Epi Les Paul standard better than the Gibson LP studio!

[gibplayer]

 

 

According to this logic' date=' the Gibson Melody Maker is a finer guitar than, say, an Epi Les Paul Custom with SD pups, grover tuners and upgraded electronics.

 

Yeah,right.

 

Maybe the name "Gibson" on the headstock produces a magic tone of some sort that makes even a cheap, paper thin melody maker sound better than a top of the line Epiphone.

 

I try not to let the brand name influence my own, personal evaluation of tone and playability. I own Gibsons and Epiphones, and while I do consider Gibsons to be quality instruments I can find flaws in both Epis and Gibsons if I look hard enough.

 

The bottom line here is simple. Guitars are artistic instruments and the entire subject of tone and playability is subjective and a matter of personal taste. If a poster here believes the Epi sounds better, then the Epi DOES sound better for the particular person, it's a matter of fact, it's his or her call to make and not anybody else's.

 

 

[/quote']

 

I agree. The analogy was poorly thought through.

 

In terms of neighborhoods, where you reside can profoundly affect your quality of life.

 

However, in the world of guitars what really matters is getting the best bang for buck to enable you to do what you need to do. The camp in which you peceive youself to 'live' has minimal effect on your ability to play but, for some individuals, a major effect on their feeling of self worth.

 

Canine, I admire your approach to brand names and to the evaluation of guitars.

[Mr.Nelson]

 

.....

 

Canine' date=' I admire your approach to brand names and to the evaluation of guitars.[/quote']

 

Of course you do because it makes your available choices seem sensible and valid..

 

and my analogy is very accurate because you can extrapolate it in the guitar world to say the lowest model from a high end company is going to possess the general qualities of that particular brand and therefore have higher inherent quality of, at a minimum, materials and finish as opposed to the top end of the low end brand only being the best that brand has to offer.and possessing its particular level quality in materials and finish, in this case crappy plastic finishes and mystery wood....and the wood and finish only doesn't matter if it doesn't matter to you, it is an accepted indication of quality...and it's interesting to note we are comparing the lowest model from Gibson with about the highest model from Epiphone...seems there's price niche overlap at the bottom of Gibson line and top of the Epiphone line and I can't say about the current Melody Makers but I'd venture a guess that twenty years from now the older Melody Makers will have appreciated another 150% and the Epiphone will be worth exactly what a used Epiphone is worth, adjusted for inflation which may increase the price 20% over what a used Epiphone goes for today and that's the reality, cowboy...let's face it. You own Epiphones and you'll do all manner of pretzel logic to make them somehow better..nice try though....better luck next time.

 

 

Mr.Nelson

[gibplayer]

 

However' date=' in the world of guitars what really matters is getting the best bang for buck to enable you to do what you need to do. The camp in which you peceive youself to 'live' has minimal effect on your ability to play but, for some individuals, a major effect on their feeling of self worth.

 

[/quote']

 

Thought I'd better repeat the point I made as it doesn't seem to have registered.

[generation zero]

 

Huh?

 

This is a thread about whether an Epiphone can be better than a Gibson. In a previous post someone said: "Ah yes...one more mindless thread filled with delusional posters in search of elevating a cheap import's status." This poster is implying that an Epiphone ("cheap import") will never sound better than a Gibson.

 

I merely claimed that playing ability is much more crucial to the sound than the brand of the guitar being played. Yes, I think that even a "cheap" instrument can sound better than a great guitar, if the player is better.

 

From the look of it, some people will argue about anything...

 

Yeah, I know what the thread is about, I was just trying to be funny. Picking on your analogy, that's all. Just joking around...

 

Although I was serious about not knowing who mark knopfler is... And I would enjoy the opportunity to play gilmour's rig. Other than that, disregard my other post, the funni3 is gone now. Carry on.

[Mr.Nelson]

 

Thought I'd better repeat the point I made as it doesn't seem to have registered.

 

and you're still trying to make opinions have more weight than accepted business concepts and practices..

 

I don't have any problem with my self-worth but you're still arguing and trying to substantiate and validate yours..

