Gibson Shmibson...

[Larry1281734007]

I had a Gibson ES135 with humbuckers for a couple of years. The switch was the first thing to go, and then the input jack. I sold it, and now I use a Casino and a Jimmie Vaughn strat.

[epicrusader]

for the price of ONE gigson you can get three Epi Elitist that will be as good as if not better then the one gibby

or you can get six epiphones plus modding all of them, might not be as good as the one gibby but close enough to where very few will notice...

 

this isnt a slam on gibson...its a slam on their pricing...

[Prospero]

Screw guitars. Ukuleles are where it's at.

 

[yosoybay]

for the price of ONE gigson you can get three Epi Elitist that will be as good as if not better then the one gibby

or you can get six epiphones plus modding all of them' date=' might not be as good as the one gibby but close enough to where very few will notice...

 

this isnt a slam on gibson...its a slam on their pricing...[/quote']

 

I don't understand this thinking - when will people realize that an Epi Elitist is NOT as good as the Gibson? The advantage to the Elitist is that, dollar for dollar, it is probably better than the Gibson. But in an absolute sense, it is not and never will be better than the Gibson. They are great guitars, though.

[hbucker]

But in an absolute sense' date=' it is not and never will be better than the Gibson. [/quote']

 

I see this as an absolute statement only within the context of your own opinion. Which Gibson products are you referring to? Depending on that, I would either adamantly disagree with you or agree with you.

 

I would fight for your right to have your own opinion though...

[yosoybay]

Which Gibson products are you referring to? Depending on that' date=' I would either adamantly disagree with you or agree with you. [/quote']

 

Any solid-body electric that both Gibson and Epiphone have made. SG Standards, LP Standards, etc. I don't have enough experience with the hollow/semi-hollow bodies to know, but I would assume they are the same.

 

True that you can have your opinion about everything, but there are three key differences between the Elitist (say, LP) and the Gibson: Finish, wood quality, and the people that assemble them. Some people may actually like the poly better than the nitro for durability, so that is moot in my opinion. But how can you say Asian assembly and African mahogany are better than US assembly and Honduran mahogany? I suppose it is your right to make that your opinion, but that would be quite an interesting assertion.

[RotcanX]

 

I don't understand this thinking - when will people realize that an Epi Elitist is NOT as good as the Gibson? The advantage to the Elitist is that' date=' [u']dollar for dollar[/u], it is probably better than the Gibson. But in an absolute sense, it is not and never will be better than the Gibson. They are great guitars, though.

 

Sorry, but you're just wrong on that one. All my Elitists are definitely on a par with their Gibson counterparts; equal if not better. Which is not to say that an Elitist is the same as a Gibson; all I'm saying is that tonewise, quality wise, materials wise and playability wise, the Elitist is on par with a Gibson, just as a US-made PRS or a US-made Dean would be.

 

I own four Gibsons, three Elitists, and seven Epiphones. The Elitists and the Gibsons are in the same league; the Epiphones aren't.

[RotcanX]

there are three key differences between the Elitist (say' date=' LP) and the Gibson: Finish, wood quality, and the people that assemble them. Some people may actually like the poly better than the nitro for durability, so that is moot in my opinion. But how can you say Asian assembly and African mahogany are better than US assembly and Honduran mahogany? [/quote']

Firstly, finish: the Elitist finish tends to be of better quality than Gibson finishes with respect to the application. DO NOT confuse the Elitist polyurethane finish with the Epiphone inch-thick polester finish; I doubt that anyone will be able to prove any significant advantage to either Gibson's lacquer finish or the Elitist urethane. Both are excellently and thinly applied so as not to impact the tone.

Second, wood quality: Gibson is no longer able to get the same quality of mahogany that they used to use in the fifties, and as far as that goes the African species is considered equivalent in all respects.

Third: Sorry, but Japanese labour quality outstripped US labour many years ago. Blame your unions. If you don't believe me, go out by the highway and count Toyotas, Nissans, Lexi, Infinitis, etc. QED.

[yosoybay]

 

Sorry' date=' but you're just wrong on that one. All my Elitists are definitely on a par with their Gibson counterparts; equal if not better. Which is not to say that an Elitist is the [i']same[/i] as a Gibson; all I'm saying is that tonewise, quality wise, materials wise and playability wise, the Elitist is on par with a Gibson, just as a US-made PRS or a US-made Dean would be.

