Only a Gibson is good enough but are they consistent enough?

[Hoss]

I like to play guitars before I buy them- and in a perfect world, why not? But I don't see any more issues with new Gibsons than with any other company. So if you feel that it's imperative that you play a new Gibson before purchase, I would expect you to apply that approach to any other brand of guitar as well.

 

If you are obsessed with finish details-- I would readily agree that there are other brands that are finished to a higher level. But the cost of that handiwork is always reflected in the price.

 

I'm more interested in sound and playability.

 

The playability can be handled with a good setup- and I'd expect to have this done with any guitar I purchased. If I pulled one off the store wall that was already perfect for my playing style- that would be considered miraculous good fortune.

 

So it comes down to sound. What kind of sound were/are you expecting? If you've played a number of the same model, then you know that there can be subtle variations in the sound. Slight differences in the bass or treble, balance, punch, midrange strength...etc. Depending on how new the guitar is- most of these sounds will change as the guitar ages and you play it. And your playing style will adjust gradually to the guitar to get the sound out of it that you desire.

 

Yeah, I'd always prefer to play a new guitar before buying. But that guitar can be set up to play well. And the sound should also improve as you play it.

[6stringTom]

I've been fortunate to live near excellent stores with good in stock inventory to choose from. But, if that's not the case i don't think I would make too big a deal of having to ship back a guitar with a trial period. That seems a fairly small cost to get the instrument you want. I would make sure the return policy is clear and, if possible, that other buyers have found them to really honor it. I would want to be sure the return is unconditional--if I don't like it, they'll take it back. I'd check if there's a restock fee. Probably other forum members can recommend dealers with good return policies. The alternative is finding a way to get to a store with good inventory. That would be a lot more fun and allow for multiple comparisons, but for some folks it may just be too far away.

 

I also agree that if you know someone at a particular store, getting that person's opinion over the phone can help to improve the chances of getting what you want. This would be especially helpful at stores with mature (musically) staff who are well-informed about the kind of music you play. I haven't played enough Gibsons to form an opinion about consistency, but it would help a lot to know how particular you are and what the odds are of getting a real dog in any brand.

 

First impressions have to be good, but for me, at least, I don't really appreciate a guitar until I've had it a while. Like Hoss, I find that I warm up to a particular guitar and have to discover its special qualities, although it has to be good to start with or I won't want to make the effort.

[Honky Dog]

I've been fortunate to live near excellent stores with good in stock inventory to choose from. But' date=' if that's not the case i don't think I would make too big a deal of having to ship back a guitar with a trial period. That seems a fairly small cost to get the instrument you want. I would make sure the return policy is clear and, if possible, that other buyers have found them to really honor it. I would want to be sure the return is unconditional--if I don't like it, they'll take it back. I'd check if there's a restock fee. Probably other forum members can recommend dealers with good return policies. The alternative is finding a way to get to a store with good inventory. That would be a lot more fun and allow for multiple comparisons, but for some folks it may just be too far away.

 

I also agree that if you know someone at a particular store, getting that person's opinion over the phone can help to improve the chances of getting what you want. This would be especially helpful at stores with mature (musically) staff who are well-informed about the kind of music you play. I haven't played enough Gibsons to form an opinion about consistency, but it would help a lot to know how particular you are and what the odds are of getting a real dog in any brand.

 

First impressions have to be good, but for me, at least, I don't really appreciate a guitar until I've had it a while. Like Hoss, I find that I warm up to a particular guitar and have to discover its special qualities, although it has to be good to start with or I won't want to make the effort. [/quote']

 

[drellis]

My basic point was that if you are going to spend $3K for a new guitar you should be able to do so with the confidence of knowing that you are getting a quality guitar but that simply isn't possible with Gibsons based on what others have said. You shouldn't have to play 10 Gibsons to find 1 good one... they should all be good. I suppose any guitar manufacturer is capable of making a bad guitar but if they do, they shouldn't try to sell it. Apparently Gibson has some QC issues or else you would not hear so many gripes about their inconsistency. Again, I don't hear this being said about other guitar brands.

