Gibson Bashing on AGF

[ksdaddy]

Modfather' date=' are we allowed to say "wankers" on this site?[/quote']

 

I find that term about as offensive and untrue as "Hey, you air breather!" or "Hey, I bet you were given birth to by your mother!" or "I'll bet you will die some day!"

 

Nodehopper, Jesus would play a Fender Strat with a vintage tremolo because HE could keep it in tune!

[Eddie Rondack]

Eddie and DAS44 - just to clarify so I don't offend my friends here on the Gibby Forum.

 

1) even though they state in their Forum rules no religious posts ......it is still very pervasive and overlooked by the mods because there is an unwritten Christian bias.

 

2) the real eye opener for me over there was a thread that asked the question "What custom builder would you like to commission a guitar from?" and one reply was from a user who simply oozes that he is very Christian ...even his user name is something like "Worship Guitar" and he has a Psalm as his tag line. He replied that he would choose a specific builder who posts there and his reasoning was because the builder seemed to be such a good Christian. This builders guitar base price is close to $7K so I replied that I felt if Jesus was going to pick a guitar to sing praise that' date=' with starving and sick children still in the world, he would never spend $7,000 to $10,000 on a guitar. He would probably buy a $500 Seagull and spend the rest on humanitarianism. My post was, with in 10 minutes, deleted by a Mod (who is also very openly Christian) with out even a PM to me explaining why.

 

So if there was a bit if an edge to my initial post....I wanted to explain so we understand why. I hope you understand

 

[/quote']

 

I get you... no problem.

[rscott4079]

I like the AGF. I think of all the guitar forums it's the best place to go for genuine tips and techiques about playing and maintaining acoustic guitars. Less "brand" talk, more nitty gritty guitar talk.

 

I consider there to be two groups of folks over there - players of low to middle grade instruments, and players of expensive boutique instruments. There is a little bit of bias over there in general against the highly commercial expensive guitars, specifically Gibson and Martins. But to be fair, Gibson and Martin afficianados have there own forums so they're less represented on the AGF.

 

Love the UMGF. Their Vintage area is a staple of my guitar forum diet. I also recommend the Fender Forum as a wonderful place to discuss those e-lectric geetars and amp-lee-fiers.

[DAS44]

I "I'll bet you will die some day!"

Ok five bucks that I'm immortal

[mwd]

Those guys over on Acoustic Guitar forum tend to be a bunch of rich christian DADGAD playing guitar snobs. Basically if it isn't a $15K custom build they turn their arrogant noses up and tell someone who is posting about a new guitar acquisition that until they have also played a "REAL" guitar they are complete losers! A bunch of those guys over there are like if Rush Limbaugh played guitar and posted on guitar forums.

 

I'm a brand new Gibson Forum member and the post above was a giant turn-off for me. (How do I know I'm welcome here?) I don't know why was it necessary to inject personal biases and prejudices into a forum that's supposed to be about the thing we all have in common: A love for Gibson guitars.

 

I read the posts on the AGF thread. Sure' date=' some of the post-ers didn't love Gibsons like we do. So what? Other post-ers on that thread DID love them. Still others pointed out it's a matter of mystery and taste as to which guitar grabs our hearts. I did NOT see anyone identifying themselves as being "rich", "Christian" or a "snob". Anyway, what's wrong with being rich or with being a Christian? Sounds like somebody else is the snob here. And if Rush Limbaugh did love to play guitars and wanted to post on guitar forums, nothing would be wrong with that, either. I'd say rock on, brother, I love guitars too!

 

I've conversed with and sought advice [u']and[/u] Gibson guitars (Hummingbird/J45) from AGF folks and found them to be sincere, welcoming. Yes, they offered opinions - but they were just that -- opinions. We don't have to publicly denigrate people if they're different from us.

[Gitfidl]

Those guys over on Acoustic Guitar forum tend to be a bunch of rich christian DADGAD playing guitar snobs. Basically if it isn't a $15K custom build they turn their arrogant noses up and tell someone who is posting about a new guitar acquisition that until they have also played a "REAL" guitar they are complete losers!