 

I own four Gibsons, three Elitists, and seven Epiphones. The Elitists and the Gibsons are in the same league; the Epiphones aren't.

 

That's fine, agree to disagree. I guess there are people that think Asian assembly and African mahogany are equal to US assembly and Honduran mahogany.

 

I agree that they're in the same "league," Rotcan, but I do think the two aforementioned factors are significant to some degree (even if it's a small one).

[tulsaslim]

Well at least your argument is legitimate since the 'African vs. Honduran Mahogany' & 'nitro vs. poly' finishes are about the only legitimate differences between the two guitars (outside of the headstock & price). I tend to agree with Spud on this one but commend you on basing your argument on 'real' differences.

[charlie brown]

LOL! I love this...Gibson VS Epiphone (or anyone else) stuff! What a hoot! It's always a circular (pointless)

argument, as "Gibson" people are not going to be swayed away, and Epi folks, always try to make themselves

feel better (whether they admit it, or not) about thier choices, economically forced, or not! Who cares! What

do you PLAY, that's the best measure, of what you like/love! I, like many here, have plenty of both brands,

as well as others (Fender, Gretsch, Rickenbacker, etc.). I have never once, decided which to play, based on

the Brand on the headstock! I bought my Epi's because I loved them...the tone, the looks, playability, etc.

Sure, I would prefer if they were still made in the good old USA, but they're not, and probably won't be, again.

So what?! Japanese craftsmen are every bit as good, as any, in the world. I dare say, that every country has

wonderful craftsmen/women. So, forget about where, by who, and who's is better, etc. "It's all ****!" (John Lennon)

Love what you have, play the Hell out of it, and justify it, to no one. "No one can make you feel inferior, without YOUR

permission!" (Elenor Roosevelt) LOL!

 

CB

[Ron G]

[sorry' date= but Japanese labour quality outstripped US labour many years ago. Blame your unions. If you don't believe me, go out by the highway and count Toyotas, Nissans, Lexi, Infinitis, etc. QED.[/quote]

 

Since the subject of Japanese cars and labor quality has come up, I'd like to chime in. In my limited personal experience and from what I've read here, there are quality-control issues with Epiphone guitars. My soon-to-be-returned Dot Studio is but one example. I've looked at many Epi's at GC; one first-quality Dot Studio looked way worse than my B-stock Dot while others vary from one to another. And I've noticed in this forum that many have said that they had to check several same-model guitars to get a good one. Geez, you don't have to drive a bunch of new Accords to find a good one. Also, it appears (again from my limited experience and what is reported in this forum) that the lower-end Epi's are not as good as their brethren; if you buy a Honda Civic instead of an Acura RL, you expect less, not junk.

 

I'll use Honda/Acura as my analog to Gibson/Epiphone. Big difference in price and frills but no difference in quality. Unfortunately, neither Gibson nor Epiphone can approach the quality standards of Honda. As Rot said, look how many Japanese cars are out there. And don't forget, MANY OF THEM ARE MADE IN THE US!!! I'm not sure Gibson or Epiphone is really worthy of customer loyalty, considering the QC issues. But is there a Honda/Toyota/Nissan equivalent in the world of guitars?

[RotcanX]

Ron... we are talking about Elitists, which are made in Japan, not Asia (i.e. Korea or China) like their regular line counterparts. The differences between the two are like day and night, as reflected in the price tags.

 

About the only real difference between African mahogany and the Honduras stuff is that the African variety tends to show a 'striped' effect and as such is actually prettier. This is not my opinion, this is what I learned from a luthier friend who knows more about this kind of stuff than I ever will. If African mahogany was inferior, why would Epi spend so much effort faking out their LPs and G-400s with veneers of the stuff trying to fool us into thinking they are actually made of it?

[Ron G]

Ron... we are talking about Elitists' date=' which are made in Japan, not Asia (i.e. Korea or China) like their regular line counterparts. The differences between the two are like day and night, as reflected in the price tags.[/quote']

 

Gotcha, Rot. But what I said goes for Epi vs Epi Elitist, regardless of the reasons (Japanese vs Chinese vs Korean). I would expect the Elitists to have better quality woods, bindings, inlays, etc. but not QC. Hey, remember the first Hyundais to be sold in this country? Major junk. But look at them now - QC and reliability on par with the best. Not technologically as good as some but well-made and reliable just the same - oh, and cheap. No excuse for Gibson, et al to be selling junk. And take a look at the reliability records of Mercedes and BMW - horrible, regardless of the price. I really don't know why these vast differences exist in the quality of products in general but it seems that some companies have a higher standard of quality than others.

