charlie brown Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 When I was first playing, and singing "Rock & Roll," we had great old "Elvis" mic's, and the long necked Electrovoice chrome mic's, that allowed one to use dynamics, by however close you were, to the mic. The more "modern" mic's now, seem to have one volume, and you have to be touching it, to achieve that, whereas before, optimum tone and clean volume was about 4 inches back, from the mic itself. If you needed a bit more volume, you got closer, and if you wanted to compensate, for an upcoming loud passage, you would pull the mic back, for that dynamic. But, now, when you do that, the volume falls off a lot more dramatically. What I'm wondering, from our vocalist experts, out there, is what is the best mic, nowadays, to achiveing that "old style" dynamice response? And, also being able to sing off axis, as when two people are singing harmonies, in one mic, etc.? CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riffster Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 I do not sing as I have enough of a hard time playing guitar well but wonder the same thing. I have an SM57 and while the suggested placement is 4" to 6" I see how a lot of artists sing right on it. Is it so you have to turn the volume less and avoid feedback? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted February 25, 2011 Author Share Posted February 25, 2011 Possibly, but what I noticed first, when using the newer mic's, (once I started playing/singing again, after 30 years), was the dramatic drop off, in volume, with just a small distance, from the actual mic, itself. Which doesn't (seem to) allow, for the kind of back and forth movement dynamics, as much as with previous, older mic's. I get omni and uni directional, but...I'm not sure I like having to be right up against the mic, itself, to get any volume. Any "sound" folks, here? By the way, we're using Shure Beta 57 & 58's, as well as Sennheiser E-845's. CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 oops double post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 It has to do with the cardioid shape of the input/frequency range of specific microphones. They are designed to have a very focused input area to reduce feedback. You will get less of this with a omni-directional mic but on stages with loud monitors you will get more feedback and more bleed from the other instruments on the stage. I believe a lot of the old microphones you are talking about were also condenser mics that are powered (usually some form of phantom power), usually have a pretty large diaphragm are louder and have a broader frequency range. These are great in the studio especially for vocals and acoustics and are usually used in an isolation booth or used with headphones. For live sound, dynamic microphones are more the norm for the reasons mentioned above. For home recording and vocals go with a condenser for live go with a dynamic and look at the specs of the cardioid pattern. You might find something that is a little wider and the accents of a certain frequency range that better suits you. Shure is a good resource to look at the specs and shapes. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy R Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 You can also overcome a lot of this by using a good compressor/gate that way you can control the dynamics of the microphone level.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WahKeen Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 It's El Niño's fault.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dub-T-123 Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 I sing into an SM57 also and I have to be all over that thing to get it to sound right. I want one of these http://www.placidaudio.com/the-copperphone/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surfpup Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Yeah, what Andy said! Most stage mics are dynamic and you do have to get pretty close. Most also have the cardioid pattern. You can "share" them from the side, but you are gonna be close to kissin'! Condensers, however, have more range into the room/stage area. Not good for stage generally due to feedback issues. The obvious exception being bluegrass where condensers works pretty well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duane v Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 When I was first playing, and singing "Rock & Roll," we had great old "Elvis" mic's, and the long necked Electrovoice chrome mic's, that allowed one to use dynamics, by however close you were, to the mic. The more "modern" mic's now, seem to have one volume, and you have to be touching it, to achieve that, whereas before, optimum tone and clean volume was about 4 inches back, from the mic itself. If you needed a bit more volume, you got closer, and if you wanted to compensate, for an upcoming loud passage, you would pull the mic back, for that dynamic. But, now, when you do that, the volume falls off a lot more dramatically. What I'm wondering, from our vocalist experts, out there, is what is the best mic, nowadays, to achiveing that "old style" dynamice response? And, also being able to sing off axis, as when two people are singing harmonies, in one mic, etc.? CB Man I thought it