Who should the quality really be blamed on?

[JefferySmith]

Harpboy said:

__________

I think we guitar buyers are some of the most gullible, self-delusional consumers out there. We talk about tonewoods, and finishes, and jangle and crunch as if these are absolutes. I frankly think we're just parrotting a bunch of marketing buzz phrases. There are multi thousand dollar guitars made of acrylic, for crying out loud, and nobody says that the tone sucks. I owned a Ric 330 until I sold it last year. I used to go on the Ric forums and was nausious with all the talk about the jangle that only a Ric will give you. I can get the exact same jangle with any number of guitars built somewhat the same. We're a bunch of whiny marketing groupies, is what I think.

__________

 

Tonewood doesn't mean much when there is a heavy layer of plastic covering it.

 

I've been able to resist the buzz junk. Those of us who played electrics in the 1960's (and couldn't affort anything over $100) know just how bad a cheap guitar can be. Today's cheaper Epiphones (even the Chinese ones) are better than the entry-level electrics that were out there 45 years ago. And taking inflation into account, today's Epiphones are more bang for the buck. I think what we are seeing here is a gradual degradation of quality to the point that Epi lovers are willing to look elsewhere. Like PRS SE guitars, Korean Washburns, and the cheaper line of Gretsches.

[BluezOldy]

I don't know about this whole thread in general.... I like to keep it simple

 

you see a guitar' date=' you play it........ you like it, you buy it..... You don't like it, find one you'll like.

 

Buy a used guitar on EBAY or new through the internet, better keep your fingers crossed.[/quote']

 

That's true, Duane, however I think the steep price hikes with Epi (and others) have probably made us more aware of minor things, in say, QC that we may have previously overlooked. That and the quality highly competitive products now available from other companies in what was basically the almost exclusive Epi/Squier segment of the market.

[duane v]

For me price is something that is looked at last..... Where (geographically speaking) the guitar is built is what I look for first before even considering a purchase.

 

I don't expect a guitar to be perfect, not even a brand new Gibson. However, that doesn't mean I don't have a certain level of expectation. I have a specified criteria a new guitar is supposed to meet, and if it doesn't meet it, I just put it back on the wall and try something else.... If I purchase a guitar new off the internet and it falls short, I'll either call the establishment I purchased it from, or the manufactures customer service.

[charlie brown]

Yeah, maybe "Blame" is not what needs to be addressed (there's plenty of that, to go around), as much as HOW to fix it...both the "offending" instrument (in the short term), and/or the situation we're all concerned with, in general (in the long term)? In the case of in hand purchases, obviously you won't (wittingly) buy an instrument that doesn't meet your expectations...or, most of them, anyway. In the case of "On-line" or mail order...it's a bit different, but your recourse is the same...send it back, complain respectfully, and stick with it, until you're satisfied. But, as has been mentioned, time and again, WE have to be a lot more "proactive" in the equation, and not just accept things as "the way it is, nowadays" unless of course, that's how you want it to be/remain. Gibson, Epiphone, or any other manufacturer is going to try different things, models, ideas, some of which we'll like/love, other's we won't.

We'll buy the "good" stuff, and resist the other, for the most part. Sales, and dollars made (or lost) will speak volumes higher than any "*****ing" we do here. As much fun as it is, to "*****" now and then, it's really pointless...unless there's actions to back it up.

 

CB

[duane v]

CB

 

Any sensible person has to believe that Gibson/Epi is not in the business to build guitars with quality issues. And it's quite obvious if there is a quality issue with an Epi made guitar, it doesn't take a phi-beta-kappa to know where the blame should be placed.

 

This is why companies have Customer Service segments to address quality issues with their customers...... And try to remember that customer service is primarily a reactive function, not proactive.

[JefferySmith]

My buying days are over. I'm glad that I bought what I did while they were still being made in Japan and Korea. And I regret only a few purchases (gave them both to my church). I doubt that Epiphone can reverse course right now.

