Has anyone EVER had 3/64 action AND clean full step bends of the high E string at the 12-21's fret?

[rpavich]

After owning lots of guitars and being frustrated by most of them in this regard I've come to the conclusion that it's just not possible to have both a Gibson spec 3/64" action AND a dead-clean 1 to 1/12 step bend on the high E string above the 12th fret given the 12" radius of the guitar fingerboard....the geometry just doesn't work out.

When the high E string starts to move sideways, it can't help but be choked out give the 12" radius of the fingerboard...so the only remedy is to raise the action to about 4.5/64 or so depending on your tolerance for "not quite clean" notes. The other strings get progressively better, the B is second in the choke race and then the G is no problem because it's already at the peak of the radius...and generally speaking I don't bend the D, A, or low E very much.

Bummer...

 

Edited July 2 by rpavich

[Pinch]

I've never measured action, but so long as it's PLEK'd...

[sparquelito]

It can be done, but you have to want it. 

It's a matter of desire, perseverance, and sheer guts. 

They say that, as a matter of physics, a bumblebee should not be able to fly. 
But fly it does. 

 

We could all learn a lesson from that stalwart, tough little bumblebee. 
🙂

[rpavich]

1 hour ago, sparquelito said:

It can be done, but you have to want it. 

It's a matter of desire, perseverance, and sheer guts. 

They say that, as a matter of physics, a bumblebee should not be able to fly. 
But fly it does. 

 

We could all learn a lesson from that stalwart, tough little bumblebee. 
🙂

Actually, I didn't say physics...I said geometry...see the attached picture. Given the radius of the fingerboard and the  position of the high E...it seems (and I've never had a guitar that could do this EVEN THE PLEK'D ONE that I have now.) Either the action is dead low and bends at the 15th fret are a bit "choked" OR...the action is a bit higher and the bends are ok...

As you can see in the picture...at some point in the travel of the E string during a bend, you will choke.

Never have I gotten both at once.

I'm asking: has anyone VERIFIED that they have stock gibson action (3/64th treble side) AND clean, no buzz, no rattle, no choke full step bends at the 15th fret area?
 

Edited July 2 by rpavich

[rpavich]

2 hours ago, Pinch said:

I've never measured action, but so long as it's PLEK'd...

I'm asking because I just had a guitar plea'd and while the action is good...(It was 2.5/64)...BUT NOT while having the ability to bend 1 to 1.5 steps above the 12th fret.

I had to have the tech raise the action to 4/64 to get clean "above 12th fret bends" See the picture in my other comment about the geometry

[rpavich]

I guess I got my answer: I googled "bends choke out at high frets" and found LOTS of information on "fall away" at the last 5 or 6 frets. I guess to get both, many folks ramp the last 5 or 6 frets down to flatten the radius and alleviate the condition shown in the picture that I embedded a comment or two ago...the whole geometry vs bending issue.
Which is why compound radius' also exist...comfort in the radius...and then flattening as you go down the fretboard so that bends up high don't choke.

thanks for the replies...

[PrairieDog]

Why do you care about the measurements?  Just set it up so that it works for you. Plenty of well known players are bending their high E above the 12th and seem to be mighty successful, at least they haven’t lost their record deals over it.  The factory is just the common suggestion.  It’s not gospel.  Most folks tweak the set up to suit their style.  What do you want? To have them change the otherwise overall well designed fret board just so that high E strings can bend fine above the 12th?  

[rpavich]

Just now, PrairieDog said:

Why do you care about the measurements?  Just set it up so that it works for you. Plenty of well known players are bending their high E above the 12th and seem to be mighty successful, at least they haven’t lost their record deals over it.  The factory is just the common suggestion.  It’s not gospel.  Most folks tweak the set up to suit their style.  What do you want? To have them change the otherwise overall well designed fret board just so that high E strings can bend fine above the 12th?  

I care because I want two things simultaneously....
action that's Gibson Spec (3/64")
The ability to bend on all frets without a fret out.

It seemed like a reasonable thing to ask before I started looking into why it was so difficult to get. I can bend just fine above the 12th fret...as long as I keep my action at 5/64....which I don't like...too high...

I was just asking if anyone here has achieved both at the same time...that's all....so far...nobody.

 

[PrairieDog]

11 minutes ago, rpavich said:

I care because I want two things simultaneously....
action that's Gibson Spec (3/64")
The ability to bend on all frets without a fret out.