was just me but the newer Shure mics I purchased recently have that issue.... I did a couple of live recordings and I found that the vocals never stayed in one place... Sometimes I can hear the vocals good then they would get lost in my guitar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilpanda Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 I dont really know, its just been something Ive been doing since day 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted February 26, 2011 Author Share Posted February 26, 2011 Man I thought it was just me but the newer Shure mics I purchased recently have that issue.... I did a couple of live recordings and I found that the vocals never stayed in one place... Sometimes I can hear the vocals good then they would get lost in my guitar Well, I'm glad I'm not the only one, that's noticed it. Thanks, for the responses, guys. It's kind of a "hassle" in a way, because I'm not the "lead vocalist" most of the time, and am not "comfortable," eating the mic, even when I am the "singer," on a particular song. As Duane just mentioned, vocal volumes are all over the place, during a performance, because of this mic issue. I think it's (somewhat) less an issue, when hand-held, than being on a stand...Maybe?! But, man, you move just a little bit back, and you lose a LOT of volume. I'm also aware, that part of it, is being used to, what used to be the "norm," as opposed to what exists, now...that way. Younger players/singers probably didn't give it much thought, as they're used to how those mic's react, nowadays. But, when a 3-4" space was optimum, before...and now having to eat it, just to get that same volume. Doesn't leave much room to play with. It's just one more reason, I'm trying to stress "Dynamics" instrumentally, too...so one doesn't have to run the PA at near "feedback" levels, just to even hear, the vocals. "Rock" IS meant to be "Loud," to a certain extent. BUT, it needs to be dynamic, as well...IMHO. CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riffster Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 There is also the fact that there are dynamic microphones optimized for voice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted February 26, 2011 Author Share Posted February 26, 2011 There is also the fact that there are dynamic microphones optimized for voice. But...wouldn't you think, as a manufacturer, they'd realize that not all vocals will be done from a stationary position, especially, in a stage performance mode, and there would need to be somewhat more, of a decent area, of "optimum" tone/volume? ;>b CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TommyK Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Not sure if this is your issue, but you mentioned that hand held is less of a problem than a stand mic. I've noticed a lot of professional entertainers and speech makers don't know how to work around a stand mic. When using a hand held mic, if you look left the natural tendency is to move your mic left. When using a stand mic, if you look left, or right for that matter, the mic sweet spot is at your cheek or ear. If the mic has a small sweet spot, your vocal volume drops off. If you want to look left, rotate your body right as if you were connected to the mic with a short leash. Always have the mic just below your nose. You have to move around the mic. Also, make sure you adjust the stand height, for you after the last guy gets done with it. The mic should, ideally be pointed at your uvula. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted February 26, 2011 Author Share Posted February 26, 2011 Thanks, Tommy...any helpful input, is appreciated. We do try to keep things at our proper height level, etc., as we all have our own mic. I guess, the tendency (for me, at least) is, that because I'm playing, as well as singing, most of the time, and having to "eat the mic" while doing that, is distracting and uncomfortable, in some small fashion. We use mini-boom stands, so it's not that the guitars get too close to the upright part of the stand. I guess, it's just that needing to be so close, to the mouthpiece, and how much it drops off, volume wise, if you're not, is "my" problem. And, maybe, that's it...it's just "my" problem, with them??? I don't think so, though, as I've heard my band mates, and others mention (or even complain) about it, as well. The reason I mentioned the "hand-held" thing, was that singers, who aren't playing an instrument, at the same time, can control, willingly, how close they hold the mic, and actually use that "back and forth" dynamic, for volume...creatively. On a stand, while playing, is more difficult...at least for me. ;>b So, maybe the real question is, IS there a better mic, for stand applications, than ones that work best, for "hand-held?" It may be, too, that "close quarters," as in bars, or small (club) stages, are the real culprits, due to easier "feedback," situation, in those tight quarters. But, in that case, are there "better" mic's, for those situations, too? Not brands, as much as type, if you know what I mean? Say "uni" for hand held, and "omni," for stands, maybe? Thanks, all, for your help...and patience. (Smile) CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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