 

Unfortunately for me Gibson mainly sells their products now through mail-order companies such as Musicians Friend and chain stores such as Guitar Center so I am unable to just walk in a local music store and play a Gibson before buying it.

[Guth]

drellis,

 

I would also point out that I've felt this same way about Gibson acoustics for some time now. I've always had a bit of a love/hate relationship with Gibson acoustics and the issue of tonal consistency. I'll pass on the kool-aid thank you very much.

 

You inquired about other, smaller manufacturers. I feel that companies like Collings and Santa Cruz, etc. are far more consistent from one example to the next. When comparing like models, there might still be subtle tonal differences between each one they make, but the key word is subtle. This just simply is not the case with Gibsons in my experience.

 

At this point, I'm guessing a number of folks here are wondering why I even bother to purchase Gibson acoustics or spend time on this forum given my take on things. Here's the deal: Other manufacturers/builders offer models that look like Gibsons, but they don't sound like Gibsons. Granted, in my opinion "sound like a Gibson" is a very wide target as Jinder alluded to earlier. Still, in my experience, no one else can nail the particular tone I was looking for like Gibson can.

 

I've owned or spent considerable time playing models from Collings, Santa Cruz, Greven, etc.. Beautiful guitars all, but they still don't sound like a stellar Gibson to me. That's why I put forth the effort that I have. I'm very happy with my Gibson and yes, I feel that it was worth the effort because in the end, no other builder offers the tone that I was after. Now there might be some builders out there charging $5K + coming close, but I'm not a buyer in that market, especially not when I can get what I want from Gibson.

 

The other thing to note: if you go back twenty years in time there was a considerable difference in price between Gibson and some of the smaller manufacturers out there. Not only was Gibson's MSRP cheaper, but I used to be able to walk into a shop in Austin and buy a Gibson at 40% off MSRP without haggling. These days the difference in price isn't so great. Look at the overall average price when it comes to Gibsons these days and they deserve to be held to a higher standard for tone, playability, fit & finish, etc..

 

Not everyone is after the same tone (not even within the Gibson camp). Not everyone has the same ears. I'm guessing a number of guys that have played amplified music for many years without ear protection are much less capable of detecting differences in tone from one guitar to the next. Regardless what any of us here have to say, what matters in your case are your ears and your own sonic expectations. You are the only one who truly knows just how demanding you are when it comes to acoustic guitars. I certainly wish you luck in finding the tone that you are after.

 

All the best,

Guth

[Honky Dog]

I must be the luckiest guy on the planet. I've bought three new Gibsons over the last three years, all sight unseen, and all three of them are fantastic. Wonderful tone and flawless fit and finish. I had the setup altered on them, but I would do that on pretty much any guitar unless it just happened to be setup the way I want. I put bone saddles in them, and replaced the Baggs undersaddle pickups with K&K Pure Minis, but that is strictly a personal preference. I did have the option to return each of the guitars if I didn't like them, which I think is a requirement, but I wouldn't part with any of them. Same experience on my 2009 Martin D-18.

[Hoss]

My basic point was that if you are going to spend $3K for a new guitar you should be able to do so with the confidence of knowing that you are getting a quality guitar but that simply isn't possible with Gibsons based on what others have said. You shouldn't have to play 10 Gibsons to find 1 good one... they should all be good.

 

Drellis- I agree: you see this a lot on other forums--"beware Gibsons-- you have to play a lot to find 'the' one!!" and other similar stuff. So naturally' date=' you're cautious. Why wouldn't you be?

 

The Fact is this: You have to play a LOT of guitars to find THE ONE- if you're looking for an exceptional example from [i']any [/i]builder.