 

Strange complaint coming from THIS forum. This is the most hostile group of people in the entire guitar world. You are ready to POUNCE on anyone (like spiders) who dares not to know model numbers' date=' serial numbers, part numbers or 1943 fretboard characteristics.

 

And you call the Acoustic Guitar formum hostile? I do not go over there much, but nobody anywhere is as hostile as this group .. and the worst of all is the Gibson political forum (whatever that call that) where they seeth with hatred and venom. I am surprised that Gibson allows this group of forums to exist under its brand name.

 

I quit going here -- I got so tired of being stomped if I asked a simple question or was not studied on models and serial numbers and historical trivia. I like my Gibson (plain and new and [i']uncollectable [/i]as it is -- I saved a long time to have it and I would not part with it ), but this forum is a black eye for Gibson. And they do nothing to mitigate the unfriendliness one experiences here. (spoiled rich kids? snolbs? look in the mirror -- that's you)

 

This forum takes the cake for hostile and unfriendly. You are in no position to cast aspersions at anyone. That said I will log out and stay away. (go ahead .. fresh meat .. go into your feeding frenzy like sharks)

[rscott4079]

You are ready to POUNCE on anyone (like spiders) who dares not to know model numbers, serial numbers, part numbers or 1943 fretboard characteristics.

 

While I agree that the original post was poorly worded and inappropriate, I don't seem to remember anyone "pouncing" on anyone for the transgressions to which you refer. Perhaps you could link a couple of posts here as an example.

[Gitfidl]

Not really trying to stoke the fire' date=' but I find it interesting that nobody objected to the original poster's usage of "christian" as a negative term... shouldn't it work both ways? I'm a Christian and I can easily get past the name-calling, but it does trouble me a bit...[/quote']

 

Exactly my point: They use religious insults (and political and social insults) to call the other board intolerant? This board is the most intolerant of any. ["how dare you not realize a 1943 tuning machine was made at Jones Tool & Die in Toledo Ohio? .. you know nothing about Gibson, you stupid fool" ... oh those nasty Acoustic Forum members forgot to say "may I" when they answered my question -- they must be rich Christians who listen to Rush Limbaugh]

 

I am not rich. I am Christian. I am not a communist nor am I a socialist free loader. I served my country honorably and am proud I did. I raised two Christian daughters who are raising their children to the Christian faith -- a right that used to be guaranteed by our U.S. Constitution. I do not hate anyone nor do I wish ill fortune upon anyone.

 

I earned my degrees on the G.I. Bill and I earned the G.I. Bill (the hard way -- the only way) it was an inducement to enlist. I earned my income one dollar at a time and I earned two for every one that I got paid. I have the "Protestant work ethic" which meant I showed up on time, did a full says work, and did not expect to get anything I did not earn.

 

I always treated women with respect even when they did not want to be treated with respect. I wouldn't have it any other way and I do resent being insulted for having been a gentleman and a Christian.

[dwolf]

I don't appreciate the discussions in the "Lounge"." I don't find it relevant to Gibsons or, usually to guitars. Funny, I don't see many of the same posters in that area as in the Acoustic Forum. So, not sure if it's really fair to equate the Acoustic forum to the Lounge. I don't really see the Lounge as being very relevant at all. It's mostly a bunch of shouting--religion, politics, put-downs. But, Gibson allows a place for folks who wish, to go play in the sandbox and throw things. Seems Gibson has erred on the side of open communication and has provided that section of the forum--whether that's right or wrong, who knows, but it keeps a segment happy and the rest of us can avoid it. I think Nodehopper might have tempered his initial comments a bit. After reading his explanation, it sounds like he was calling it like he sees it. Don't know whether I'd agree, but that's his opinion. Gitfidl, I hate to see folks leaving the forum who have something to contribute. I don't think Nodehopper was criticizing religion as much as he was commenting on hypocrisy. I think he could have clarified his initial statement and folks wouldn't have had such a hard time with it.

