Did they discontinue True Vintage models?

[MapleManiac]

No one seems to have them in stock anymore.

[KL]

I don't know. Lets hope not.

[MapleManiac]

I don't know. Lets hope not.

 

Yeah I've been debating whether to get a J45 or Southern Jumbo TV but I've held off because I can't try one in person and I'm a bit leery of V shaped necks as I hate Martins with them.

[KL]

Well I don't mind the V necks too much at all. Whether to get a J-45 or an SJ is a personal choice. Both are great guitars. I would be happy with either, but I do have two J-45's and they are both very different sounding. It's always difficult when you can't try a guitar out in person, especially an acoustic guitar. It might be a good investment to go on a road trip somewhere and try some guitars out. Just to throw a spanner in the works if these are the sort of acoustics you like try to check out the Santa Cruz Southern Jumbo and Vintage Southerners (the only difference between those two is the scale length of the neck). They are very much modeled on the J-45 and I was astounded at the one I recently played. It was like playing a vintage J-45 and beautifully balanced in tone, and loud, and it was brand new.

[eds111]

I hope not as well.

 

I do believe the SJ TV was discontinued for 2009, but I've seen them on Musician's Friend very recently.

 

The only TV I have played was a J45TV; the neck seemed the same as the J45 Modern Classic the store also had. It was not anything like a Martin mod V neck like is on my 00028ec.

 

Can anyone else confirm the neck profile is not really V shaped?

 

For years the Gibson web site said the standard J45 had a V shaped neck, every one I ever played had the same awesome neck profile that is on my BK and H-bird. I could never understand why the called it a V.

[modoc_333]

i don't think so. we have a J45TV in the shop right now and it just came in a couple of weeks ago. i have heard nothing of them being discontinued. maybe dealers are just opting to buy standard models b/c lower prices mean a quicker sale.

[SuperG]

I've played a couple new TVs in shops and the necks were no different than the round profile ones on my J-185 and SJ (both 2002). For that matter, the feel was the same as the necks on the new J-45 MCs and Hummingbirds also in the store.

 

Based on my experience, Gibson neck profiles don't always correlate with what is spec'd on their web site, and v-necks are pretty rare. If in doubt just ask the seller to confirm one way or the other.

[ChrisA83]

Mine isn't a V neck either - pretty much the same as my SWD

[MapleManiac]

You guys aren't making it easy for me to resist the urge.

 

Next question......does the Adirondack top make it sound noticeably clearer than the standard J45--which sometimes seem to everything going for them except clarity.

[Jack6849]

Adirondack "Red" Spruce, i.e. Picea rubens, is, in my opinion, one of the major keys to the achieving a true "vintage" tone. The "True Vintage" Gibson models that I have had an opportunity to audition are among the best sounding guitars I've ever heard. My 2010 SJ-200 "True Vintage" is the best sounding Gibson I've ever played, and I can't believe the company would even consider dropping the "True Vintage" Series. As long as quality Adirondack Spruce is available, it will maintain a place in the world of great acoustic guitars. Many of the best Martins built today, from their "Authentic Series" guitars, and their "Marquis Series" instruments, to their Custom Shop Limited Editions, use Adirondack. Smaller luthiers like Collings, Goodall, and Santa Cruz charge extra for it. If you get a chance, play an Adirondack-topped guitar, and you'll see why Gibson should never drop its use. It is a truly unique resource, and yes, the Adirondack J-45 "True Vintage" guitar has the extra clarity you mention. "True Vintage" Gibsons yield a classic sound that is timeless and inspirational. I'm so glad that such Gibsons are available to everyone who can afford one. All guitars should sound as good. Few do.

 

Jack6849

[KL]

Smaller luthiers like Collings' date=' Goodall, and Santa Cruz charge extra for it.

Jack6849 [/quote']

 

I can't disagree with your comments on Adirondack spruce. But here's a story about one of my guitars.

 

When I had my C10 SB made by Collings I spoke to them at length about whether to have a Sitka top or an Adirondack top. They advised me that on a guitar of that size that Sitka would be best. I really spent a lot of time thinking about it and took their advice in the end. You don't see too many C10's with Adirondack tops but there are a few. One of the reasons they quoted was that they felt Adirondack was a little too stiff for a small bodied guitar. However, there are many small bodied vintage guitars with Adirondack tops that sound great so I still don't fully understand this. My 3 mandolins all have Adirondack tops and of course they are lots smaller. But maybe things are different for mandolins.