[charlie brown]

CB

 

Any sensible person has to believe that Gibson/Epi is not in the business to build guitars with quality issues. And it's quite obvious if there is a quality issue with an Epi made guitar' date=' it doesn't take a phi-beta-kappa to know where the blame should be placed.

 

This is why companies have Customer Service segments to address quality issues with their customers...... And try to remember that customer service is primarily a reactive function, not proactive.[/quote']

 

Agreed. And yet, IF you believe what we hear, here...it would seem Epiphone/China, doesn't follow that

thinking? You're right, about CS...I worked in CS for years! But, you do get pretty "pro-active" when it's you

being yelled at, by the customers, all day long! As I said, a long time ago, what we hear about, here...isn't

necessarily indicative of the overall quality, of the majority of product(s). There are, some issues, at least

with those people that have had negative experiences, but...maybe (probably, even) it's still in the minority.

I hope so, at least. Besides, some of it happens in the best of companies, and...always has. No excuse...just a fact.

Best we can do, is stay on top of it, and refuse to accept (buy), less than as near perfect, as can realistically

be expected.

 

CB

[wiggy]

One thing I don't get in all this is difference in things such as the finish in the control and pup cavities between say Epi, Gibson, Fender, PRS, et all.

 

Every one of these guitars from the bottom of the range to the top (I'm not talling about the one off specials obviously) are routed using a cnc router so we're not talking about the mystical skills of some luthier buried in a workshop in the backwoods. If the router is programmed correctly and the bits are sharp and correctly set then the holes should be clean and sharp. Fit also should be to the mm/thou with no rough finish. So why the difference?

 

Please don't give me the US worker is more skilled line (I'm NOT knocking you US guys BTW cos the same applies to UK/European/Australian/Etc workers) as I'd guarantee that any Chinese worker with equal experience will be as good or as bad (actually in the case of UK in the 70's I'd put my money on a badly trained, short sighted wilderbeest to match the quality but that's another matter!) as one from anywhere else on the planet.

 

So why is Epiphone apparently falling behind?

 

BTW I drive a '95 Ranger Rover so I know all about wayward QC and build quality issues in a 'premium brand' - believe me in comparison Epiphone make Rolls Royce look slapdash!!

[charlie brown]

One thing I don't get in all this is difference in things such as the finish in the control and pup cavities between say Epi' date=' Gibson, Fender, PRS, et all.

 

Every one of these guitars from the bottom of the range to the top (I'm not talling about the one off specials obviously) are routed using a cnc router so we're not talking about the mystical skills of some luthier buried in a workshop in the backwoods. If the router is programmed correctly and the bits are sharp and correctly set then the holes should be clean and sharp. Fit also should be to the mm/thou with no rough finish. So why the difference?

 

Please don't give me the US worker is more skilled line (I'm NOT knocking you US guys BTW cos the same applies to UK/European/Australian/Etc workers) as I'd guarantee that any Chinese worker with equal experience will be as good or as bad (actually in the case of UK in the 70's I'd put my money on a badly trained, short sighted wilderbeest to match the quality but that's another matter!) as one from anywhere else on the planet.

 

So why is Epiphone apparently falling behind? [/quote']

 

Are they (really), or is it just a perception we have, based on what's discussed here? "Misery loves company,"

and all that. I (honestly) don't know that Epi IS "falling behind." I've seen Gibson, and other "high dollar"

products, that shouldn't have made it out the factory door, but did. It happens. Dealers, should send them

back, and customers (for sure) shouldn't buy it. Besides, Epiphone is a middle to lower nitch market, not

the high end Gibson/Gretsch/Martin/Rickenbacker or Boutique maker's nitch market. There might/will be

some "crossover," obviously...but "expectations" can get a bit skewed, in both directions, too. So...???

 

CB

[duane v]

 

Dealers' date=' should send them

back,

 

 

 

CB[/quote']

 

Talk about a million dollar statement=d> ...... One has to wonder if some dealers even open the boxes to inspect them.... And as we all know too well, couriers aren't always kind to shipments.