It seemed like a reasonable thing to ask before I started looking into why it was so difficult to get. I can bend just fine above the 12th fret...as long as I keep my action at 5/64....which I don't like...too high...

I was just asking if anyone here has achieved both at the same time...that's all....so far...nobody.

 

Geesh, you just posted the question 6 hours ago! That is the middle of the night for the US folks here on the board.  Let the experts here have a cup of coffee before they try chime in to try to address your quibble.

And for the record,  you did get a couple answers from two folks who observed it may not be a universal issue… but you didn’t like that.  

I suggest you go listen to some EVH or Slash, and ask if all those high E string bends above the 12th were “not possible.” 

Really, dude, if you can’t play the guitar the way you like, you know you aren’t married to it. Just toss it back for one with the specs that pleases you better.  

[sparquelito]

[CROWB8]

38 minutes ago, rpavich said:

I was just asking if anyone here has achieved both at the same time...that's all....so far...nobody.

I have. On most all of them. But I set my guits up (electrics) while plugged in. And I don't measure anything. I like my setup slammed. Prior to pleeking, every guit was different. In some aspects, they still are. Since I toss the ten gauges for eights, even the pleeked ones are different amongst themselves.

There's a lot of forgiveness with setups when plugged in. Much doesn't show up.

I *can see the issue if one goes strictly by the numbers and it's not plugged in.

Edit.

But that's me. What I might accept, someone else may not.

Edited July 2 by CROWB8

[duane v]

I've learned the action never stays the same, especially if you don't keep you guitars in a controlled environment. IMO, I think it's asking too much of a guitar to stay in one place all the time. especially when talking about 0.04"...... Just seems a bit unreasonable to me.

If guitars had ultimate stability, guitar players wouldn't need guitar techs when touring. 

[Rabs]

Yes.. I have no problem bending my strings at all past the12th fret...  As for the height of the strings, I have never measured them but its a low action I can tell you that.

I think it depends on the exact neck angel. The necks are still fitted and adjusted by hand so each one is slightly different...  Cos I know on my LP Classic, it doesnt matter how high or low the bridge is, it just plays perfect any way I set it up.

[rpavich]

28 minutes ago, CROWB8 said:

///I have. On most all of them. But I set my guits up (electrics) while plugged in. And I don't measure anything. I like my setup slammed. ////


If you don't measure how do you know you have achieved 3/64?

////Prior to pleeking, every guit was different. In some aspects, they still are. Since I toss the ten gauges for eights, even the pleeked ones are different amongst themselves.

There's a lot of forgiveness with setups when plugged in. Much doesn't show up.

I *can see the issue if one goes strictly by the numbers and it's not plugged in.

Edit.

But that's me. What I might accept, someone else may not.////

I get that you like what you have and that it feels low enough for you while not rattling on the higher frets but I was asking if anyone has achieved 3/64ths PLUS no rattle or buzz while making 1 to 1.5 step bends.,

The geometry doesn't seem to allow it. Unless you accidentally have a "compound radius" or "fade" in your 12-21 fret area

 

[rpavich]

48 minutes ago, PrairieDog said:

1.) Geesh, you just posted the question 6 hours ago! That is the middle of the night for the US folks here on the board.  Let the experts here have a cup of coffee before they try chime in to try to address your quibble.

2.) And for the record,  you did get a couple answers from two folks who observed it may not be a universal issue… but you didn’t like that.  

3.) I suggest you go listen to some EVH or Slash, and ask if all those high E string bends above the 12th were “not possible.” 

4.) Really, dude, if you can’t play the guitar the way you like, you know you aren’t married to it. Just toss it back for one with the specs that pleases you better.  

1.) I'm not quibbling..I'm answering and clarifying what I ACTUALLY ASKED...not what folks THOUGHT I asked.

2.) I didn't like the answer to a question that I didn't ask...

3.) I didn't ask if EVH or Slash can bend above the 12th fret...

4.) Thanks for the unhelpful insult.

 

[rpavich]

I guess I'll signed off of this topic...nobody seems to be able to read the exact thing I asked and answer the exact thing I asked...and I don't like being insulted just because I asked a question.

 

[duane v]

2 minutes ago, rpavich said:

I guess I'll signed off of this topic...nobody seems to be able to read the exact thing I asked and answer the exact thing I asked...and I don't like being insulted just because I asked a question.

 

Try being a Moderator around here.... lol...

Don't sweat it...... Just try and find a comfort area with the action.

[rpavich]

Just now, duane v said:

Try being a Moderator around here.... lol...