 

FACT Number Two: Many people do not 'get' the Gibson sound- especially when they're behind the guitar playing it. Just look at our friends over on the Martin forum. What's the most popular new Gibson model over there? hands down, the AJ. A long scale gibson that - to my ear- is the least representative of typical Gibson 'sound'. When people who prefer the Martin sound say they can never find a Gibson that they like, why would that surprise anyone?

 

As far as playing a lot of guitars to find THE ONE, that's up to anyone who wants to give it a go. But that applies to all makes.

 

A true story: John Greven, the respected luthier, once told me of a trip he made to a well known Northwest Guitar shop with a boatload of new Martins on the wall. basic models to one special edition at over 15K. He played them all and pronounced them all marginal.. (Well, he actually used another word :- ) There had to be 25 new Martins in that shop.

 

If you like the sound of Gibsons, balanced with solid Midrange- my guess is that you won't have to try 10 new ones to find one that you like-- a lot.

[drellis]

drellis' date='

 

I would also point out that I've felt this same way about Gibson acoustics for some time now. I've always had a bit of a love/hate relationship with Gibson acoustics and the issue of tonal consistency. I'll pass on the kool-aid thank you very much.

 

You inquired about other, smaller manufacturers. I feel that companies like Collings and Santa Cruz, etc. are far more consistent from one example to the next. When comparing like models, there might still be subtle tonal differences between each one they make, but the key word is subtle. This just simply is not the case with Gibsons in my experience.

 

At this point, I'm guessing a number of folks here are wondering why I even bother to purchase Gibson acoustics or spend time on this forum given my take on things. Here's the deal: Other manufacturers/builders offer models that look like Gibsons, but they don't sound like Gibsons. Granted, in my opinion "sound like a Gibson" is a very wide target as Jinder alluded to earlier. Still, in my experience, no one else can nail the particular tone I was looking for like Gibson can.

 

I've owned or spent considerable time playing models from Collings, Santa Cruz, Greven, etc.. Beautiful guitars all, but they still don't sound like a stellar Gibson to me. That's why I put forth the effort that I have. I'm very happy with my Gibson and yes, I feel that it was worth the effort because in the end, no other builder offers the tone that I was after. Now there might be some builders out there charging $5K + coming close, but I'm not a buyer in that market, especially not when I can get what I want from Gibson.

 

The other thing to note: if you go back twenty years in time there was a considerable difference in price between Gibson and some of the smaller manufacturers out there. Not only was Gibson's MSRP cheaper, but I used to be able to walk into a shop in Austin and buy a Gibson at 40% off MSRP without haggling. These days the difference in price isn't so great. Look at the overall average price when it comes to Gibsons these days and they deserve to be held to a higher standard for tone, playability, fit & finish, etc..

 

Not everyone is after the same tone (not even within the Gibson camp). Not everyone has the same ears. I'm guessing a number of guys that have played amplified music for many years without ear protection are much less capable of detecting differences in tone from one guitar to the next. Regardless what any of us here have to say, what matters in your case are your ears and your own sonic expectations. You are the only one who truly knows just how demanding you are when it comes to acoustic guitars. I certainly wish you luck in finding the tone that you are after.

 

All the best,

Guth[/quote']

 

Thanks for your candor. And I agree with you, if you pay a premium price you should get a premium guitar. If I want to gamble with $3000, I'll just go to Vegas!

 

Notwithstanding all that has been said about Gibsons being inconsistent, I still dig their tone. IMO a nice J-45 seems to have a sweet, melodic tone that you don't often hear from other guitars.

[bigbike4]

How does everyone feel about buying Gibsons on-line without having played the actual guitar you're buying? I have been reading a number of comments lately about Gibsons not being consistent. I keep hearing "play before you pay" and so forth. I have just found a Gibson J-45 TV that I'm interested in at a store located in another state so I will not have an opportunity to play it until after I have bought it and its shipped to me. From what I have read' date=' it seems that inconsistency is less of an issue with other major brands such as Martin and Taylor.