 

Edit: Thinking about it some more, I think Hyundai is a very interesting case. After a disastrous intro to the US market because of quality issues, they made an almost miraculous recovery. That recovery was almost entirely due to upping their quality/reliability - and it wasn't much about their product line. Point is, cheap doesn't have to mean junk. Some automakers lost market share and are on the edge of bankruptcy in large part due to quality issues and that's because consumers went elsewhere. Tolerance of shoddy products only guarantees more shoddy products.

[yosoybay]

lol, I'm surprised I made a statement for Gibson, since I am certainly not a "Gibson guy." I'm not even a member of the Gibson forums! I just think there's a difference - may not be large, but it's there.

 

Please keep in mind that I'm not knocking Epiphone or Elitists - I love my Epiphone LP and I'm currently on the market for a used Elitist SG! I don't plan on buying a Gibson any time soon. I simply think there is a difference, however small it may be. If you've seen me post in the past, however, you've probably seen me say that I don't think the actual difference is worth the price difference.

[Biff]

And take a look at the reliability records of Mercedes and BMW - horrible' date=' regardless of the price. I really don't know why these vast differences exist in the quality of products in general but it seems that some companies have a higher standard of quality than others.[/quote']

 

Just economics... I read somewhere that Mercedes Benz in Germany were on the top in customer satisfaction until they cut their quality control and related costs by something like 50-80% in the '90s. After making the quick profit they have been way behind their competition in the polls.

 

Same goes with any mass production process, if you want quality you need to invest a lot of years and dollars into it.

 

If the QC target is set high and the products suck most of the production goes down the drain and you will lose money.

If the QC target is set low and the products suck the markets will be flooded with blems and 2nd grade products and you will lose customers.

 

The balance can sometimes be hard to achieve when the quality is controlled by human beings.

[RotcanX]

I would expect the Elitists to have better quality woods' date=' bindings, inlays, etc. but not QC.[/quote']

 

I don't know why... good QC would be a part of what makes the Japanese instruments superior. Unfortunately I have far less hands-on experience with Elitists than I do with regular Epis but nonetheless everything I have heard here backs up my personal experience regarding the superior quality of Elitists. In fact, I've only ever seen one 'bad' Elitist, I dunno if you saw the post not far back with an Elitist Byrdland (I think) that had a VERY black sunburst... and that one was marked as a second, and probably failed the QC.

 

On the other hand, I have seen plenty of bad Korean/Chinese Epis that have been allowed out with high frets, finish flaws, crooked tuners, and bad wiring.

 

Part of the discrepancy may be due to luck and the fact that one doesn't see as many Elitists... but I think most of it is just due to superior workmanship and more stringent QC.

[hbucker]

I simply think there is a difference' date=' however small it may be. If you've seen me post in the past, however, you've probably seen me say that I don't think the actual difference is worth the price difference. [/quote']

 

I agree there are differences. Where I think we disagree is that I don't believe difference = better or worse. Simply different.

 

Because of this I see where someone could prefer a Gibson and how someone else could prefer Elitist. I maintain that Elitists are just viable options to Gibson and if Gibson made Elitists in the U.S. to the identical specs that they are currently made in Japan, and put "Gibson" on the headstock, they would simply be seen as that. Another Gibson product and a viable alternative. Of course the higher price tag would give them more respectability too.

[RotcanX]

I simply think there is a difference' date=' however small it may be.[/quote']

 

No argument here. My point is that 'different' does not imply 'inferior'.