 

Mr.Nelson

[MarxBros]

............... sound better than a top of the line Epiphone.

You infer that a "top of the line Epiphone" denotes something better' date=' it does not unless you're talking Elite. For the cheap imports it's the same crap wood, same thick plastic finish as a bottom of the line Epi. It's just dolled up more.

 

 

 

According to this logic, the Gibson Melody Maker is a finer guitar than, say, an Epi Les Paul Custom with SD pups, grover tuners and upgraded electronics.

Actually yes, it is.

 

Maybe the name "Gibson" on the headstock produces a magic tone of some sort that makes even a cheap' date=' paper thin melody maker sound better than a top of the line Epiphone[/quote']No...but the wood, finish and electronics give it a hell of a advantage over any non Elite import Epi.

[generation zero]

I think the problem with most versions of this debate stem from poor wording. For example, I may say "I like my epi standard better than the Gibson studio I used to own, and I like my fake Gibson better than the epi." Nobody has a right to tell me I'm wrong, because I am just staying my opinion of guitars that I personally own or have owned. However, you will never hear (er... "see") me say "epi standards are better guitars than Gibson studios" or "fake gibsons are great guitars" because both of those statements are rash generalizations, and both are verifiably wrong. I may have just owned a lemon with the Gibson, so I cannot rightfully claim that epis are better, nor do I believe that to be the case. Which one is a better "value" or "investment" is subjective... Both have price based pros and cons. Likewise, when I bought the fake, it was a marginal guitar at best, like most others. I put another 3 or 4 hundred bucks into it to make it a decent guitar, for what I wanted. It's still not worth a penny to most anybody but me, and I'm fine with that.

 

My point is, if you are stating your opinion, that's fine. Just don't try to paint it as fact. And conversely, if someone is obviously stating an opinion, there's no reason to argue with them or insult them for it, just say you disagree and tell why. Then nobody gets upset or offended.

 

Of course, on a side note, I am frequently amused by some of the insults flung both ways, so if it continues, I won't be disappointed either, LOL!

[LHC- Jr.]

Yeah' date=' I know what the thread is about, I was just trying to be funny. Picking on your analogy, that's all. Just joking around...

 

Although I was serious about not knowing who mark knopfler is... And I would enjoy the opportunity to play gilmour's rig. Other than that, disregard my other post, the funni3 is gone now. Carry on.[/quote']

 

Ooops, I guess I was being a bit dense. Sorry! But it does rile me when some of the posters here speak disparagingly about Epiphone guitars. Not because I'm a fanatic about the brand, but because this is a forum where the owners of these guitars can talk about their instruments. Slamming someone's guitar by calling it a "cheap import", as a poster here did, is like telling someone his girlfriend is ugly. There's no reason to do something like that.

 

Back to the debate: When Guitar Player Magazine compared Gibson's Les Paul to Epiphone's, they found that the Epiphone was a very respectable, although inferior, alternative. They further said that with a few mods, one could definitely get 90% of the Gibson sound for a fraction of the Gibson price.

 

I think that's great news, and I'll tell you why. Rock music is dependant on teenagers with ideas, and most of these guys don't have 3 or 4 grand for a guitar. Epiphone makes a nice guitar they can afford, and that is good for the music. When they get their first record contract, they can buy themselves a Gibson, if they want...

 

Gibson on the other hand has raised their prices to such a level that almost no young musician can afford one. It has become a brand for professionals or for doctors and lawyers who want to live out their dreams of yesteryear. I would be willing to bet that a good portion of the expensive guitars Gibson makes are never even played, because 1) many of the doctors and lawyers don't really play; and 2) these guitars were bought as investments. Who is playing a Les Paul 1959 VOS on stage right now? How many of these guitars will ever be used to make great music? Expensive eye-candy for a balding accountant is what these guitars are in most instances.

 

As for Mark Knopfler: If you like good guitar playing, go to youtube and enter "Knopfler Atkins". That brings one to a few videos where Chet Atkins and Mark Knopfler play some acoustic guitar together. If that gets you curious, check out some of the other videos. I really like Knopfler's music, and his playing is fantastic.