[/quote']

 

I would not even consider buying a quality guitar without playing it. The "cookie cutter" alvarez and ovations and Taylors (in my opinion-never heard a taylor I liked yet:-" ) may be okay to buy sight unseen and instrument unheard, but all wood guitars that you are gonna spend $$$$ or more on-no way. Pick it, strum it put it through its paces. Only time and the wood aging will tell.

[bkharmony]

From the comments I have read' date=' and I have read many, inconsistency seems to be much more of an issue/problem with Gibsons than other brands. It has nothing to do with "dead" strings, humidity, etc. because those factors affect ALL guitars equally whether they are Taylors, Martins or Gibsons.[/quote']

 

No.

 

No, no, no.

 

Look... people are going to freak out. For whatever reason, they like to complain about Gibsons. All I can say, is, don't listen. There's going to be an avalanche of reasons why you should buy another guitar. I can't negate that. The "consistency" thing is a myth in progress. Just hear and buy what strikes your heart.

[albertjohn]

No.

 

No' date=' no, no.

 

Look... people are going to freak out. For whatever reason, they like to complain about Gibsons. All I can say, is, don't listen. There's going to be an avalanche of reasons why you should buy another guitar. I can't negate that. The "consistency" thing is a myth in progress. Just hear and buy what strikes your heart.[/quote']

 

Best post on this thread so far!

 

Take care of your own business. I.e. Way up the risks before you consider an online purchase, or play it and make your own mind up.

 

When you are sitting, playing a potential purchase, deep down are you really concerned about whether some people think they are consistent or not - what difference does it make to the guitar on your lap? Trust your own judgement, not some Gibson basher on AGF.

[drellis]

No.

 

No' date=' no, no.

 

Look... people are going to freak out. For whatever reason, they like to complain about Gibsons. All I can say, is, don't listen. There's going to be an avalanche of reasons why you should buy another guitar. I can't negate that. The "consistency" thing is a myth in progress. Just hear and buy what strikes your heart.[/quote']

 

For whatever reason? Yes, alot of people do complain about Gibsons being inconsistent and many of them are Gibson owners! So obviously there is a reason. Therefore I am very reluctant to buy one on-line or over the phone.

[DAS44]

the guitar being damage.

 

well thats what i belive.

lmfao ;)

 

(Just ribbin' you Dem00n)

 

You can't expect a company to put out 100% perfect guitars (Well, I'm talking about Gibson not PRS... ;P)

 

Whats important is that they still put out a decent percentage of good guitars.

 

If it plays and sounds good, thats all that matters.

 

Like dem00n said improper shipping can mess the guitars up...

[ChrisA83]

Although I agree that trying before buying is ideal, it's not always possible.

 

I've bought all 4 of my guitars online and haven't had a problem with any of them, the last one being a J45 TV. On this particular note, has anyone here actually played a bad J45 TV? The quality of the TV line might put drellis' mind to rest.

[maninblack]

In the market at large there will always be a handful of awful guitars, lots of pretty good ones and relatively few very special ones. I believe to my core that Gibson makes as many or more keepers than any other production maker. In my experience the bad ones tend not to be greater in number just worse in sound than a below average Martin, Taylor, Collings, etc.

[drellis]

Today I contacted the store that has the J-45 TV that have been interested in. They actually have 2 that are both 2007 models but one is missing the pickguard. He said it just came right off the guitar! How's that for consistency? Same guitars, one has a pickguard and the other doesn't. I have never heard of the pickguard peeling off a "new" guitar, certainly not one that costs nearly $3000. I realize that isn't a serious problem but it just reaffirms what others have been saying.

 

I thought I wanted a Gibson but now I am having very serious doubts.

[Hoss]

Today I contacted the store that has the J-45 TV that have been interested in. They actually have 2 that are both 2007 models but one is missing the pickguard. He said it just came right off the guitar! How's that for consistency? Same guitars' date=' one has a pickguard and the other doesn't. I have never heard of the pickguard peeling off a "new" guitar, certainly not one that costs nearly $3000. I realize that isn't a serious problem but it just reaffirms what others have been saying.

