So I bought a LP copy - don't worry, there's a happy ending...

[bullet22]

Ok guys...... So you're not gonna like me for this but in the end you'll maybe understand my reasons.

 

I own a real nice LP Std - which I love.... It's beautiful. I've owned it nearly 2 years now from new - and it is still ‘as-new’. Not even a hint of buckle rash on her.

 

BUT - our rehearsal and gigging schedule is (hopefully) about to ramp up considerably soon, and that 1st hurtful 'ding' was looking more and more likely....

 

.....so, I decided to buy a 'hitter' and sell the Gibson (can always pick up another one later, right..?) because I can’t really afford/justify keeping 2 guitars.

 

So - having heard lots of very good things about Tokai copies (not fakes, but copies) - I ordered the LS95F, with the Violin Matte (Flamed) Finish. I paid £750 - less than half what the Gibson cost me. The LS95 is roughly comparable to the LP Std (other than the cap has a sycamore veneer on it and the frets aren't bound etc). The LS150 has a pretty much equal spec to the '58 VOS. They're the Japanese copies - not the Chinese ones (which are supposed to be junk...)

 

Ok - here's what I found:

 

Build: The Japanese quality was excellent. I mean it. Every inch of the guitar was unfaultable. The electrics seemed solid enough with braided wires. No earthing plate - but all good. The routing was just fine - and the guitar had a very solid feel to it. The body was mahogany and the top maple, which wasn't great - the veneer really did look like veneer, and because it was matte (and not sat beneath a layer of lacquer) the top really did appear to be 'on top' - even of the binding. You couldn't 'lose yourself' staring into the deep finish of a real flame, but for a hitter it seemed very solid. I'm told all the Japanese Tokai's have a nitro finish - this seemed to be, but can't be sure due to the matte finishing. There was no weight relief (not even cheese holed) and the guitar felt well balanced. Generally very, very good for half the price of a Gibson Standard.

 

Sound: This is where it was let down. It comes loaded with Tokai's MKII humbuckers. They were just.......ok. Did it sing..? No. Not at all. You're looking at changing out the pup's straight away - don't get me wrong, they were bright enough, but a little one the rattly side of bright, with no growl whatsoever. Kinda reminded me of the SD Alnico II's, but with less of a woody sound. Just ok, but not special.

 

Playability: Another let down. The guitar was (supposedly) professionally set up before dispatch to me - but there was still something..... missing. The frets didn't seem quite as large as the Gibson, and whilst the rosewood fretboard was very nicely finished and the neck shape comfortable, there was just something..... missing. There's that word again. 'Missing'. Perhaps it was the matte finish on the neck, but I just felt somehow 'limited' in my playing.

 

Looks: Nice. Pretty. On stage it would just look like a generic Les Paul shaped guitar. I didn't like the finish - although the gloss ones online look better. Some copies don't quite have the Les Paul shape replicated very well, but Tokai have nailed it with this one. Did it catch my eye like a Gibson 'burst? Nope. BUT, did it look like a copy? Nope.

 

So that's my overall experience. The conclusion is that without (I suspect) paying much more - maybe for the LS150 or even LS250 (£3,000!) - you aren't gonna get that trade mark Gibson growl and rock solid playability. If at all.

 

Left: Gibson. Right: Tokia LS95F

 

A Gibson costs twice as much..... Are they twice as good....? Well, it's hard to say because the Gibson just has that magical 'something' that you can just connect with. You hear it, and feel it, and experience it - there's just something very very special about the Gibson - and I don't think you can really put a value on that.

 

Blindfolded - I would hear the and feel the difference between the 2 a mile away.

 

So....... I sent the Tokai back - the dealer had said it was comparable to a Gibson in every way, and it simply fell short. If you're willing to spend money and time changing pups, and electrics - and re-dialling your amp, then maybe something like a Tokai would be cool as that 'road horse' - but that personal connection wasn't there, which is the reason I play guitar at all.

 

It was good, but not great. Nowhere near special. It didn’t feel like any love had gone into building it – on paper it seems good, but there was nothing ‘there’.

 

So I got a used LP Std which already has a couple of light scratches and dings on it, for £1000. So I'll be £250 out of pocket for a little while - but I'll be playing a genuine Gibson forever.