[antwhi2001]

Of course they're cheap imports. I think they are quite good cheap imports - hence I've happily bought several and gigged with them. I'd exclude Elitists from that description on the basis of their reputation - I assume you get a nicer class of import, up there with the Tokais and Grecos etc.

 

If you've stripped a few of each down you know that every single component and material in a Gibson is superior quality, without exception. There are also design and construction compromises in the Epi versions, motivated by cost reduction.

 

Build quality and finish is another matter - I've seen a few poorly finished Gibbys in stores over recent years (lacquer runs, sharp fret ends).

[AS90]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[ant7629]

Once again , I think it all comes down to the individual guitar. There are bad Epiphones and there are bad Gibsons out there.

 

And once again, another interesting thread is tainted by the same two members.

[generation zero]

Once again ' date=' I think it all comes down to the individual guitar. There are bad Epiphones and there are bad Gibsons out there.

 

And once again, another interesting thread is tainted by the same two members. [/quote']

 

You mean once again, somebody tried to reword the same tired old Epi vs. Gibson debate, with the same end result? What did you THINK was going to happen?

[freak show]

Try this out:

 

 

 

 

I think Zappa said it best...

[gibplayer]

 

and you're still trying to make opinions have more weight than accepted business concepts and practices..

 

 

And then there are those who try to make their opinions carry more weight than the ultimate business practice of 'value for money sells'.

 

If it makes you feel more important when you've got 10% more for 5 times the price then I'm delighted for you.

[ant7629]

 

You mean once again' date=' somebody tried to reword the same tired old Epi vs. Gibson debate, with the same end result? What did you THINK was going to happen? [/quote']

 

I suppose this thread has appeared before, but it doesn't excuse childish comments made by these members. On almost every thread you can find them making the same anti-epiphone, totally uncalled for comments.

 

I suppose I had just better learn to do what everyone else does and ignore them

[duane v]

 

I suppose this thread has appeared before' date=' but it doesn't excuse childish comments made by these members. On almost every thread you can find them making the same anti-epiphone, totally uncalled for comments.[/quote']

 

 

At the least they cut back on the personal attacks and name calling. But I agree, it's still rude to come in to somebodies house and make fun of their furniture.

 

 

 

I suppose I had just better learn to do what everyone else does and ignore them

 

this has been the best course of action for me.

[Mr.Nelson]

 

this has been the best course of action for me.

 

Hey, Duane...when are we going to see a photo of that '81 Les Paul Custom?

 

Mr.Nelson

[Mr.Nelson]

 

And then there are those who try to make their opinions carry more weight than the ultimate business practice of 'value for money sells'.

 

If it makes you feel more important when you've got 10% more for 5 times the price then I'm delighted for you.

 

By that logic no one should buy a steak at $15 a pound when they can get ground beef for $3 a pound because it's a "better value" (read: cheaper")..,,but if $3 is what you can afford....enjoy your Hamburger Helper,...

 

 

Mr.Nelson

[gibplayer]

Lets run with analogy #2. It warrants consideration, because you've spent a whole day jumping in and out of the thread before you thought this one up. Now...

 

...I can afford that juicy steak and it's 5 times tastier than the ground beef. I could spend another dollar on bread and sauces to make that ground beef taste twice as good but I'm still going to go for the steak.

 

At 5 times the price, the steak gives my tastebuds 5 times the experience. If it only gave my tastebuds an extra 10% worth of pleasure for that 5 times outlay, I'd leave it well alone.

 

If you can't think of another analogy that convinces us that your high end Gibsons are good value for money and nothing to do with helping you to feel important, I've got a better idea. Why not get yourself aggressive, offensive and abusive like you normally do when you can't substantiate your views?

[BlueLesPaul2006]

 

You mean once again' date=' somebody tried to reword the same tired old Epi vs. Gibson debate, with the same end result? What did you THINK was going to happen? [/quote']

 

I understand what you are trying to say but I was not bringing up the Epi vs Gibson debate. I just think the Gibson should have been better than it was. I feel Gibson should give a guitar that is worth the price they ask, and the studio that I played did not live up to the name on the headstock. but your right i knew people would say things like they have been. for these people they just like *****ing at others.

