Triads

[mcmurray]

Guys, just wondering what the general consensus is regarding triads. I'm going to start learning major, minor, and diminished triads, my aim is to learn all inversions, and know where all of them are within a particular key.

 

Some questions;

 

How important are triads in your playing?

 

What do you use them for?

 

Any tips on how to internalize them i.e. suggested exercises?

 

My rhythm playing is seriously lacking, as is my skills for transcribing harmonies. I think that by learning these and hearing how they sound together it would be a good starting point for more serious rhythm guitar work.

[mcmurray]

*crickets*

[saturn]

don't forget augmented...

 

I think it's very important to learn all the inversions on the different string groups. Ex. strings 6,5,4 - 5,4,3 and 3,2,1

[mcmurray]

Yep I will tackle augmented at some stage. The reason I'm leaving it out at first is because it's not found in strictly natural minor or major tonalities.

 

I'll work on those string groups, cheers.

[Look! Im guitarest!]

don't forget augmented...:-

 

 

And altered (b3' date=' #5). Know what sounds nasty? #3, b5. That minor second interval between those two notes is not pretty.

 

What's important to memorize triads and understand how to construct chords is to memorize the intervals. I'll list them by number of semitones above the root note:

 

1 - minor Second

2 - Major Second

3 - minor Third

4 - Major Third

5 - Perfect Fourth

6 - Tritone

7 - Perfect Fifth

8 - minor Sixth

9 - Major Sixth

10 - minor Seventh

11 - Major Seventh

12 - Octave

 

A major chord has a Root, Major Third, and Perfect Fifth. So what you do is Take the root, count up four semitones (or just go up 4 frets to hear the note) to find the Major third, and then go 7 semitones from the root to find the Perfect Fifth.

 

Minor Triad:

 

1, b3, 5

 

Diminished Triad:

 

1, b3, b5

 

Augmented Triad:

 

1, 3, #5

 

That's what you need to know, learning all the intervals really helps. As for inversions, simply construct the chord with a different note in the bass. They give you more voicing options and allow you to play more chords in the same position.

 

Yep I will tackle augmented at some stage. The reason I'm leaving it out at first is because it's not found in strictly natural minor or major tonalities.

 

I'll work on those string groups, cheers.

 

But with augmented chords, you can binge on a whole tone scale. Bucket loves them augmented chords and arpeggios.

[mcmurray]

Thanks Loaf!

 

And guitarest, I'm looking forward to it!

[milod]

Jocko...

 

Darnit...

 

You stole my line about the Chinese version of Triads...

 

Hmmmm.

 

m

[FirstMeasure]

It's one of those things that sounds really complicated and is very hard to explain without the help of teaching aids like charts or, better yet, a guitar, but once you "Get It" it's really kinda easy.

 

Anyway, none of it made a lot of sense to me until I started trying to find my way around a Keyboard, then suddenly "Triads", #3, b2nd, Augmented whatever's, all made perfect sense. Before that, I only played Trumpet and Fretted Stringed instruments. On the keyboard, there's visual reinforcement to back up what your learning.

 

The Third is Three notes up the scale from the root, the Fifth is Five notes up the scale from the root, when played in unison it makes a chord. That makes sense on a Keyboard because there are no redundant notes and they're all layed out in a row. On a guitar you have five or six of the same exact E's, that makes for a versatile instrument, but a ***** to learn theory on.

 

Also OT, knowing Triads and Inversions is Extremely Valuable when Jamming or playing with another guitar player. Always nice when you can find ways to fit into the mix while adding character and voice to the overall production.

[milod]

Okay...

 

(Jocko... Hey, I love puns - multilingual are especially fun, but... oui, probably shouldn't go there.)

 

Anyway, and all kidding aside... Hey, I did a bit of theory in college. I listen to somebody like Joe Pass and others who are learned in sorta more specialized chording concepts and I'm in awe.

 

But... Seriously, it doesn't fit what I hear, really. Yeah, I play some fancy chords, whatever. Ninths, augmenteds, underground miner sevenths (okay, I couldn't resist that one).