 

So a happy ending for Gibson then - I'm not gonna say "I leaned my lesson" - I actually feel I approached it with an open mind (why would I doubt Japanese QC etc..?) - and whilst I would hate to sound like a fan boy - so far, in my experience - no-one makes a better rock n' roll guitar than the good people at Nashville. The difference is, I actually know that now, for sure.

 

Keep your Gibson, build a shrine to it - sometimes only the real deal is good enough.

 

Hopefully this happy ending may dissipate the flaming that is no doubt coming my way now.....?

 

[LPguitarman]

Glad you ended up with a Gibson. Why didn't you go for an Epiphone LP instead of a copy? I'm not big on Epi's but if I needed a second guitar for a back-up to my Gibby, that's where I'd go.

[bullet22]

Glad you ended up with a Gibson. Why didn't you go for an Epiphone LP instead of a copy? I'm not big on Epi's but if I needed a second guitar for a back-up to my Gibby' date=' that's where I'd go.[/quote']

 

I'd done a lot of research and quite a few people said the mid-high range Tokai's were around the same quality of the Gibson LP Std.

 

I've never heard anyone say that about an Epi.

 

I've nothing against the Epi's - the Japanese Tokai's just seemed a smarter buy.

[FennRx]

japanese copies like Burny ans Tokai are probably on par or better than the Gibson USA. nice.

[bullet22]

japanese copies like Burny ans Tokai are probably on par or better than the Gibson USA. nice.

 

People say that' date=' sure - but the one I got was nowhere, [i']nowhere[/i] near as good as a Gibson.

 

Have you owned a Tokai...?

 

It was ok - just too much of a trade-down to be a keeper.

 

No competition.

 

I wanted it to be good - but it wasn't.

[DeVeeWee]

People say that' date=' sure - but the one I got was nowhere, [i']nowhere[/i] near as good as a Gibson.

 

Have you owned a Tokai...?

 

It was ok - just too much of a trade-down to be a keeper.

 

No competition.

 

I wanted it to be good - but it wasn't.

 

 

I see you have a '07 LP Vintage Sunburst, that means there are 2 people in the entire world that own a vintage sunburst. Congratulations!!! Here's mine:

 

[BigKahune]

bullet22 - thanks for taking the time to post that well thoughout review.

 

I've owned a few Epis (and currently have an Epi LP in my stable) and would say, in general, they play fine, but the electronics (pups especially) are a step or two down from what you find in Gibsons.

 

Glad you found something to work with . . . and it's a Gibson. ;)

[FennRx]

People say that' date=' sure - but the one I got was nowhere, [i']nowhere[/i] near as good as a Gibson.

 

Have you owned a Tokai...?

 

It was ok - just too much of a trade-down to be a keeper.

 

No competition.

 

I wanted it to be good - but it wasn't.

 

 

everyone puts out a lemon, but gibson puts out lots of them. seems they have been doing that for decades.

 

but it appears you have an exception gibson, so rock on! when gibson gets it right, they are fantastic. congrats.

[bullet22]

everyone puts out a lemon' date=' but gibson puts out lots of them. seems they have been doing that for decades. [/quote']

 

The Tokai wasn't a lemon, like I said - the QC was excellent. It just wasn't a guitar that wanted to be played. It was a replication - a cost effective reproduction, with something missing - not missing in materials or build quality - just in sound and playability. If anything, the Japanese QC being so good makes me think ALL Tokai's (at least at this price range) would be the same.

 

I've owned a 1995 Studio which was excellent.

I own a 1999 Standard which is excellent.

I owned a 2005 Classic which was excellent

I own a 2007 Standard which is excellent.

 

2 of those guitars were bought from ebay without having seeing them.

 

So where are these decades of Gibson lemons.....?

 

;)

[bullet22]

 

I've owned a 1995 Studio which was excellent.

I own a 1999 Standard which is excellent.

I owned a 2005 Classic which was excellent

I own a 2007 Standard which is excellent.

 

2 of those guitars were bought from ebay without having seeing them.

 

So where are these decades of Gibson lemons.....?

 

I've quoted myself to just make a point here. That's 4 USA Gibson Les Pauls - 2 of them 'blind dates' and other than the ceramic pups on the Classic' date=' I cannot think of a single let down with any of them. No faults, no gripes, [i']they played and played and played and played[/i] - they stayed in tune, cleaned up great - and aged well. They were work-horses, go-to guitars in every sense.