Dwight

[mwd]

Eddie and DAS44 - just to clarify so I don't offend my friends here on the Gibby Forum.

 

1) even though they state in their Forum rules no religious posts ......it is still very pervasive and overlooked by the mods because there is an unwritten Christian bias.

 

2) the real eye opener for me over there was a thread that asked the question "What custom builder would you like to commission a guitar from?" and one reply was from a user who simply oozes that he is very Christian ...even his user name is something like "Worship Guitar" and he has a Psalm as his tag line. He replied that he would choose a specific builder who posts there and his reasoning was because the builder seemed to be such a good Christian. This builders guitar base price is close to $7K so I replied that I felt if Jesus was going to pick a guitar to sing praise that' date=' with starving and sick children still in the world, he would never spend $7,000 to $10,000 on a guitar. He would probably buy a $500 Seagull and spend the rest on humanitarianism. My post was, with in 10 minutes, deleted by a Mod (who is also very openly Christian) with out even a PM to me explaining why.

 

So if there was a bit if an edge to my initial post....I wanted to explain so we understand why. I hope you understand

 

[/quote']

 

 

A. Why is it Christian "bias" if the guy/lady has the username "Worship Guitar"? Their username, their choice. I'm more into High-Church and hymns myself, can't stomach "praise music" and am "gimmick-free", but can't this person choose whatever name they want to? Why can't they have a Psalm as their tag line?

 

DIVERSITY, YES?

 

B. They responded to the question in the thread. If THEIR dream guitar would be built by a custom builder who is also a Christian, well, that's their dream builder, right? You shouldn't assume things or criticize somebody for saying what they want for THEM. And, It's a bit of a ... uh... stretch to speculate on "What Would Jesus Do" if he was picking out a guitar builder. He'd "get a Seagull" and spend the remainder of the 7,000 "on humanitarianism"? You meant that as a humorous response, not seriously, right? But the fact remains, that post-er should be able to pick whatever builder for whatever reasons without being held to a different standard, judged, criticized or have assumptions made about them. That may be why the post got deleted. Don't be so keyed up about how people express who they are and just share the love of guitars. You and ol "Worship Guitar" would probably be best buds if you met!

 

[Gitfidl]

Gitfidl' date=' I hate to see folks leaving the forum who have something to contribute. Dwight[/quote']

 

I thank you for that. I am very proud to own a Gibson guitar. I asked my daughter not to give it to my grandson until he is 25 -- oh I do not plan on leaving this earth any time soon -- but she agreed. I love my Gibson guitar.

 

I worked for Gibson in 1956-59 -- the Chicago Musical Instrument Co. 7373 N. Cicero Ave., Lincolnwood Illinois. I knew Maurice Berlin and Arnold Berlin and all of the people at CMI -- not Kalamazoo. It took me years to afford another one. But I love it. I played my first Gibson with Johnny Rector (CMI employee) Jazz Knights, Art Van Damme and sat in with Count Basie's open mike at the "Club Laurel" on Broadway N. of WIlson (1957-8-9 -- 1963-4-5). I knew Freddie Green (a Gibson guitar owner) and Herb Ellis occasionally came to CMI -- I admired him (still do).

 

I went down to the south side to the Sutherland Hotel and saw Ramsey Lewis, Oscar Peterson, Dakota Staton, Thel Monk ... and I visited the storefronts of Howlling Wolf, Muddy Waters and BB King. (They were ALL Chicago people)

 

I have been a Gibson admirer for a long time even when I was not a Gibson owner. I had to get my kids raised and educations paid off before I could buy a Gibson.

 

I was on this forum for a number of months but it is a very sad thing that (a few in this group) can get CROSS with someone over trivia and just be a verbal buzz saw. So I finally quit logging on here (for the same reason Nodehopper will quit AGF ... he feels unwelcome.