[BluezOldy]

...BTW I drive a '95 Ranger Rover so I know all about wayward QC and build quality issues in a 'premium brand' - believe me in comparison Epiphone make Rolls Royce look slapdash!!

 

 

That brings back memories: I've owned five Rangies bought new and the amount of time they spent in the workshop makes me shudder to remember. The first 12 to 24 months for each was spent ironing out problems, mostly major like gearboxes, that shouldn't have been there in the first place.

 

But there's nothing like owning and driving a Range Rover ...

[Guest icantbuyafender]

 

Interesting...

 

I was just looking at some brand new Epis at the Sweetwater site. Here are a couple of 'back of headstocks' shots:

 

 

 

Dot

 

Do you see what I see....?

 

I see an off centered excuse of a headstock. look at the curvature to the left and right....

 

is this lack of USA inspection and setup the new fad with epiphone?

 

if so i lucked out in getting my newest epi (dot studio) while it still got the USA inspection... or so its sticker says.

 

meh, thts the only guitar i have made past 03

[BluezOldy]

 

Talk about a million dollar statement=d> ...... One has to wonder if some dealers even open the boxes to inspect them.... And as we all know too well' date=' couriers aren't always kind to shipments.[/quote']

 

I've bought two Epis over the 'Net from authorised dealers and there is no way they had been taken out of the box by either the Aussie distributor nor the dealer.

 

Luckily they were both flawless in finish and playability (one Chinese & one Korean). However I never buy now without and inspection and testing.

[charlie brown]

Well, anything that's hand carved, will have some degree of inconsistency. And, in that photo,

the left side is in shadow, emphasizing the curvature...so, It may not be as off, as it looks?

 

CB

[Muskank Sally]

Guitar no. 1 is 'Made In Indonesia' so it is a Samick build.

Guitars number 2 & 3 are Daewon built Epiphones.

These are easily spotted by the 'inspected by gabor' round sticker with usually scribble in it.

Another way to spot a Daewon is that from the back the tuners always look crooked.

 

 

Interesting...

 

I was just looking at some brand new Epis at the Sweetwater site. Here are a couple of 'back of headstocks' shots:

 

G-400

 

Les Paul Standard

 

Dot

 

Do you see what I see....?

[Guest icantbuyafender]

glad i do not own a korean.....

 

no racial statement intended

[Dave]

I think that the bottom line is that we all need to look at the mom and pop shops before we buy mail order. Sometimes it's worth a 60-80 mile drive to GC just to see if there's one there that is a "cherry". If I don't find what I want, I'll go the online route.

 

As I said previously, corporations closely monitor "returns and allowances" to determine quality. Most of the defects we talk about are in fit and finish. There was one neck joint posted here that should have never made it off the assembly floor, but the common defects are fixable by a music shop luthier or at least a tech that can do a fret dressing, adjust the truss rod, and intonate. Finish flaws should be replaced by the supplier, who sends it back to the factory.

 

All of these can be worked out best by dealing locally. I really like dealing one on one with the local dealer. I hate talking to customer service who will just issue an RMA and send you the next box on the shelf.

[gus²]

my epiphone dot was made in 2006 and there´s the "inspected e set up in usa by 16" sticker in it, but, i don´t know, it´s just a sticker...i´ve notice a notable mistake in my guitar, see in the headstock there´s the epiphone symbol right in the middle, well it´s supposed to be in the middle but it´s quite bended to the left..that´s some kind of mistake that wouldn´t exist if it was made in the US..but to me it doesn´t make any difference

 

[JefferySmith]

glad i do not own a korean.....

 

no racial statement intended

You've heard that they aren't good?

[mgrmatt]

Gibson has certain QC standards in place now at there Epi plants and they absoloutely will not change unless it becomes an issue with sales. I am not bashing Gibson Epi, I love Epiphones because they allow me to have a varity of instruments at my disposal without taking out a second mortgage. With all of that said nothing will change as long as we keep lining up to buy the current product.It would be interesting to know how there inspectors are trained what they look for, what makes a guitar a second or used inventory.