[Mr.Nelson]

Lets run with analogy #2. It warrants consideration' date=' because you've spent a whole day jumping in and out of the thread before you thought this one up. Now...

 

...I can afford that juicy steak and it's 5 times tastier than the ground beef. I could spend another dollar on bread and sauces to make that ground beef taste twice as good but I'm still going to go for the steak.

 

At 5 times the price, the steak gives my tastebuds 5 times the experience. If it only gave my tastebuds an extra 10% worth of pleasure for that 5 times outlay, I'd leave it well alone.

 

If you can't think of another analogy that convinces us that your high end Gibsons are good value for money and nothing to do with helping you to feel important, I've got a better idea. Why not get yourself aggressive, offensive and abusive like you normally do when you can't substantiate your views?[/quote']

Is a cubic zirconium a better value than a real diamond?

 

Just as with Gibson and Epiphone they are two entirely different things except they are similar in APPEARANCE so one is used as a cheaper substitute for the other ...which is the same with Epiphone...Better value? If you can't afford a diamond it's a moot point and it's good if you can find ways to reconcile your financial limitations with yourself.

but... go ahead...try to con a woman with a fake diamond...see where that gets you...

 

 

Is a KIA a better value than a BMW?

 

The KIA is made as cheaply as possible to be sold in price niches below what on outward APPEARANCES

they seem to be. That is, they imitate the higher-priced cars while intrinsically being cheaply made. The BMW is made to a much higher engineering and quality standards using much higher quality materials...go slam the door on a KIA and then slam the door on the BMW..Better value? If you can't afford the BMW again, it's a moot point but you can drive around in your KIA all day and pretend it's whatever you want it to be...

 

 

Is vinyl-veneered particle board furniture a better value than solid wood furniture?

 

Again we have one product intended to imitate the other visually at a distance but when you look close you realize they are two completely different things from two different price and quality ranges. Both are functional but the solid wood will be around many, many years after the particle board disintegrates in some land fill. But each will serve their function but one is made as a cheaper alternative to the other..and some people just enjoy having the nicer things like REAL wood furniture and high quality cars. and pretending isn't enough

 

The problem here is you want to validate your choices so you've equated "cheaper" with "better value".. and simply lowering your personal standards to match your level of available expenditure doesn't create "value"...it creates epiplayer's childish and delusional thinking that if something appears enough like something else and is cheaper it therefore must be a better value. You obviously don't know enough about what makes up inherent quality to make any truly valid assessments about anything. For you the Epiphone is a better value because it's cheaper without any consideration about why it's cheaper.

 

You've read someone's opinion that you get 90% of a Gibson's SOUND (read the article again) for 20% of the cost but you don't get 90% of the Gibson inherent quality of manufacture and quality of materials and component parts. That's where your logic fails you. You can walk through any Wal*Mart and see all the cheap crap that imitates other products..that's the appeal and the game of Wal*Mart and Gibson is using it to sell Epiphones..the reason Wal*Mart is so successful is because it allows those with limited resources to pretend to have a house of stuff that appears to be like the high quality products and is CHEAPER...but unless you're a delusional child, you realize that the only way to sell something cheaper is to make it cheaper which means cheaper materials, cheaper component parts, cheaper labor...as much as you probably wish this wasn't true...you do get what you pay for...and sometimes you have to pay more for the things that are important to you...I've worked long enough and hard enough to afford what I want so I'm not willing to settle for something that just APPEARS to be the good stuff...and anyone who knows the good stuff isn't fooled by the cheap imitation...enjoy your dressed-up hamburger..

 

Mr.Nelson

[Canine]

Christ, you just don't get it!

 

Nobody is here talking about resell value or what wood is finer in terms of furniture building and other properties. We're talking about what the guitar "means" to each one of us. Sorry, but in terms of PERSONAL appreciation, I still take my Epi over my Gibson LP Studio, it sounds better TO ME and that's all I care about. Period. At the end of the day, it'll be ME and not you nor anybody else using that guitar to make the kind of music I WANT TO MAKE.