 

I understand how poster Nodehopper was smarting from responses at the Acoustic Guitar forum (which are mainly Taylor owners and Martin owners) .. but Nodehopper thought nothing about what he said (even as complained that the AGF -- and he blasted Christians and called them people "rich" - I guess that's bad -- and Rush Limbaugh listeners?) Well the good Lord has helped me to avoid being rich, so that is one sin I will not need to explain.

 

It would be nice if people on these forums THOUGHT about what they say, how they respond, and whether what they actually say is what they are trying to say .

[rscott4079]

Exactly my point: They use religious insults (and political and social insults) to call the other board intolerant? This board is the most intolerant of any. ["how dare you not realize a 1943 tuning machine was made at Jones Tool & Die in Toledo Ohio? .. you know nothing about Gibson' date= you stupid fool" ... oh those nasty Acoustic Forum members forgot to say "may I" when they answered my question -- they must be rich Christians who listen to Rush Limbaugh]

 

I am not rich. I am Christian. I am not a communist nor am I a socialist free loader. I served my country honorably and am proud I did. I raised two Christian daughters who are raising their children to the Christian faith -- a right that used to be guaranteed by our U.S. Constitution. I do not hate anyone nor do I wish ill fortune upon anyone.

 

I earned my degrees on the G.I. Bill and I earned the G.I. Bill (the hard way -- the only way) it was an inducement to enlist. I earned my income one dollar at a time and I earned two for every one that I got paid. I have the "Protestant work ethic" which meant I showed up on time, did a full says work, and did not expect to get anything I did not earn.

 

I always treated women with respect even when they did not want to be treated with respect. I wouldn't have it any other way and I do resent being insulted for having been a gentleman and a Christian.

 

Hey Mr. Holier-Than-Thou - I also earned my degree though the GI Bill. I spent 21 years in military service to my country and retired from same. And I can tell you that every one of the personality traits that you've attached to yourself in your post, I also identify myself with. However, I resent the political implications that you're tossing around. And I resent that because of your own personal political beliefs, you somehow consider yourself closer to God than others. But most of all, I resent the fact that you complain about being insulted in one sentence, and then hurl insults of your own in the next. Some Gentleman.

 

A young man once said, "Those who are without sin, cast the first stone." I suggest we all take a lesson from him.

[Gitfidl]

This builders guitar base price is close to $7K so I replied that I felt if Jesus was going to pick a guitar to sing praise that, with starving and sick children still in the world, he would never spend $7,000 to $10,000 on a guitar. He would probably buy a $500 Seagull and spend the rest on humanitarianism. My post was, with in 10 minutes, deleted by a Mod (who is also very openly Christian) with out even a PM to me explaining why.

 

Here agains in someone (Nodehopper) trying to impose his "ostentatious morality" on someone else. He implies that his moral standard requires ALL OTHERS to spend every penny on "starving children" and not on guitars. And yet this same Nodehopper has a $2,000 guitar and a computer and other possessions -- in short he is not following the footsteps of Mother Teresa (and most likely because he does not have the courage to follow in her footsteps), but he will impose THAT standard on anyone who takes exception with him. I find that to be hypocritcal, false and (since it is pointed at Chrisitian worshipers) insulting.

 

It is clear that Nodehopper is NOT Christian and does not understand (anything) about the Christian faith (not a religion -- there are many religions). He does not understand anything about genuine charity (his false comparative morality is actually an example of conceit -- pride goeth before destruction -- and not of charitable love). We do not ask HIM to practice our faith or even to understand it (it takes some effort and application to acquire the Christian faith) We merely ask not to have our faith insulted by classroom philosophy since that is not faith or morals). Since he doesn't understand it the best thing Nodehopper can do is not speak about Christianity .. but he can give all of his own belongings away as a living example of what he expects and then accept a life of servitude in the most humble of places he can find and in that way SHOW US that he really means it -- like St. Francis.)

[ajsc]

I hope nobody leaves the forum over this thread. Everyone here has something to add to the discussion.

