J45 lowered action/lost tone

[passthej45]

so anyway I took my 2009 J45 Standard to have a basic set up done. Told the luthier it was "ok" to lower the action a little bit , but it wasn't really an issue with me as I mostly strum "big" and open chords and don't need any slinky playability. When I got my axe back, the action was a bit lower, but it seemed to have lost some of it's omph, or thump or chunk or thickness I don't quite know how to describe it. Now the guy did replace the strings with Martin Sp 80/20. I ususally use Elixir lights and have been happy with them. Now it almost feels as though I could go to Mediums. Would that screw up the "set up" . Any thought and opinions would be welcome. Thanks

[Versatile]

Lots of people leave the set-up to the tech's judgement

And then find it not quite to taste

Which gauge of Martins are on now?

And ask him whether the truss rod was adjusted

I think those Elixirs you quoted are 12's so

That is a benchmark to guide you.

[passthej45]

Lots of people leave the set-up to the tech's judgement

And then find it not quite to taste

Which gauge of Martins are on now?

And ask him whether the truss rod was adjusted

I think those Elixirs you quoted are 12's so

That is a benchmark to guide you.

The string gauge turns out to be the same.........so I'll change back to my usual strings before I start to panic or anything. Won't be able to start experimenting for a few days though , due to work requirements.

[Rambler]

Higher action = better string vibration. I took in an AJ with a new saddle with super low action. Meh for tone. Put the original saddle back in, it woke up. Same strings. It bloomed more.

 

Here's Gibson's take on it, appropos electrics at http://www.gibson.com/en-us/Lifestyle/Features/tone-tips-901/

[albertjohn]

Higher action = better string vibration. I took in an AJ with a new saddle with super low action. Meh for tone. Put the original saddle back in, it woke up. Same strings. It bloomed more.

 

Here's Gibson's take on it, appropos electrics at http://www.gibson.com/en-us/Lifestyle/Features/tone-tips-901/

 

Got to agree with this. I recently had my SWD tweaked which resulted in a very slightly higher action and improved tone. Personally, I prefer the action higher than the minimum it will stand, if the alternative is a loss of tone.

[suburude63]

High action ! Loud and full ! Low action diminishes the tone and volume. Ask any Bluegrass picker.

[drathbun]

One of the things that happens when you lower action on an acoustic is you lose break angle over the saddle to the pins. This diminishes tone. As a guitar ages and the neck starts to sink into the body, you have to lower the saddle to maintain the same action but you lose tone in the equation because of the shallower break angle. One of the solutions short of a neck reset is to cut string ramps into the bridge ahead of the pins to increase the break angle over the saddle. I'm not saying your guitar needs a neck reset (running a straight edge along the fretboard to see where it lines up with the bridge will determine that) but certainly a taller saddle helps tone.

 

String Ramps

[RASHARU]

I'm afraid that we're confusing fretboard string height (playability near the 12th fret) with the actual saddle height. Yes, they are directly related but the "playability" or "action" should not affect the guitar's tone. However, the height of the saddle definitely will. IMHO, you always want your finished saddle to remain as high above the bridge as possible (for good tone) while still striking a good balance with your overall string height. This can sometimes be manipulated through truss rod tweaks & lowering the nut slots. That's why setting up an acoustic guitar is truly an art form.

 

I'll also add that some acoustic brands are much more suited for lower, slinky action than others. Taylors, for example, are known for their perfect neck-set angles & can easily be adjusted to play very low & fast .. thus making them a very good choice for fingerstyle "jazzy" type players. I've personally noticed that the Gibby neck-set angles are designed more for the "strummer" type musician, which would prefer a higher action with a booming tone & response.

 

A good guitar set-up is priceless, but like Mick said .. "You can't always get what you want". Yes, it's truly an art form (short of a neck re-set!).

 

One more critical observation. When I cut my new saddle for my J45, I noticed that Gibby had drilled two holes in my saddle slot (for future pickups?) that left a very slight "bump" at the extreme outer edges. These bumps were obstructing my new saddle from sitting flush & flat. I had the choice of either milling them out or altering my saddle. I chose to sand a tiny relief step on each end of my saddle. My new saddle then sat flush & flat and sounded incredible. Maximum string vibration is the key to good tone, again IMHO.

[rar]

... running a straight edge along the fretboard to see where it lines up with the bridge will determine [whether the guitar needs a neck reset]...

 

"... provided the arch in the top is within bounds"

 

I know you know that. But a not-insignificant number of folks wander into repair shops thinking they need a neck reset -- or, maybe worse yet, complain in an on-line guitar forum about some builder's shoddy construction or poor quality control -- after their guitar failed the Straightedge Test, when the actual problem is gross over-humidification (or a loose top brace or ...). I figure it never hurts to mention that the test assumes the guitar has been properly maintained and is structurally sound, so as not to mislead the less experienced reader.

 

-- Bob R

[RASHARU]

"... provided the arch in the top is within bounds"

 

I know you know that. But a not-insignificant number of folks wander into repair shops thinking they need a neck reset -- or, maybe worse yet, complain in an on-line guitar forum about some builder's shoddy construction or poor quality control -- after their guitar failed the Straightedge Test, when the actual problem is gross over-humidification (or a loose top brace or ...)

 

-- Bob R

 

YES! Very good point indeed. That would explain why OCCASSIONALLY you will run across a relatively in-expensive guitar (ie: Martin HPL) that has a perfect low & fast string action with NO buzzes. Those laminates are built like a tank & they don't vary much over time/climate changes.

[drathbun]

"... provided the arch in the top is within bounds"

 

I know you know that. But a not-insignificant number of folks wander into repair shops thinking they need a neck reset -- or, maybe worse yet, complain in an on-line guitar forum about some builder's shoddy construction or poor quality control -- after their guitar failed the Straightedge Test, when the actual problem is gross over-humidification (or a loose top brace or ...). I figure it never hurts to mention that the test assumes the guitar has been properly maintained and is structurally sound, so as not to mislead the less experienced reader.

 

-- Bob R

 

Absolutely. Good point Bob!

[EuroAussie]

I would say its the strings. 80/20's are naturally bright and I reckon this would impacdt the tone, making is somewhat lighter and brighter.

[EuroAussie]

I would say its the strings. 80/20's are naturally bright and I reckon this would impacdt the tone, making is somewhat lighter and brighter.

[Hall]

Higher action = better string vibration. I took in an AJ with a new saddle with super low action. Meh for tone. Put the original saddle back in, it woke up. Same strings. It bloomed more.

 

Here's Gibson's take on it, appropos electrics at http://www.gibson.com/en-us/Lifestyle/Features/tone-tips-901/

 

 

+1

[davenumber2]

(running a straight edge along the fretboard to see where it lines up with the bridge will determine that

String Ramps

 

This test doesn't take into account the thickness of the bridge so it is not the end all be all but can be a good guide.

[zombywoof]

I think with older guitars you need to really drive the top to get the most out of them they have to give. I am not so sure this is the case with more modern guitars as they are designed to give you maximum top flutter with lighter guage strings and a lower action.

 

Anyway, I will go to my grave swearing my guitars ring longer with a higher action. Bt I also think the greatest impact of high or lower action on sound is playing style. I keep my action up because I ain't exactly got what you would call a light touch. I prefer the higher action because if I ain't got it I am dealing with strings buzzing and fretting out. If I wanted a lower action I would have to adjust my playing to style to accomodate it.