 

Now, nobody here claims that you can sell the Epi as if it was a Gibson, that'd be fraud and immoral, but when it comes to music and sound, it's just a form of artistic expression and like any other form of art, it's completely subjective in nature.

[Canine]

And when it comes to brand names and the such, I can tell you I don't give a damn if the guitar has Gibson, Epiphone or whatever stamped on the headstock.

 

Now, I also don't care much about what other people think when they seem me grab an Epi instead of that Gibson sitting in the rack. To me, it's about WHAT I WANT, and not what they expect. As long as the sound and music I make is right TO ME, what they think is irrelevant.

 

I don't understand those people who wear a huge NIKE sign on a jacket, maybe they want others to know they have money to afford that brand, maybe they're just proud of it, whatever... but if NIKE or any other company wants me to serve as their walking banner for advertising, they ain't getting that deal for free, that's a fact! lmao

[Mr.Nelson]

Christ' date=' you just don't get it!

 

Nobody is here talking about resell value or what wood is finer in terms of furniture building and other properties. We're talking about what the guitar "means" to each one of us. Sorry, but in terms of PERSONAL appreciation, I still take my Epi over my Gibson LP Studio, it sounds better TO ME and that's all I care about. Period. At the end of the day, it'll be ME and not you nor anybody else using that guitar to make the kind of music I WANT TO MAKE.

 

Now, nobody here claims that you can sell the Epi as if it was a Gibson, that'd be fraud and immoral, but when it comes to music and sound, it's just a form of artistic expression and like any other form of art, it's completely subjective in nature.

 

[/quote']

 

Well, if it's only about personal opinion then state it as such and don't say "Epiphone IS a better value than a Gibson" without that qualification because it sounds silly..the fact is "an Epiphone is made to appear like a Gibson while using cheaper materials and labor and thus is priced cheaper" there is not a single other area where you can make a distinct one to one comparison.. As I said, cheaper doesn't equate to being a better value...your statement of personal appreciation is your entitled prerogative and completely balid as such ...you're correct...the actual making of the personal choice is all subjective but the materials and manufacture of the two brands can be objectively and empirically evaluated and in that light they are unquestionably different...and brand names are indicative of that inherent quality so if you think they don't matter, maybe it's you who's operating on a faulty premise....it's funny because it's always the people who own the lower-cost brands who say that brand name doesn't matter and doesn't mean anything...and no, I don't pay to advertise anyone's products...not even Gibson...but if they want to send me a tee-shirt with their name, I'l wear it to work in the yard or something...

 

Mr.Nelson

[gibplayer]

 

The usual blah blah

 

 

It's not about appearance or the cost of the woods used. It's about functionality for what 99% of owners need from their guitars. We're not all paupers who are beneath you as you seem to think. Many of us have Gibsons as well as Epiphones. We just happen to think that Epiphone make great guitars for the money.

 

Read the thread. You just can't see this but nobody ever said that Gibsons weren't, on the whole, better. The high end ones, in particular, are just not worth their extortionate price for that bit extra that they give you over the equivalent Epi. What people are saying in this thread is that they are often disappointed with what you get for that significant extra outlay. They expect to pick the Gibby up and be blown away. The fact is when you play them there just ain't that much in it, especially if you're prepared to make pickup and electronics upgrades.

 

Gibson are charging these prices based upon the history of the name, the place where they're made and, to an extent, the extra cost of the materials/processes used. If you want to talk about paying extra for looks this is again, an area where Gibson offers poor value for money. Sure, a full nitro finished Les Paul or SG with all the binding and MOP looks nice and is more costly to produce but it's definitely a rip off compared to the equally functional poly/plastic option from Epi.

 

So, if you're like Canine and don't care about the name on the headstock because you don't need it to make you feel important..........then walk out of the store with the guitar that sounds and feels best to you and gives you good value for money.

 

You almost had a valid point when you said the melody maker would be better than the upgraded Epi custom. It really would depend on what you wanted out of the guitar. However, as usual, you went totally the wrong way about it just to stir things up. You won't rest until everbody concurs with your view point.

 

We all understand what you're saying. The problem is that you can't appreciate what we're saying.