JRizZ Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Ok, so I know Elitists are really good etc. And I can appreciate how the difference in materials with the solid body guitars can really make a difference. But my question is here that is there the same amount of difference with the archtops? As mentioned in several other threads, I have found that generally the Casinos, Sheraton IIs etc seem to be of a more consistent standard, and also of a higher standard than most solidbody Epiphones - I know this is certainly the case in my collection. So - what with there being more "craftsmanship" in the semi hollow Epiphones - is the difference between a normal Sheraton or Casino compared to its Elitist brother the same as with Les Pauls etc? I know that my Sheraton II is brilliant - especially after a pickup upgrade (I can see how they would be better on an Elitist obviously), and I can't see many ways in which it'd be improved. But I am not saying that Elitists are not worth having by any degree! I just wondered if anyone out there with access to more guitars than me could fill me in a bit! Many thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RotcanX Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 I too owned an Epiphone thinline, the Dot, which I was very proud of. With Gibson 490R/498T pickups, a correct style pickguard, and a really good fret levelling job, I figured I had myself a damn fine guitar and it sounded pretty good. Then I made the mistake of actually holding the Elitist version. Without plugging it in, without even strumming it, I could immediately feel the difference. Needless to say, by the end of the day I had an Elitist on order and the Dot was 'for sale'. It's true that the gap is less perceivable on the thinlines, since they're all basically plywood guitars. However, I'm pretty sure that the Elitists use a much better grade of plywood. Also, the Elitist 335 has a proper maple center block while the Dot has a luaun center block; this makes a huge difference in the tone. Also the Elitist has a much slimmer mahogany neck vs the chunkier Dot neck which is definitely not made of true mahogany. Then you get all the extra details, such as a bound fingerboard, nickel hardware, an awesome case... actually the only change I had to make to my 335 was to install Grover 18:1 tuners in nickel to match the rest of the hardware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRizZ Posted July 31, 2008 Author Share Posted July 31, 2008 Cool thanks for that - anyone have any views on the Elitist Sheraton? I love my Sheraton II and it has a way nicer neck (in my opinion) than a Dot (which to me is a mroe budget thinline than a Casino or Sheraton II). I guess that centre block will make a good difference like you say on the Elitist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubstar Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 the elitist has mini-humbuckers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RotcanX Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Yeah, the Elitist Sheraton is closer in spirit to the true Sheratons since the original Sheratons never had full-size humbuckers. That alone makes the Elitist more interesting to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRizZ Posted July 31, 2008 Author Share Posted July 31, 2008 Yeah I know about the difference in pickups as I said at the beginning of the thread, but if that was the main difference then I can't really see that I'd ever choose an Elitist Sheraton over the regular one. The difference in price doesn't seem to be justified that much, and I'm very happy with my Sheraton II with Gibson PAFs in. I don't believe that an Elitist would sound better than that (although I of course could be wrong!). I'd never knock anyone for getting an Elitist Sheraton, but for me I couldn't justify that extra £££. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RotcanX Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 I don't believe that an Elitist would sound better than that (although I of course could be wrong!). Like I said, the sound on the Elitist 335 is far and away better than the Dot. The 335 rings and the Dot, by comparison, thuds. Of course a lot of people are unable to distinguish the difference; it's most obvious when the guitars aren't plugged in. Some players might not feel that the difference is that great but to me it's like night and day. I understand your feelings regarding the extra £££; however in my case, I was able to get a 'B' stock model which meant a further 25% discount off my usual employee pricing (I work part-time at a music store) and I was able to find a discriminating buyer who appreciated the 'value added' condition of my Dot, so it was an easier decision to come to. The Epi Sheri with aftermarket pickups is a fine guitar in its own right. I don't know if you've had the opportunity to actually try an Elitist Sheraton; like you, I was completely satisfied with my Dot and was not considering an Elitist in any way shape or form until I actually held one... so maybe you want to avoid trying one! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRizZ Posted July 31, 2008 Author Share Posted July 31, 2008 I would love to try an Elitist Sheri, but, alas, Epiphones are dropping out of many UK guitar shops faster than you can set a Fender on fire! Due to Gibson going independent and the prohibitive demands they make on shops who want to stock their guitars (40% floor space dedicated to Gibson family guitars - very large minimum stock orders etc) the only guitars I see in my local guitar shops that say Gibson or Epiphone on the headstock are second hand trade ins. It is a shame - because back in '96 when I started playing guitar I used to love to see them hanging in the shops - they made me GAS real bad!! I've never even seen an Epiphone Elitist - of course as I have complained about before on here - neither Epiphone or Gibson bothered to turn up at the London Guitar Show - so I couldn't even see them there! Maybe they just don't want to sell guitars here anymore - they certainly act that way. And don't get me started on the trans-Atlantic price difference! I think they send them over here on gold-plated planes or something!!! Anyway - back on track - thanks for the input - it really was a genuine question rather than any judgement. I'd like an Elitist of some kind one day as I am a big Epiphone fan. I just need to find a shop that sells them first...! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supernova1281734074 Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 JRizZ In reply - I too live in England and have been after an elitist too. I've found the American ebay sellers won't ship them, or want excessive postage ie $400 to ship via UPS, or approx $150 USPS, but then there's all these demands which go with it, which put you off buying one. In Preston we have no guitar shops - we lost our Sound Control as has Manchester, Manchester has only a couple of smaller shops, and a yearly guitar show - I didn't see any elitists apart from a J Lennon Casino in vintage sunburst for £1000, but as he was a dealer he only wanted cash, and didn't have a £1000 in cash at the time - and didn't really know what the dii was between this and the 65 casino and the dealer didn't know either. Had thought of going to Birmingham's yearly guitar show to see if elitists were available - but if there wasn't at London's guitar show - it would seem unlikely. I've found two dealers who have the Elitists in England:- www.coda-music.com Epiphone Elitist 1963 Dot natural RRP £1021 Our Price £779.00 Epiphone Elitist 1965 Casino vintage s/burst RRP £1060 Our Price £799.00 Epiphone Elitist 1965 Casino natural RRP £1060 Our Price £799.00 Epiphone Elitist Broadway natural RRP £1571 Our Price £1,199.00 Epiphone Elitist Byrdland natural RRP £1571 Our Price £1,199.00 Epiphone Elitist Les Paul Custom ebony RRP £863 Our Price £669.00 www.wizardguitars.com – Sheffield Epiphone Elitist 1963 Dot natural Price £1099 There's a few Elitist dots in Germany for approx £20's/30 more in sunburst, but i'd like to try a sheraton v a 63 dot, and no dealer has a sheraton to try. Hope this is of help John Bullivant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pohatu771 Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 I know this doesn't help, but it may make you feel better... I live in New York, and I've never seen an Elitist in person, either. Let's get some opinions on the Elitist Casino... RotcanX's main argument for the Elitist Dot was the center block, which the Casino doesn't have. The Casino already has a bound fretboard. Is the only difference here the pickups, and the quality of the plywood? Other than the finish, I can't imagine my Casino feeling any better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RotcanX Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Let's get some opinions on the Elitist Casino... RotcanX's main argument for the Elitist Dot was the center block' date=' which the Casino doesn't have. The Casino already has a bound fretboard. Is the only difference here the pickups, and the quality of the plywood? Other than the finish, I can't imagine my Casino feeling any better.[/quote'] I believe you are correct in that the regular Casino will be closer to the Elitist due to the all-hollow construction. Also the pickup difference is probably less as well; everyone seems to acknowlege that Epi's P-90s are of very good quality. The only remaining area would be with regard to the feel of the neck. I know that the Casinos have a really slim neck but nonetheless every Elitist I have bought (SG, ES-335, LP) has blown the doors off the equivalent Epi in terms of the neck's contour and smooth glassy finish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRizZ Posted July 31, 2008 Author Share Posted July 31, 2008 Yeah - this is sort of the the feeling tha I had - I can accept that the Elitists probably are better- but not that much better than justifies such a massive incerase in price (in the UK at least), often twice as much! The solid body guitars I can understand what with some of the garbage coming out of China. But my upgraded Samick is definitely good enough for all the slimline needs I can forsee! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 I live in the Detroit Metro area, I've been looking for an elitist just to see what all the fuss is. I have not found one anywhere around here. I think they are a myth. Also, like the UK, Gibson is demanding so much from their retailers that many of them can afford to carry Gibson. I only see them at Guitar Center, (way up high on the wall). Not sure what their sales strategy is, make guitars impossible to find so you want them more??? I bought a Sheraton II a couple years ago, it is unbelievably beautiful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pohatu771 Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Elitists cost at least twice what the standard model costs, in the US. Casino is $600, the Elitist is $1350. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RotcanX Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Yeah - this is sort of the the feeling tha I had - I can accept that the Elitists probably are better- but not that much better than justifies such a massive incerase in price (in the UK at least)' date=' often twice as much! [/quote']Ah well, that's life. You very rarely get something twice as good for only twice the price; more usually it'll cost five to ten times as much. Here in Canada the Elitists were usually three times the price of the equivalent Epi while Gibsons tend to be at least five times the price. Again, it all boils down to what you are willing to spend and what performance level you are going to be content with. And with guitars it's even squirrelier than that since so much of a guitar's appeal can be subjective. I can compare the performance of a Ferrari versus a Firebird in terms of concrete numbers such as top speed, acceleration, cornering ability, etc. but when it comes to guitars no such parameters exist. Again, all I can offer as a final argument is that I have yet to hear of a single Elitist owner that feels they paid too much for their guitar. I live in the Detroit Metro area' date=' I've been looking for an elitist just to see what all the fuss is. I have not found one anywhere around here. I think they are a myth.[/quote']I hear you on that one. I think I've seen maybe four Elitists hanging in stores since 2003. The store I work at can't justify stocking them either; it's too hard to convince a buyer of their value. Of the four Elitists we have ordered, three were for myself and the fourth one was ordered on behalf of and shipped to another forum member. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red 333 Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 There are a couple other differences between a Dot and Elitist Dot. The Dot's body is not constructed with kerfing (or it used not to be, while the Elitist's body is constructed with kerfing, same as a Gibson ES 335. Kerfing, in theory, would facilitate better enery transferance between the top, bottom and sides, and therefore, to the strings. Rot wrote about the superior grade of mahogany in the Elitist's neck; it's also one piece. The Dot's neck has a joint in it. Again, that's going to have some effect on the transmission of string vibration through the neck to the body. When comparing a standard Casino to an Elitist, it's easy to see that the Elitists are easily more refined, and sound more alive. The two Lennon Casinos are even a little better than the Elitists, in my opinion. I think we've discussed this at length in other posts, so you can search for that. Sure, both a standard Casino and Elitist have plywood bodies (as do the Dots), but Rot is right in thinking that there are some grades that are superior acousticaly. Plys can be all maple, maple and mahogany (as some late 50's Gibson ES 335's were), maple and birch (traditionally what a 335 is made from), etc. There may be three or five plys. The number of plys, their composition, and the manufacturing process all have an an effect on sound. The Dots, Casinos, and Elitist Dots and Casinos are all made with 5-ply maple bodies, but I think there are two birch plys in the Elitists. Thi might not make so much of a difference at high amp volume settings when you are going after a distorted sound, but it can have a difference at cleaner settings, especially in the Casino, as its design relies on the body's acoustic properties for its unique tone rather than the the Dots, which behave more like solid bodies guitars. No matter, anyone just picking one up will immediately feel and hear a difference. I have a friend who gigs regularly with a standard Casino, and the first time he picked up my Elitist, he couldn't believe the difference. This is not to say that either a regular Dot or Casino is not a good instrument. Both are. But the Elitists are clearly better playing, more refined instruments on any number of levels, and for many reasons, some which are not so easy to define. Clearly more care is taken building an Elitist. Red 333 Gibson ES 335, Gibson ES 333, Gibson ES 339, Epiphone Elitist Dot, Epiphone Elitist Casino, Epiphone John Lennon '65 Casino, Epiphone John Lennon Revolution Casino, Epiphone Elitist Les Paul Standard (2), Epiphone Elitist Byrdland, Epiphone Elitist '61 SG, Epiphone Elitist Texan, Epiphone Elitist McCartney Texan, Epiphone Elitist J200, Epiphone Dot Deluxe, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RotcanX Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Plys can be all maple' date=' maple and mahogany (as some late 50's Gibson ES 335's were), maple and birch (traditionally what a 335 is made from), etc. There may be three or five plys. The number of plys, their composition, and the manufacturing process all have an an effect on sound. The Dots, Casinos, and Elitist Dots and Casinos are all made with 5-ply maple bodies, but I think there are two birch plys in the Elitists.[/quote']HA! Gotcha Red! "Plies"... :- Actually I'm pretty sure that the plywood Epi uses on their regular line has mostly lauan layers under the outside layers of maple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vic Flick Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 When comparing a standard Casino to an Elitist' date=' it's easy to see that the Elitists are easily more refined, and sound more alive. The two Lennon Casinos are even a little better than the Elitists, in my opinion. I think we've discussed this at length in other posts, so you can search for that.