 

OTOH, I'm not all that creative and I can only play what I really hear if I'm playing me instead of attempting to copy somebody else. Duane sed something noting that I do a piece fingerstyle that Clapton did on an unplugged album. I'm glad I didn't hear that before I started playing the same piece in around '63 or '64 because back then I just did what I thought worked fingerstyle that I could do. Then I added a bit of "fancy" over the years. Clapton flatpicked and sounds wonderful. I just do my own thing and sound like ... me.

 

That means that 99 percent of the time it's a matter of messing off root chord shapes either at the nut or in variations of barre chords. You just see them on the neck. Or feel them or whatever. If I don't, I get out some chord charts and see if I can find an idea.

 

What I'm saying is that in ways, it depends on what you wanna do, and how you wanna do it. I personally don't think about triads other than Chinese gangsters. But then, I also don't particularly think in single-string melody lines, either. I thought single melody lines on trumpet, but deep down, I heard something more like stride piano.

 

Were I to have talent instead of just a work ethic, I'd likely delve more into the theory of this stuff. Frankly I've enough stuff to work on for the next 20 years with just upgrading the concept I already work with that would polish, improve and fill out what I already "do" in my head.

 

Just a thought.

[mcmurray]

Also OT' date=' knowing Triads and Inversions is Extremely Valuable when Jamming or playing with another guitar player. Always nice when you can find ways to fit into the mix while adding character and voice to the overall production.[/quote']

 

This is gold. Thanks FM.

[Mr. Robot]

Love Triads.

 

Since I have been learning them, I havent looked back.

 

They give you great ideas for improvising lead breaks - I used them a lot .

[mcmurray]

I was at a Paul Gilbert clinic a few years back and he showed us the secret behind a large part of Jimmy Page's playing, and it was nothing but lots of different triad inversions played one after the other and strummed quickly. He pretty much nailed Jimmy's sound just by doing this.

[FirstMeasure]

I was at a Paul Gilbert clinic a few years back and he showed us the secret behind a large part of Jimmy Page's playing' date=' and it was nothing but lots of different triad inversions played one after the other and strummed quickly. He pretty much nailed Jimmy's sound just by doing this.[/quote']

That's a darn good point. Jimmy hardly ever uses Power Chords, he usually does different Triads. Like "Song Remains The Same", the intro is a couple different Triad Shapes played up the neck.

 

"Communication Breakdown", the D-A-D are Triads. So many Knuckleheads play them as power chords, even in gigging bar bands.

 

 

BTW mcmurray, thanks for the compliment earlier .

[mcmurray]

I posted these questions in another forum too, here's one of the responses I've got from someone much more knowledgeable on this subject than me. Hopefully it helps some of you or at least gives you some ideas as well. Looks like I've got some serious studying ahead;

 

1) "How important are triads in your playing?"

 

Triads are the foundation of my musical knowledge. Everything (in my world) relates to or is derived from Triads. I hear and see them everywhere and I think of everything in terms of triads. I made the decision years ago to move away from thinking in terms of scales and only think in terms of chords. Once I started this, I realized that knowing every chord meant knowing every triad inside and out, anywhere on the neck in terms of voicing structure rather than just as shapes (you end up learning the shapes anyway, but for me the real learning was learning to think in terms of notes). One very interesting outcome was than I now find that I can see the notes of chords everywhere on the neck as I play. I don't think about it, I just do it.

 

As the most basic form of harmony triads - arps specifically define the connection between scales and chords in a chicken vs egg way. Most people learn scales first and then a few chords, but if you base you understanding on triads - you can do the whole think the other way - where everything is based on chords and then the scales make perfect sense (they are just arpeggios with the notes fitted in between the 3rds).

 

2) "What do you use them for?"

 

Every comp'ing part, every single note line, every solo is based on moving around / playing with the harmony. Triads are the heart and soul of that harmony so once you learn to think in terms of chords - all sorts of variations start to reveal themselves to the player. It would be easier for me to identify what I don't use triads for - and that's mindlessly running scale patterns. For everything else, triads are the foundation - the "physical laws of the musical universe" (if you will).

 

3) "Any tips on how to internalize them i.e. suggested exercises?"