Another thing that is getting harder is where to find quality Epiphone, I agree with people that say the mom and pop store is the way to go. I don't like buying online because all they are doing is shuffling boxes and I have begun to be leary of the retail chains.I was in my local GC this week and the first three Epiphones that I picked up had damage from being dropped.

Jusy my opinion but Gibson is responsible for the QC but we the consumer can have an effect on it.

 

 

Matt

[Steven Lister]

Just my opinion but Gibson is responsible for the QC but we the consumer can have an effect on it.

Horsefeathers. Companies spend trillions of $$ training you to think this way. But in modern society' date=' it's a DEAD idea.

 

Think about it for a second..., when have you ever been able to achieve widescale success against any big provider of goods or services in your lifetime? Telephone company, banker, car maker, General Electric, general whoever, they all screw you/us on a regular basis and, AND AT BEST you will be placated with a repair/exchange/refund and go away.

[u']But your discontent has no impact upon how BIG BROTHERs do business.[/u]

 

Over-population is the reason why. They don't need you. A billion other consumers are lined up, so if you don't like it, move on. Feeling like a number yet?

 

Hit every BLUE NOTE baaaby..., I'm going to play on:-"

[Steven Lister]

Take a close look at this piece of crap: multi-pieced together neck, crooked tuners, mis-shaped head..., and this is only the neck/headstock view. Imagine what else is wrong. :-

Now, I wouldn't touch this loser. But, it will be sold to someone. Hell, Sweetwater is sure enough of a sale -- it has posted actual photos of this stick of firewood (instead of a different guitar like most web sellers would do).

 

Hit every BLUE NOTE baaaby..., I'm going to play on:-"

[mgrmatt]

I guess I can agree with you on the fact that they don't really care. Another problem that the guitar buying public has too is that any other brand in the same price range is going to have the same crappy QC.Do you not think though in a bad economy, in a year in which they have raised prices on most models between $75-$100 that the declining QC won't have an impact on Epi sales? Just a thought...

 

 

Matt

[AyushPresley]

Talking about quality, I have had my Epiphone Plus top for about 3 months now but had never plugged it in..Basically I had no time at all as it was the end of semester and jobs and stuff and most of all I hadn't bought an amp yet..and last week I got an amp, a processor, changed the strings and finally plugged it in and to find out the pickup selector was wired the opposite way and the bridge pickup was dead ! I didn't have time to check it out at the store as well so I just went off with it..oh yes, this one I found out after i bought it, that the back plastic plates were opposite as well..The plastic covering was inside and the rough part one was outside...anyway I have an warranty to clear things up but whats with the QC ?? are they dozing off !!:- zzzzzz !!

[meursalt]

I blame the USA inspectors. #26, for instance, is clearly incompetent or at least tone deaf. When I got my "1958" Gothic Explorer Hardtail (I hate the name, but love the instrument), it came with a little checklist attached to the neck, which explicitly stated that intonation had been set up. But the intonation was way off: so far off, in fact, that was unfixable with the stock string gauge without flipping a saddle or two. The neck relief wasn't too far out of whack, so I don't think climate change was the culprit. It was almost as if they had intonated the guitar with one string gauge, then, for the "new strings" inspection checklist item, had changed to a different gauge.

 

I naturally expect to do some initial setup on a new instrument, especially a budget instrument like this. I don't necessarily expect perfect intonation out of the box. But it kind of bothered me that some guy apparently went through the motions of pretending to check the intonation and signed off on it, without actually doing the work. It reflects poorly on the company, and bodes ill for the overall quality of the instrument, since such a relatively simple part of the inspection was botched.

 

That said, after a little setup work, I love this guitar, and have had no serious problems. But why bother to say that it's been intonated in the USA, when it clearly hasn't? I don't get it. If I purchase another Chinese instrument, I will probably go with a lesser-known brand like Agile, Spencer, or Xaviere, since then I know that I am paying for the instrument, rather than the brand name on the headstock. If I buy another Gibson/Epiphone (which I probably will one day), it will be a USA-made Gibson, and I probably won't go mail-order in that case because I will be risking more money.

 

-meursalt