[/quote'] Red is correct. I originally had a MIK Casino, it was OK, but the difference was obvious when I got my original Elitist. The acoustic tone of the MIK was thin, the Elitist deep & warm. From what I remember, the MIK had a three-ply top instead of the 5-ply on the Elitist. Each layer on the MIK was thicker, making it less resonant. I'm not sure about the current MIK/MIC models, and I'm sure there are some variations from factory to factory. Also, Casinos typically have a very narrow & thin neck, whereas my MIK had a thicker, roundish neck. Also, the pickups on the MIK were pretty far from the strings, and if you want that P-90 growl they should be fairly close to the strings. And raising the polepieces doesn't cut it. I've had a late '60s Gibson ES-330, and the Elitist Casino and my Lennon Revolution compared favorably. The MIK was not in the same league. My current P-90 hollowbodies are the Revolution, a Matsumoku Casino, and a 1967 Al Caiola Standard -- all excellent but slightly different. The Revolution has a slightly warmer tone than the Elitist had, but I attribute that to the thin lacquer finish and the nylon saddles. I don't know what kind of P-90s they used on the Matsumoku Casinos, but they really growl. The Caiola have a very warm, woodsy tone, probably due to the lack of f-holes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tulsaslim Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 I'd like to add my 2 cents. First, I travel around the US pretty frequently on business and lurk around music stores whenever I can. I have seen exactly ONE elitist in a music store (Monterrey, Ca) and know about only one other store (San Jose) that had them. We can only speculate as to why, but one may reasonably suspect that if a music store stocked both Gibson and elitists, Gibson sales would suffer considerably because the guitars are so very similar except one costs twice as much as the other. Most 'objective' customers who play them both could never justify paying twice as much for the Gibby. Second, I own 9 elitists and 6 'regular' Epis. I love 'em all but will say without reservation that the elitists are a LOT better than the regular Epis. (One only needs to play them both to know that to be true). As far as the dots are concerned, it is far more difficult to discern the differences between the elitist and a Gibson 335 than it is to see the differences between the elitists and the 'regular' Epi. It's easy to see the differences vs. the 'regular' Epi, damn difficult to see any differences between the elitist and the Gibby. I've said if before: The elitists are the best-kept secret in the entire guitar universe. BTW, I've bought all my elitists from either MF, 123, or Sweetwater except the one I bought from Lutheran1971 here on the forum. Lastly, I've never heard of anyone who has bought an elitist that has ever regretted doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JefferySmith Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Elite/Elitist are head and shoulders above the MIK Epiphones. You are right, though. The MIK Epiphones are very nice guitars. But I would put the Elitists against any Gibson in the catalog and say that it was a dead heat. Okay, they aren't finished in nitrocellulose, but I've seen old nitro finishes (or at least lacquer finishes) that have cracked into a mosaic over the years. Lacquer isn't the end-all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Sentry Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 Elite/Elitist are head and shoulders above the MIK Epiphones. You are right' date=' though. The MIK Epiphones are very nice guitars. But I would put the Elitists against any Gibson in the catalog and say that it was a dead heat. Okay, they aren't finished in nitrocellulose, but I've seen old nitro finishes (or at least [u']lacquer[/u] finishes) that have cracked into a mosaic over the years. Lacquer isn't the end-all. I'm willing to bet a lot of people share this opinion. Which is probably one of the reasons these guitars are getting more difficult to come by... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JefferySmith Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 I'm willing to bet a lot of people share this opinion. Which is probably one of the reasons these guitars are getting more difficult to come by... I sort of liquidated my assets over the past 3 years to snap up the ones that I really' date=' really wanted. The SG was the last link in the chain. Although it isn't an Elitist [i']per se[/i], it is made in the same factory, and that's good enough for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red 333 Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 HA! Gotcha Red! "Plies"... :D Actually I'm pretty sure that the plywood Epi uses on their regular line has mostly lauan layers under the outside layers of maple. You are my favorite editor! Luan "plies" (write 10 times), huh? Wow, they sure get a lot of mileage out of that stuff. That's very interesting. Good to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vince a Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 I've really got GAS for that red Elitist 335 . . . very, very nice . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JefferySmith Posted July 31, 2008 Share Posted July 31, 2008 I've really got GAS for that red Elitist 335 . . . very' date=' very nice . . .[/quote']Yeah, I'm really sorry that Spud posted that pic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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