I personally have the greatest respect for everyone here.

I guess we should be careful how we say things sometimes (me included).

I'm kind of a conservative guy, but "all" of my friends are liberal's. We're used to ribbing each other, & no one gets hurt.

Maybe this is not the place for that!!

I hope no one leaves the forum!!

[fortyearspickn]

I've observed, over many years communicating in many ways - that there are two kinds of people. Those who write/talk without putting much thought into it, and those who don't. Unfortunately, those who put their mouth in gear before their brain - are rarely aware of their failing. So, to criticize someone based on something specific - in effect, to point out the illogical or unfairness of their position, is fine. But, to start attaching labels - 'christian', 'liberal', 'Fox News Watcher', etc. cheapens you and weakens your argument. Some of us, after a long day, might post a response here that is not up to someone elses standards in terms of diversity, political correctness, or self effacing christianity - but there's no sense getting your skivvies in a wad over it. You'll be the only one squirming. jim

[Gitfidl]

Hey Mr. Holier-Than-Thou - I also earned my degree though the GI Bill. I spent 21 years in military service to my country and retired from same. And I can tell you that every one of the personality traits that you've attached to yourself in your post, I also identify myself with. However, I resent the political implications that you're tossing around. And I resent that because of your own personal political beliefs, you somehow consider yourself closer to God than others. But most of all, I resent the fact that you complain about being insulted in one sentence, and then hurl insults of your own in the next. Some Gentleman.

 

Well this the Gibson forum that everyione has come to know. This is the membership that nobody wants to log on to -- your responses are predictable. I do not claim to be holier than anyone. I do not claim to be holy. I claim to be a sinner. I do claim not to be any worse than any of you and some of you never learned how to be a gentlemanb (and m ost of you do not care). I respect your service and under other circumstances I would have thanked you for it. But at the same time my service was much more difficult and demanding than yours (if all you did was to occupy a job slot for 21 years and retire -- a lifer).

 

I do not expect that you read anything before you blast off. I don't care if you do not like my Christian faith or my military service or my disaffection for communism and socialism. I do not care how you vote and I do not care who you listen to on the radio or why. I do not care an iota about you. I do not care what you like or what you do not like. As Americans we are FREE to not like each other and I do not like you.

 

I think I already said that several posts back and so now you have it again just in case you did not understand it before. So in addition to the many things I did not like about the Gibson forums BEFORE, your explicit anti-Christian statements only make you all that much more despicable. Religious bigots and intolerants claiming to be charitable gentlemen; hence frauds and hate monger too.

[rscott4079]

I do not expect that you read anything before you blast off. I don't care if you do not like my Christian faith or my military service or my disaffection for communism and socialism. I do not care how you vote and I do not care who you listen to on the radio or why. I do not care an iota about you. I do not care what you like or what you do not like. As Americans we are FREE to not like each other and I do not like you.

 

And I feel sorry for you. It must be a sad and frightening world you live in.

[mwd]

I hope nobody leaves the forum over this thread. Everyone here has something to add to the discussion.

I personally have the greatest respect for everyone here.

I guess we should be careful how we say things sometimes (me included).

I'm kind of a conservative guy' date=' but "all" of my friends are liberal's. We're used to ribbing each other, & no one gets hurt.

Maybe this is not the place for that!!

I hope no one leaves the forum!![/quote']

 

 