 

Anyway my C10 SB sounds lush, so I'm not complaining!

[Jack6849]

KL,

 

I have a 1997 Collings OM1 and it has a Sitka Spruce top. It's very a wide-grained example, and it does sound fantastic. In addition to smaller-bodied acoustics, I know some people prefer Sitka also for Mahogany guitars, and this OM1 is a classic example of that combination.

 

I've just been struck recently by how different an Adirondack top can make a guitar sound. The Gibson "True Vintage" models I've played lately, for me at least, really take the "Gibson sound" back to that of the classic pre-War guitars that so many players loved. I really didn't think Gibson could ever get back to that standard, but these guitars have changed my mind, and made me a believer. As a life-long Gibson player, I'm proud of their current product. Makes it easy to understand why the Gibson name has been respected for so long by musicians...

 

I guess I'll get my SJ 200 "True Vintage" out right now and play it,

 

(doesn't that sound like a good time?...)

 

Jack6849

[larryp58]

You guys aren't making it easy for me to resist the urge.

 

Next question......does the Adirondack top make it sound noticeably clearer than the standard J45--which sometimes seem to everything going for them except clarity.

 

The Adi top has a clearer "bite" to it as opposed to the Sitka top. The J-45's come with the Adi top, but my Southern Jumbo TV has the AAA Sitka top. I agree that the reviews, from any source, would keep Gibson from discontinueing this line of guitars. A little extra cash for them, but the added quality and tone more than make up for it.

[onewilyfool]

I think RAR told me that they have closed down the custom shop during these trying times. I think he can clear up some of this with his knowledge.....

[jgwoods]

Gibson used whatever wood was nearby from what I understand, and back in Kalamazoo in the old days that wasn't Adirondack, it was sitka more likely. I am no Gibson historian so correct m e if I am wrong, but most of the pre-war Gibson guitars did not have Adirondack tops.

I have an L-OO with an Adirondack top- it is very punchy, pretty loud, and clearly what I think of as that Adirondack sound. Frankly i like sitka better. It is more versatile, sounds better more often than not. Adi is good for certain applications but to my ear it belongs on instruments to be played in a group setting where cutting through is the most important thing and tone is second.

[TM]

Pre-war Gibson tops were adirondack..some multi piece tops are seen. During the war there is a mix of adirondack and sitka,,again some multi piece adirondack tops. Post war there are some said to be adirondack but there is disagreement about this. Post-war guitars are considered to be sitka.

 

Terry

[jgwoods]

http://home.provide.net/~cfh/gibson6.html#j45

The vintage Gibson site here doesn't specify Adirondack tops, just says "solid spruce"

I'm going to remain a doubter on this one- I don't think they had Adi tops.

 

I'm going to correct myself after more research on the very site I listed here- here is some info re the pre war J-45s

"9xx FONs to 2xxx FONs red spruce tops - often lightly built, usually lighter than the 7xxxH examples and sound warmer but not as powerful with beautiful harmonics. These guitars differ the most since the tops differ in thickness and quality. The neck material and neck reinforcement has an impact as well. "

[ChrisA83]

...but the the J-45TV still sounds amaaaazing! Try and get your hands on one if you can MapleManiac

[Xylophile]

Gibson used whatever wood was nearby from what I understand, and back in Kalamazoo in the old days that wasn't Adirondack, it was sitka more likely. I am no Gibson historian so correct m e if I am wrong, but most of the pre-war Gibson guitars did not have Adirondack tops.

 

 

The Adirondacks were a lot more nearby than Alaska or the west coast for that matter. Not that all red spruce -or "Adirondack spruce" even- is from the Adirondack mountains, mind.

Gibson did use red spruce in the old days, at best with some white spruce mixed in. If at all. In any case, eastern spruce.

 

 

 

 

X

[Guth]

For the most part, there are no absolutes when it comes to acoustic guitars, only generalities. My guess is that if you were set in a room with with 20 J-45 TVs, 10 of which were topped with red spruce and the other 10 topped with sitka, you more than likely find that overall you prefer one topwood (soundboard) over the other, but you might also find your favorite example has the topwood from the species you tended to not prefer as much overall. There are plenty of sitka topped guitars that exhibit great clarity, and lots of examples of adirondack topped guitars that sound rather muddy.