 

I practice them constantly. In fact practicing music for me is working with triads - as 2-octave arpeggios (10 fingerings) as closed voicings / inversions (9+ fingerings) as open fingerings (15+ fingerings) as 4-note voicings on the inside and top strings (12+ voicings), etc, etc. Triads are a big thing to study with a tremendous number of variations so take you time and try to learn one aspect / voicing structure at a time in all keys (thinking in terms of notes helps). No single exercise will teach you everything you'll want to know about triads. You'll have to constantly come up with new exercises (it's pretty easy) and ways to test your triad knowledge.

 

I work with them around the cycle of 5ths / 4ths, diatonically around the cycle of 5ths / 4ths, diatonically stepwise (ascending / descending, diatonically in cycles of 3rds ascending / descending. You can start with a 2-octave triad arpeggios and explore it's pentatonic extensions to see how the pentatonic fingerings patterns are derived from triads or go further still to see how the 7-note scale patterns are built up around the triads.

 

They are the basis of my ear training, the basis of my rhythm and comp'ing training, the basis of my scale work, the basis of my fretboard training.

 

My only specific exercise to recommend would be to learn the 2-octave triad arps (one single position) in 9 fingering patterns (three different starting fingers for each inversion). For example, take the A minor triad 2-octave arp starting at the 6th string / 5th fret. Most people know one shape for this arp in this area, (starting with the index finger on 6th string / 5th fret) but work out how to play it starting from the same "A" note with the middle finger and with the pinky. The arps starting on the index and pinky are the skeletons for two of the common pentatonic patterns, all three fingerings are skeletons for three different major scale fingerings (Positional Forms). The astute student will realize that there's also a pentatonic pattern that starts on the middle finger - but it's not one of the five common pentatonic patterns.

 

Have fun!

[zigzag]

mcmurray,

 

That was brilliant... a real lightbulb moment for me! My instructor has been trying to get me to think like that for years, or at least trying to move me in that direction, and it just occurred to me.

 

I learned the neck a little differently. I learned fret distances to each note in a chord, eg the 1(root)-0 frets, the 2-2 frets, the 3-4 frets, the 4-5 frets, the 5-7 frets, the 6-9 frets, the 7-11 frets, Octave-12 frets, and all the fret distances for two octaves. Going from the bottom to the top just reversed the process. When I learned scales and modes, I was supposed to be paying attention to those distances. I found out that while I am learning the basics, I need to be paying attention and thinking about the implications during the process.

 

That became the foundation for learning chord shapes, triads and inversions.

 

I had another light bulb moment when I realized that the if the 1 is on the 6th string and I lay my finger from top to bottom on the same fret, then my finger is on the 4 on the fifth string, the b7 on the fourth string, the b3 on the third, the 5 on the second, and the octave is on the first. If the 1 is on the fifth string, then you just make the adjustment. Chords take shape from there.

[daveinspain]

I found this simple explanation helpful:

 

The starting point is the major triad, in the example in C major, but this concept is valid for all keys, as usual.

 

The C major chord is built with these three notes:

 

C E G

 

As we said this triad is built with the Root © the 3rd (E) and the 5th (G) of the major scale. Also, if we calculate the intervals between the Root and the other two notes we notice that there is an interval of a major 3rd between C and E and of a perfect 5th between C and G.

 

So if I wanted to write a formula for the major triad I would write

 

C E G

 

1 3 5 (Root-Major third-Perfect fifth)

 

If now we want to find the chord C minor all we have to do is lower the 3rd of the chord (E is lowered to Eb)

 

So now the triad for C minor is

 

C Eb G

 

1 b3 5 (Notice how the formula changes Root –Minor Thirds – Perfect fifth)

 

From this I can tell that the difference between a major and minor chord is in the 3rd.

 

 

—

 

 

The diminished and augmented triads can be told from the 5th.

 

 

If C major is C E G

 

 

C augmented is C E G# (I have raised the 5th of a halfstep)

 

Formula 1 3 #5

 

C diminished is C Eb Gb (a minor triad with the flattened 5th)

 

Formula 1 b3 b5