 

Absolutely right that an Elitist is different from a Gibson. I'm not saying they're the same; I'm saying they are as good. Think of it as two different routes to the same destination. Ignoring the headstock and pickup choices, the Elitist SG is different from the Gibson '61 reissue in some details; for one thing, the Gibson is finished in Heritage Cherry, which is more orangey bleached colour, making the guitar look as though it is 40 years old while the Elitist is finished in regular Cherry as though it was made yesterday. Also, you will notice that the frets are finished differently where they meet the binding. Different? Yes. Is one better than the other? Depends on what you are looking for I guess; I happen to like them both, each in different ways. However, when you pick 'em up and plug 'em in, they both sound great and feel awesome. I've owned and played a few SGs in my time and I am one picky mofo when it comes to what constitutes a good one and while I can't say the same for a G-400, the Elitist SG definitely 'has the SG nature'. Believe you me, if it didn't measure up to the Gibson '61 I'd be the first guy here panning it. You should see the review I did of my brand-new 1999 G-400 on Harmony Central... ouch.

 

Same goes for the Elitist LP... I just did a minor tune-up on a beautiful Gibson LP Standard in Rootbeer the other day and I'm sorry, but as fine as it is, there is nothing about it that I feel I am missing with my Elitist. Whether the mahogany is African or Honduran, the point is that there is a solid 1-3/4" slab of it under that flawless finish and you can hear that in every note you play. When I play my LP I can honestly forget that it's not a Gibson (which I can't do with a MIK/MIC). I am confident that in a blind test using equivalent pickups (either put 490/498s in the Gibson or put '57 Classics (SG) or BB Pros (LP) in the Elitist) no-one will be able to pick which is which, at least not before the sweat starts to build up on the neck at which point that stickiness you get on a Gibson neck will give it away.

 

I think the bottom line here is that if two different guitar makers both start with high-quality materials and parts and then do the same meticulous job of making the best possible instrument they can with them, you will always end up with a world-class instrument whether you do it in Nashville USA or Matsumoto Japan.

 

Ah I see hbucker beat me to the punch.. damn, I'm long-winded.

[noobzilla]

Regarding the comments made about Gibsons being better because of the people who made them.... No offense to those factory workers, BUT, I could care less if a crackhead made my Epis, they have held up, performed flawlessly, and never failed me. Regarding the wood quality... blah blah blah, Im so sick of people trying to sell me on wood quality. Sure some guitars are just junk, yes, some have cheap wood, but my Epi Custom is not one of them, and regarding the finish, laquer vs. paint/gloss, another GIMME A BREAK. My Epis shine like the day they came off the asian racks.

 

If you want Gibson, fine, go for it. Im not bashin you, Im just saying... My Epis are just as good with a couple minor upgrades, mainly pickups and pots, and even then, my epi custom sounded so good out of the box I havent even bothered to change those.

 

Gibson is just a lame corp. these days, imo. $4000 for an axe, when the $800 is almost as good, if not as good. Thats just too big of a spread. Add that to the fact that they only allow their hand picked dealers to sell them, which basically means.. 'hey you can sell our gibsons but only at marked up prices' , and theyre just lame. Im not nocing the Gibson guitar necessarily, even though personally I have had several FAIL during a performance, Im just mocking their hype, their price, and theyre company policies.

 

I used to buy them for that cool logo on the head, like SOOOO many others do, but anymore, the logo represents overpriced average guitar to me. The Epi logo represents the average guy who plays just as good, and doesnt wanna throw his money away.

[smerdlap]

Yeah, i wanted some sort of Gibson SG for a while, then i thought, "what the hell? I'll just get a G-400 for less money and still very good quality!"

[TheX]

If money were no object I would replace all of my Epi's with Gibsons. Money IS a big factor for almost all of us so I get the most I can for it. I will continue to own and buy Gibson now and then however...along with Fender and Gretsch and all of the others I love to play. My Epiphones hang on the same walls as the others.

[noobzilla]

gibson losing market share.

 

with all the new guitar makers over the past 10 years making MUCH higher quality guitars gibson is now facing a 50% loss in market share overall according to the wall street journal. theyre response ? higher prices.

 

I love my epi's but even so i hate my money going to gibson. I wont buy any more gibson or any brands associated. i can buy better axes for 1/2 their prices.

[Ron G]

i can buy better axes for 1/2 their prices.

 

It appears that many others have done just that.

[Suicidehummer]

As much as I think Epis are great for the price range, I'd buy a Gibson if I could. I even played an Elitist, and it simply couldn't match up.

 

Although the Elitists may match up on paper, in real life, they don't play as well. But considering they're $1000+ cheaper, they should be commended for even competing with the Gibsons.