 

Short story long:

 

There are so many variables in play from one guitar to another: tops made from different individual trees, the thickness of the top (the thickness doesn't just vary from one top to the next, but also throughout a single top - generally thinner towards the edges and it varies from the bass side to the treble side, front to back, etc.); the actual stiffness/density of the wood selected for each guitar (the stiffness can vary from one soundboard to the next taken from the same tree); the carving of the braces; the overall lightness of the build; etc.. Some manufacturers pay close attention to this kind of stuff. I don't know if Gibson keeps tabs on this sort of thing, but as an example, in the past if you purchased a Collings guitar, they could provide you with information about such things as the top thickness of your guitar as they kept very detailed records of each instrument they built.

 

Each manufacturer has its own methods when it comes to building the instruments, and this has an impact on the overall sound (the "Gibson tone" vs the "Martin tone" vs the "Taylor tone", etc.). The larger the operation, the harder it becomes to maintain any kind of "consistency of tone" from one guitar to the next, even of the same model. My understanding is that Gibson still performs many steps by hand (as opposed to a CNC-based, automated operation) which I really appreciate, but that in turn requires more of the builders. I can't tell you if they are tap-testing each top as they plane the soundboard, nor if they take into account the stiffness of each soundboard before they start planing it down with the back/sides already identified like the individual luthiers or smaller shops do. (Some of the folks on this forum have toured the Bozeman facility and might be able to share more about Gibson's build operation.) These are just some of the things that effect the way a guitar sounds when all is said and done. As a result, watching acoustic guitars being built can be a truly fascinating experience. When you stop to think about all that goes into the making of the guitars, its not hard to imagine that each one has a soul of its own. They are organic creations. It all comes down to what the luthier or group of individuals are able to do with the wood and other materials they have to work with.

 

I love my J-45 TV. All in all, it has the tone I was searching for, there are very few things that I would want to change about it (I'd love it if it had a slightly wider nut and would prefer the pickguard not cover the rosette like on the real "vintage" J-45s), but tone is my top priority and this guitar nails it (for me). Before I found the TV that I purchased, I was able to try others. They certainly didn't all sound the same. I'm glad that I tried a few different ones before buying. Good luck with your search. As I've said in the past, if at all possible, you've simply got to play the guitars and trust your own ears.

 

All the best,

Guth

[Swicket]

Here is another vote for good old Sitka in an adi-crazed world. Sitka seems warmer and bigger to me. It is nice that Gibsons with both tops are available!

[Paul E]

Guth , you bring about a lot of good points. What I wonder is how the dry the wood for the guitars. Is it kiln dryed or air dryed. Years ago I worked for a gun stocker where we would cut down the trees and slab them up in large boards , wax the end grains, and let them air dry for up to 6 years ( when a certain percentage of moister was reached).Thie air drying process is what I understand that guitar makers in th 20's to 40's use to do. I'm sure this can have a great sound difference from one process to the other.

[Guth]

oldguy,

 

Good question. (Obviously there are many more variables than the few I've pointed out.)

 

In the end, all of the various species of spruce used by different builders are capable of contributing to a great sounding guitar. I've owned guitars with adirondack, engelmann and sitka soundboards and have enjoyed them all. While each exhibits certain tonal characteristics more often than not, there are always exceptions and the results at times can be surprising. I wouldn't reject any of them if I liked the way the guitar sounded and played.

 

Guth

[Jack6849]

I agree that having more choice is always ideal. Like Guth, I've had some great guitars with Engelmann, Sitka, and Adirondack. Speaking of that, Guth, you've probably mentioned this somewhere, but I couldn't find it.... which Spruce is your J-45 TV?

 

While I also agree that it is scary to think about buying an acoustic guitar without hearing it first, that's exactly what I recently did when I "special ordered" a J-200 Jr. with an Adirondack top from Bozeman. I was willing to take that risk because of the recent "True Vintage" Gibsons I've had the chance to play. Those guitars, (and my SJ-200 "True Vintage") sounded fantastic, and gave me enough confidence to proceed with a special order. Now I wait in anxious anticipation....

 

One thing I've wondered about is why Adirondack Spruce is now offered as an option, by Gibson, Martin and others, when it didn't seem to be readily available for so long.

 

This has been an informative, interesting forum topic for me. Thanks to all.

 

Jack6849

[larryp58]

 

One thing I've wondered about is why Adirondack Spruce is now offered as an option' date=' by Gibson, Martin and others, when it didn't seem to be readily available for so long.

[/quote']

 

 

Very good question! Has Sitka been used up or what?!!!