 

Sorry to take a hard line here - but saying I have an exception and actually congratulating me - because I actually ended with with.... heaven forbid..... a good USA Gibson, well that's just not a reasonable statement.

 

It's trolling.

 

Peace.

[Riffster]

Tokai made a reputation of making great guitars in the 70's and 80's even better than the real thing people said, but they were comparing these guitars with the Norlin era Gibsons at the time not the current Gibsons. Sure there are good Norlins but we all know the craftsmanship suffered.

 

To me there is a lot of hype about Tokai and Greco copies that comes from 30 years ago, the ones I have seen in person fall flat when compared to a current Gibson. Just my opinion.

[bullet22]

Tokai made a reputation of making great guitars in the 70's and 80's even better than the real thing people said' date=' but they were comparing these guitars with the Norlin era Gibsons at the time not the current Gibsons. Sure there are good Norlins but we all know the craftsmanship suffered.

 

To me there is a lot of hype about Tokai and Greco copies that comes from 30 years ago, the ones I have seen in person fall flat when compared to a current Gibson. Just my opinion.

 

[/quote']

 

+1.

 

From a guy that put one through its paces last week.

[cwness]

The Tokai wasn't a lemon' date=' like I said - the QC was excellent. It just wasn't a guitar that wanted to be played. It was a replication - a cost effective reproduction, with something missing - not missing in materials or build quality - just in sound and playability. If anything, the Japanese QC being so good makes me think ALL Tokai's (at least at this price range) would be the same.

 

I've owned a 1995 Studio which was excellent.

I own a 1999 Standard which is excellent.

I owned a 2005 Classic which was excellent

I own a 2007 Standard which is excellent.

 

2 of those guitars were bought from ebay without having seeing them.

 

So where are these decades of Gibson lemons.....?

 

:- [/quote']

 

I have to agree with FennRx on this one. You just got lucky. I can't count

the number of Standards I went through to find a good one. It's not just the

LP's either I had to go through the same thing to find a good SG Standard.

I was just in trying out the new Standards to see if I like the new neck I must

have played 10 of them at different stores until I found one that I would buy.

The reissues are the same way just not as bad. There is one answer that maybe

were just a little more fussy about what is a good guitar. This is not the case with

PRS guitars they all come out pretty much perfect the way a guitar should be built.

 

CW

[bullet22]

You just got lucky. I can't count

the number of Standards I went through to find a good one.

CW

 

 

YHGTBFKM!

[Riffster]

There is a difference between a good guitar and a guitar that you personally prefer. I have a beater Squier 51, I bought it at GC, there were 5 of them and this one felt the best to me, the guitar had been tested so much that the fingerboard was dirty and nobody had bought it, this is the guitar I chose and to this day I like it a lot for what it is, I have played others and still prefer mine.

 

Big purchases get scrutinized for sure and they should be.

 

When I am not buying a guitar 90% of them are great, when I am buying a guitar 10% are great.

 

Saying that having a good Les Paul Standard or SG Standard is a 1 in 10 or 20 shot is blatantly absurd I don't care who makes the comment.

[cwness]

 

Big purchases get scrutinized for sure and they should be.

 

When I am not buying a guitar 90% of them are great' date=' when I am buying a guitar 10% are great.

 

Saying that having a good Les Paul Standard or SG Standard is a 1 in 10 or 20 shot is blatantly absurd I don't care who makes the comment.

 

[/quote']

 

Well I hate to point this out but you just said that. We are talking about buying and 10% is 1 in 10.

I'll agree with your statement if you talking about PRS guitar though.

 

CW

[Riffster]

I am sure we agree, it is your wording that comes across as a bit confusing.

 

Finding a "good one" is not the same as "selecting the guitar you prefer out of 10".

 

Picking 1 out of 10 guitars when you are buying does not mean the other 9 were inferior or "bad ones". There is a guy out there that tested the guitar you bought and he did not like it. Know what I mean?

[cwness]

Stiffhand let me clarify for you. I have been playing now for 43 years and

I know exactly what I want in a guitar. I only buy used for a couple of reasons.