Don't sweat it...... Just try and find a comfort area with the action.

thanks for the laugh...that's what I ended up doing.

[CROWB8]

6 minutes ago, rpavich said:

nobody seems to be able to read the exact thing

And I feel you missed my point sir.

Point was,

A setup may fail your spec needs, but pass an audible test when plugged in.

Edited July 2 by CROWB8

[Sgt. Pepper]

13 minutes ago, rpavich said:

1.) I'm not quibbling..I'm answering and clarifying what I ACTUALLY ASKED...not what folks THOUGHT I asked.

2.) I didn't like the answer to a question that I didn't ask...

3.) I didn't ask if EVH or Slash can bend above the 12th fret...

4.) Thanks for the unhelpful insult.

 

Here is what you do, if you know how to set up a guitar put you $ where your mouth is and do it, or take it to a pro and have them achieve your goal. 

Edited July 2 by Sgt. Pepper

[fortyearspickn]

RPavich,      When all you have is a hammer - every problem looks like a nail.

People come here and ask  "Is an SJ200 as loud as a J45?" 

And get answers like -   "What pickup?"  ,   "Try Elixir Strings" ,   "A Dove is louder than both. "   You have to wait a week or so before someone who actually has an SJ200 and a J45 to go pluck them both and then write back.       If you said  'I get buzz when I'm at 3/64ths, someone  would tell you to go to 2/24ths.  Because it's smaller.  

If you pushback on the reading comprehension issue -   you'll start getting  snarkiness.   It's Social Media-its.  

[Sgt. Pepper]

7 hours ago, rpavich said:

Actually, I didn't say physics...I said geometry...see the attached picture. Given the radius of the fingerboard and the  position of the high E...it seems (and I've never had a guitar that could do this EVEN THE PLEK'D ONE that I have now.) Either the action is dead low and bends at the 15th fret are a bit "choked" OR...the action is a bit higher and the bends are ok...

As you can see in the picture...at some point in the travel of the E string during a bend, you will choke.

Never have I gotten both at once.

I'm asking: has anyone VERIFIED that they have stock gibson action (3/64th treble side) AND clean, no buzz, no rattle, no choke full step bends at the 15th fret area?
 

Buy a new guitar and tell us what height it was at. That will show us.

[PrairieDog]

4 hours ago, fortyearspickn said:

If you pushback on the reading comprehension issue -   you'll start getting  snarkiness.   It's Social Media-its.  

And the corollary is posters taking offense and reading tone where none is intended.  Not sure how I “insulted” him.  

On the contrary, I understood exactly what he was asking.  In my answer, at least, I was merely observing the question is a bit pedantic.  

Look at it this way: He’s asking the equivalent of, “my car was rated to get x miles per gallon, but when I drive it I get different mileage, unless I drive it in a way I don’t like.  Has anyone ever been able to get what the sticker says they should, and still drive the car they way they want?”  The car sticker is based on wheels running on a treadmill inside a testing lab and means nothing to how we drive in the real world.  

Apparently what’s got him miffed is the range of answers observing folks here at least don’t seem to worry about the factory numbers.

I thought the answers he got were pretty good.  I suspect he thought he was going to get a chorus of agreement, not a bunch of folks saying they just work around what he finds to be an apparently unacceptable problem.  

Shrug, he knows his options.  

 

Edited July 2 by PrairieDog

[sparquelito]

It probably would have been helpful to create a poll to go along with the question that was posed in the OP's second posting in this thread. 

POLL:  Has anyone VERIFIED that they have stock Gibson action (3/64th treble side) AND clean, no buzz, no rattle, no choke full step bends at the 15th fret area?
a. Yes.
b. No. 
c. I'm not sure. I'll go check and see. 
d. I really don't give a $h1t. 

 

I choose d. 

🙂

 

[CROWB8]

7 hours ago, rpavich said:

///I have. On most all of them. But I set my guits up (electrics) while plugged in. And I don't measure anything. I like my setup slammed. ////


If you don't measure how do you know you have achieved 3/64?

I do apologize rpavich. Sincerely. I didn't catch that part. Guilty as charged....

I started playing in the mid '60s. I started, like most, with a setup by the numbers. Back then most ran EB .008s on their guits and slammed the action down to where is had light fret buzz. So that didn't work. But when plugged in, that didn't show. I would hear it on albums, some fret buzz during heavy feed back. I knew why and never had my guits action left measured by the techs after they were intonated. Still old school to this day. Hence my setups, by default, exceed those specs.

Edited July 2 by CROWB8