. Normally I couldn’t tell. And...I could never play mine with a pick.....yikes, bare fingerpicking is great. As Jedzep said, not a lot of bass but for fingers, great.

 

BluesKing777.

 

 

Edited November 4, 2022 by BluesKing777

[zombywoof]

1 hour ago, BluesKing777 said:

 

There is the reason they went with original bridge with wood saddle  - a bone saddle can make these small Gibsons really squawky. So too putting bone pins in - I went back to the old plastic ones as the bone pins really made it different. Normally I couldn’t tell. And...I could never play mine with a pick.....yikes, bare fingerpicking is great. As Jedzep said, not a lot of bass but for fingers, great.

 

BluesKing777.

 

 

I prefer the rosewood saddle over bone and anything else I have tried on my '61 B45-12.  I guess I find it is warmer sounding.   I always figured Gibson at least initially went with a wood saddle because that was the route they had always taken with archtops with adjustable bridges.  With pins though I have never heard any appreciably difference no matter what material they were fashioned with.  So, my only preference is they be unslotted.

I have always fingerpicked with my bare fingers.  Lawdy knows I have tried to make peace with fingerpicks because I do like the way they sound on certain guitars such as my 1920 L3.  And someday I will prevail.

[BluesKing777]

Only way to get used to fingerpicks ....thumbpick + 2 fingerpicks = put them on, wrap gaffa tape around them and never, ever, ever play without the picks ON for at least...12 months.

You will play faster and way louder, but lose the beautiful thumbed note tone and the separation you get from treble, and all those tone variation and up strums and....and....and...

I only play with fingerpicks these days to break in a new guitar top, blast it hard and fast with everything I have to save buying those torrefied top things.......and like riding a bike, I just start and weirdly keep going as if nothing else ever happened! Some freaky types only use fingerpicks live but bare fingers at home! I need to be a bit more consistent than that, but...

Edited November 5, 2022 by BluesKing777

[jedzep]

I like your full finger pick (bondage)  immersion methodology, BK, but spending all my playing years flat picking has relegated me to a tricycle rider finger style level.  I'm working on it, with YT lesson suggestions you made.  I've failed hopelessly with the fingers, but I have at least made peace with a Fred Kelly Slick Pick thumb pick, which I've shaped, rounded and shortened down.  This pronounced bass volume has helped me with my rhythm and timing, making finger style playing enjoyable.  Redundancy is the mother of retention, of course, but maybe 'Salty's' B25 tone (if he's a finger picker) would even out with thumb picked bass strings and natural finger tip mid and treble.  You can't make a house cat roar, but perhaps, with a couple minor set up changes and a some string combo experimentation, he can get it to voice out to a pleasing compromise.  A couple nickel bronze strings here and there on a quiet guitar...?




 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 5, 2022 by jedzep

[BluesKing777]

Fingerpicking WILL improve also with full bondage immersion technology.....fingerpick or nothing!

Same with learning music, TAB, playing solo instead of using a band as crutch (played one set solo guitar in bands 4 sets for years and lots of punters kept saying to ditch the band....go cold turkey! Which I did but then got.....old. 😁). Where is that rotten roadie when you face a stairwell to gig?

Does not matter, just enjoy the ride!

BluesKing777.

 

 

Edited November 5, 2022 by BluesKing777

[zombywoof]

My problem is I have the attention span of a gnat so sticking with anything for a full year is going to be a hard row to hoe. I just get frustrated and drop the whole thing returning to my same old used to be,   But has anybody else tried the Kalena fingerpicks?  They are fashioned along the lines of an Alaska fingerpick but with a bit more substance.  

[BluesKing777]

 

Well that brings up another tip.....

Just get a couple of sets of plain Jane Dunlop white plastic thumbpick and fingerpicks  - you can buy them pretty much anywhere and the white ones are easy to find if you drop them!

I have a tin of the various thumbpick ‘failures’ - the Failure Tin!

For resophonic, exchange the white plastic for the Dunlop metal fingerpicks, maybe......

 

BluesKing777.

 

[saltybrian]

Hi again, 

I tried taking the pickup out (it is indeed a Rare Earth) but if that makes a difference it's more subtle than these ears can detect.

I play with a pick so while I found the fingerstyle stuff interesting I can't pass comment.  Genre wise, I play a blend of Scottish tunes and songs, sometimes flat-picking the melody, sometimes  accompaniment in a swingy kind of style. The guitar suits the chord work especially well. 

I've ordered a tusq replacement saddle, will see what that does, and leave the bridge itself and pick guard for now. It's playing a bit sharp from fret 1 so  a trip to the tech is due anyway - that's a 4hr ferry + 6hr drive of a  round trip and overnight stay away, so hopefully worthwhile... 

Thanks all. 

[zombywoof]

1 hour ago, saltybrian said:

Hi again, 

I tried taking the pickup out (it is indeed a Rare Earth) but if that makes a difference it's more subtle than these ears can detect.

I play with a pick so while I found the fingerstyle stuff interesting I can't pass comment.  Genre wise, I play a blend of Scottish tunes and songs, sometimes flat-picking the melody, sometimes  accompaniment in a swingy kind of style. The guitar suits the chord work especially well. 

I've ordered a tusq replacement saddle, will see what that does, and leave the bridge itself and pick guard for now. It's playing a bit sharp from fret 1 so  a trip to the tech is due anyway - that's a 4hr ferry + 6hr drive of a  round trip and overnight stay away, so hopefully worthwhile... 

Thanks all. 

I lived in Scotland during the mid-1970s for a bit.  Was hoping to get the hang of playing a Strathspey on the fiddle while I was there.   It never happened.  Spent a whole lot of time though hanging around in the back of Sandy Bell's.  And it was a whole lot of fun getting to sit in with the likes of Aly Bain when he was in town.

[BluesKing777]

5 hours ago, saltybrian said:

Hi again, 

I tried taking the pickup out (it is indeed a Rare Earth) but if that makes a difference it's more subtle than these ears can detect.

I play with a pick so while I found the fingerstyle stuff interesting I can't pass comment.  Genre wise, I play a blend of Scottish tunes and songs, sometimes flat-picking the melody, sometimes  accompaniment in a swingy kind of style. The guitar suits the chord work especially well. 

I've ordered a tusq replacement saddle, will see what that does, and leave the bridge itself and pick guard for now. It's playing a bit sharp from fret 1 so  a trip to the tech is due anyway - that's a 4hr ferry + 6hr drive of a  round trip and overnight stay away, so hopefully worthwhile... 

Thanks all. 

 

Yep, but it IS best to try a few things that you can do before going to the mechanic, say, and look dopey as you tell him your car is ....'broken', 'not working'....which can give them carte blanche to put in new motor and gearbox......

Same with luthiers! (But we need them!)

Let us know what happens.

 

BluesKing777.

 

[jedzep]

Pretty sure I'd just ship it. 

[QuestionMark]

On 11/2/2022 at 8:13 PM, saltybrian said:

Apologies from a first time poster, I can't figure out how to get more photos uploaded. Here's a few close ups of headstock, bridge etc. 

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/0528wv2q1kduj01hm3nvq/h?dl=0&rlkey=otdpzglx72vjujb15j935p6w6 

Any thoughts much appreciated

BTW.  I see you were able to get photos to show through using Dropbox links.  That’s an interesting way to share photos.  If Dropbox works, I assume photos links via Google Docs would also work.  Interesting.

QM aka “Jazzman” Jeff