I don't by new cars for this reason also. The hit you take once you walk out the

door or off the lot. 2ndly there are a lot of guitars out there that look like new

from people that don't play a lot. That said the guitar has to have good tone and

you now how that goes they can be cut from the same piece of wood and one sounds

good the other not so good. Playability I can tell right away if I like it or not. Lastly

condition of the guitar. If I don't like just one of the 3 I don't buy. Now that said

I didn't have to try a bunch of PRS's like I did the Gibson's. The fit and finish and

playability on the PRS's is very consistent. Unlike the Gibson's and that's why people that

ask advice on which one to buy they are told one this forum to go try them out.

By the way Gibson makes a good guitar and if someone asked me that's what I would

tell them. I would add they just have to play a bunch to find one. Hey been looking for

and Boogie Express (just the head) on CL the one I tried at guitar center was sweet.

Ya I think were pretty much on the same page. If your spending that kind of money

you better make sure your getting something you like.

 

Take Care

 

CW

[Riffster]

I hear you man. I just reacted in the same way as Bullet22 because of the choice of words. I seriously don't think Gibbys are that bad, PRS don't do much for me. I either play a Gibson or a Fender.

 

In my experience it took me about one year to figure out what a good guitar is, I know immediately after playing a guitar if I would keep it or not. I don't think experience matters if you know what you are doing.

 

Same approach here I just bought a 2008 BMW 328i, 13K miles, 3 more years of warranty/maintenance included for a lot less money than a new one. It is my favorite color inside and out and has all the options I wanted. Paid cash.

 

I am also in the market for a used R8, they sell for crazy low prices used and I still have to play an R8 I did not like.

 

The Mesa head will serve you well, I happened to plug mine with a new ABY switch I got and one of my other tube amps sounds like *** when you can A/B with the Mesa with a push of a switch, I am telling you the Express series are fantastic amps.

 

The Mesa amp I did ordered new and waited for a few weeks becuase it was my 40th birthday gift and wanted a specific head cab combination.

[Shnate McDuanus]

I understand what Stiffhand's talking about here. There's a difference between a good guitar and a guitar that you (vague pronoun) want to buy--in theory, any guitar has the potential to be good, but ultimately the one you take home and keep is the one that's good enough for you.

 

That being said, I also have to agree that PRS has never done anything for me. On the other hand, I've played tons of guitars without the intention of buying (never a Tokai, although I was briefly curious about them,) and overall actually been most impressed by three brands: Gibson (never played a Gibson that I thought was flat-out bad simply on picking it up,) Guild (they don't do electrics anymore since being purchased by Fender, but the used Guild electrics I've played have all been incredibly well-crafted guitars, and with as much soul as any ol' Gibson,) and Ampeg (that lucite guitar felt better than I thought it would--damn!), and I've found it hard to be moved by others.

 

I've tried a few Epiphones, and they were just OK.I've played a few Fenders, which were great, but had a different scale-length, so they were all hard sells for me. I've tried a few Squiers, one which struck me as being really good, and the others as seeming like complete POS guitars--and again, the scale-length thing. Never tried a Dean, but I'm curious about the Dean Cadillac. I've tried a few Ibanez guitars, and I've been fairly impressed by the way they played, but not with how they sounded--and with B.C. Rich, it was just the opposite. Tried a cheap, cheap, cheap Dean resonator guitar, which was one of the coolest things I've ever played--had a great sound and a great feel, but I didn't want to buy another guitar at the time. Tried a very well-priced Epiphone twelve-string which was very cool, and an Ovation twelve-string which was ridiculously awkward. These have been my playing without purchasing experiences.

 

I have three guitars--the SG Special Faded, which I picked out from a local store's stock and had the cost split with the folks, a Guild classical guitar, which my mom got years ago and never learned to play, and an Epiphone PR5-E which was given to me by a family friend who decided he didn't like the damn thing enough to keep it. Of the three, two of them are really great guitars (the Gibson and the Guild,) and one of them is an OK guitar (the Epiphone.) In my experience, I understand, more or less, what Bullet22 is talking about. There's something very special about the Gibson design principles, and something great about the way they're implemented by Gibson itself.

[bullet22]

The fact is, you look a right gaylord playing a PRS.

 

Case closed.

[LPC666]

The fact is' date=' you look a right gaylord playing a PRS.

 

Case closed.

 

[/quote']

 

 

Hahah +1