Sir: You seem sane. Maybe you can tell me, is this REALLY the Gibson guitar Forum????? Today was my first day on the forum. I joined in hopes of getting advice from people I thought I'd respect about whether to get a 2007 Hummingbird True Vintage I've been looking at or a J45 for my birthday. I can't even find my original thread question about the guitars that I posted but I've been following THIS thinking somebody would see reason soon and make up. What an eye opener. This whole thing got started because of somebody reading LOTS into someone else's post on a DIFFERENT FORUM about who they'd want the"dream builder for their "dream guitar" to be. (Apparently, it is hypocritical for somebody who chose the username "Praise Music" or "Worship Guitar" or whatever in the world it was to daydream about having a $7,000 guitar built by some luthier who is, apparently, also Christian and Jesus wouldn't want an expensive guitar.) Now people are reading things into other people's posts about the first post. What in the world???? "Rich, Christian, Holier Than Thou...blah blah..." This is horrible. It makes me feel sort of queasy and I'm thinking twice about wanting advice from this forum. I can't believe Gibson would want this kind of bashing taking place under their banner. Here I thought this was a place where Gibson lovers go to talk to other Gibson lovers about Gibson guitars. Boy, was I wrong. I don't even know if I want one of the guitars anymore --- they'll remind me of THIS mess.

[mooboo]

Is it just me or should everyone just chill out and go play some music? Christian or not...

[ajsc]

Hey MWD, you weren't wrong!! This is one of those threads that has gotten completely out of control.

I think mooboo is right. Lets get back to Gibson's.

[rscott4079]

Hey MWD' date=' you weren't wrong!! This is one of those threads that has gotten completely out of control.

I think mooboo is right. Lets get back to Gibson's.[/quote']

 

My apologies to the members of the forum.

[nodehopper]

 

 

I agree. It is entertaining to discuss "philosophical paradigms" in a written forum on the internet. If the conversation came up in person I would differ the point quickly and be polite.

 

 

The forum rules over there state to avoid religious conversations.......

[geelinus]

Why bring politics into it? Are you hoping someone will counter with Glenn Beck or Sean Hannity and then we can get a nice flamewar going?

 

Think before you post.

 

Three quick (and final) comments:

 

I didn't "bring politics into it." The original post did - as well as mentioning religion.

 

Mentioning Olbermann is being political but somehow mentioning Limbaugh is not? Sure thing.

 

I'm all in favor of thinking (and reading the thread) before posting

[DAS44]

Is it just me or should everyone just chill out and go play some music? Christian or not...

perfect!

[Yggdrasil]

(snip) is this REALLY the Gibson guitar Forum????? Today was my first day on the forum. I joined in hopes of getting advice from people I thought I'd respect about whether to get a 2007 Hummingbird True Vintage I've been looking at or a J45 for my birthday. I can't even find my original thread question about the guitars that I posted but I've been following THIS thinking somebody would see reason soon and make up. (snip)Here I thought this was a place where Gibson lovers go to talk to other Gibson lovers about Gibson guitars. Boy' date=' was I wrong. I don't even know if I want one of the guitars anymore --- they'll remind me of THIS mess. [/color']

 

mwd-

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

Just a hint pointing to the obvious - when you log onto the forum, there are 15 topics, all clickable, available for reading.

At the bottom of the page there are page numbers for subsequent pages, each with 15 topics.

There is a search function, the usefulness of which is diminished since a forum crash recently, which wiped out years worth of posts that have not been restored (yet??).

 

Anyway, once I identify a thread that is of no interest to me, whether it's fossilized walrus pins or a non-guitar personal rant, I just don't revisit that thread.

 

The Gibson forum is full of great info and almost no belittling of newbie questions. You will find what you seek here.

As this thread demonstrates, you'll also find a lot more (or less,depending on your perspective :-).

 

However, I would not want this sort of thread to be shut down. I like the anarchy & blunt opinionism exhibited here, even though the content of this thread does not speak to me. I don't find that this category of thread takes over the overall forum - it is confined in its own little space.

 

I visit UMGF,AGF and a couple of others on a daily basis. I wouldn't want the heavy-handed "sheriff-in-town" moderator approach of UMGF here, nor do we need another iteration of the polite kind of milque-toasty tenor of the AGF (not that there's anything wrong with that :-).

 

It may seem a little crazy, but to my mind the wild tangents that occur - & are allowed - on this forum somehow reflect the anarchic & careening musical trajectory that Gibson guitars have been a part of for the past many decades.

 

To reiterate: if a thread is of no interest to you, just don't click on it.

 

And once again, welcome.