 

I thought I wanted a Gibson but now I am having very serious doubts.[/quote']

 

If Gibson made the pickguards, you'd have a point. But this (pickguard issues) happen if you make enough guitars.

If you wanted a Gibson because you liked the sound of a Gibson- I guess you still will want one!

[J185-4Me]

So go buy a Santa Cruz and be done with it!

[Guth]

On this particular note' date=' has anyone here actually played a bad J45 TV?[/quote']

 

This really depends on how you are defining "bad". The first time I was able to play a J-45 TV I was not all that impressed. Two things in particular that bothered me about the guitar: The low-E string sounded like crap to me. It simply went "thunk" with no articulation/clarity to the note at all. There was basically no leading edge. Also, the treble strings sounded really thin, not at all sweet or fat. I found the overall tone irritating. The low-E thing in particular really bugs me, and lots of Gibsons have exhibited this particular trait. On that day I was more impressed with one of the regular issue J-45s hanging on the wall than I was with the TV model.

 

Speaking of articulation: I've tried to think of a better way to articulate my thoughts on this particular issue. The best thing I can come up with is what I'll call the "Nick Drake factor". I'm not exactly a huge Drake fan, but I do own the Pink Moon album. A good number of Gibson acoustics that I've played recently sound a hell of a lot like Nick Drake's guitar on this album, the tone of which I really don't care for. I'm guessing that a lot of others here think his guitars sounds fantastic. I still like listening to the tunes, I just don't want to emulate the tone of his guitar. Different strokes for different folks.

 

Some of the differences might also have to do with playing style. I'm primarily a fingerpicker, and don't strum chords all that often. I also tend to play up and down the fretboard. As a fingerpicker, I'm extremely sensitive to the tone and attack of each string as well as how the guitar sounds overall. Perhaps some of the things I listen for when evaluating a guitar are not what other people are worried about.

 

I've noted here previously that my current Gibson represents the fourth Bozeman made guitar that I've owned since 1991. So while I do note issues that I feel exist, I've also handed over a fair amount of my money to Gibson over the years as well. I've posted recordings of my playing here in the past which if nothing else represent what I think of as a great sounding Gibson acoustic (a J-45 TV in my case). I don't really think that I can clarify my experiences much more than that.

 

If some people want to chalk all this up as simply complaining on my part, then so be it.

 

drellis, like I said — in the end, what you hear with your own ears and how that compares with your sonic preferences is all that really matters.

 

All the best,

Guth

[ChrisA83]

Guth I think that sums up what a lot of people feel - basically that there are very few "bad" Gibsons, just "different" ones. You didn't like that J45 TV you played, but Nick Drake may have walked in after you and snapped it up

[drellis]

If Gibson made the pickguards' date=' you'd have a point.

[/quote']

 

I know Gibson doesn't make the pickguards but they do put them on the guitar!

[Eddie Rondack]

Reply to OP...

 

Yes.

[zombywoof]

The way I look at it - on one hand, any hand built instrument will be different from the next do to slight variations in wood thickness, bracing placement or whatever. It is the guitar's "soul" as it were. On the other hand, guitar building is a precise process so those differences, if the guitar is well built, should be more subtle than glaring.

 

Ain't nuttin new though. The SJ that I ended up with was the third I had taken home for a test drive - all made within one year of each other. The one that got my juices flowing was louder, punchier, quicker with more of crackling edge to it than the others. I will never be sure though how much of the difference in sound was due to manufacture or the aging process.

[ajsc]

"Only a Gibson is good enough but are they consistent enough?"

 

Yes!!

[jannusguy]

Today i bought my 10th Gibson via the internets. A 2007 J185 TV. I'll receive it on Friday. I expect it will settle in nicely right along side of the rest. The only guitar I ever sent back from an internet purchase was a brand new Martin HD 28VS. Maybe I'm just lucky.