Lungimsam Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Seems like they arent necessarily going for beauty. Is complexity treasured above melody? As a separate art form, was it meant to be that way? I'm not as interested in the " beauty of the beholder" explanation as I am interested in understanding the purpose of jazz. Thanks for any enlightenment. And I am in no way putting jazz down. Those cats are the most amazing musicians to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lungimsam Posted March 14, 2011 Author Share Posted March 14, 2011 Sorry for the treble post. My iMagnet is driving me nuts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brundaddy Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Depends on who's playing and who's listening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 If the terms "rock" and "blues" are perhaps overbroad, "jazz" almost certainly is even moreso. The foundation concept was figure a song, do it in a given key, and folks would play along with heavy possibility for improvisation. But then... so is blues. So can be rock. Swing. Actually... ditto country and bluegrass and all sorts of American music. Listen to some old Louis Armstrong records and you don't hear what you heard in the 1950s jazz clubs, Charlie Parker, Miles Davis, Dizzy Gillespie, and on guitar, such as Barney Kessel and Herb Ellis and Mundell Lowe... The fat chords of a pedal steel? Songs written by Willie Nelson or Bob Wills? I personally think that nowadays "jazz" almost is a synonym for "American music." And personally, I object to only stuff that you can't whistle or dance to being called "jazz," because the original stuff pretty much was dance music that embarrassed a lotta parents and... Hmmm. Sound like Rock? American music has always been a melting pot. Note bending wasn't unique to various African cultures as mixed in America. Nor were "blue notes" as found in rock and blues and ... Hmmmm. "Jazz." But the instrumentation tended to be what was available. Fiddles, guitars, trumpets and trombones, a clarinet and a sax... It's mixed English and African and Scots, Irish and Jewish traditions (note how we tend to forget how many top creative musicians have been Jewish?); cowboys and country girls and brothels selling illegal booze, ragtime and blues... Toss in some Cajun and a bit of Mexican and let it all steam a bit on the back of the stove. Send the concept overseas and watch how it returns a bit different and then again mixed back into the stew of American and increasingly, what one might consider true "world" music. Jazz. It's "folk" and it's commercial; written and unwritten; changed and unchanging. I don't think I helped you much on asking if it's meant to be pretty or heady. The best answer perhaps is "yes." Some will be enjoyed mostly by a certain tiny fan base supporting experimental music... ...and some will take Broadway musical tunes and do ... something. So... yeah... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retrosurfer1959 Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Depends on what you meant by heady? Jazz is plagued the same way classical music and opera is by specific groups of people who think it needs to be deconstructed as art rather than music which is unfortunate in my opinion. Jazz is a pure form of music that can be completely immersive if you allow it, so yeah I think it's first and foremost art for the ears so that makes it pretty it's also very complex which makes it great brain food music to study and try to understand if it's being done for the love of music and learning the Genre. If it's for pretentious wieners to sit around and deconstruct in there imitation wool beret's drinking white whine spritzers and microbreweries newest trends while they try to impress each other and a few homely girls with hairy underarms well then it's just really sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Versatile Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Very interesting topic.... A few personal and not unconnected thoughts.... IMO the first 'jazz' of any note grew from Delta(etc) Blues from 1900 on, somehow incorporating Ragtime And gave rise to King Oliver and Louis Armstrong around New Orleans in the 20's Wind instruments and simple percussion The first 'jazz bass' was a Tuba IMO again the key to jazz is rhythm...danceable tunes being 'adjusted' for extra spice and excitement Forward through Swing, The Duke etc to Be-Bop, for me a largely failed attempt to revolutionise harmonic improvisation for the general listening public... Then the Bopper Miles Davis co-invented Jazz/Rock Fusion in the late 60's Bringing the heavier rhythms of Rock into the Jazz arena Mentoring the hugely successful spin-off Fusion bands like Weather Report, Return to Forever and Mahavishnu Orchestra Jazz has moved with the times, sometimes in a revolutionary way There seems to be little inspired recorded jazz going on today But the ever-popular Dixie style combos continue to perform at garden fetes and casual concerts... There is a pithy American adage... If You Want to Eat...Play Country If You Want to Starve...Play Jazz V Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duende Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Depends on who's playing and who's listening. That is simply put and right on! I could write a huge reply on saying what jazz is, but at best, it would still have lots of open ended bits that would still be exceptions to the rule. In the spirit of my mood of laziness today, I know jazz when I hear it and most other people seem to too! Out of all the various genres, jazz maybe the most, is meant to be just experienced! It is the zen of music! Lol Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FarnsBarns Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 I'm going to ask my father to answer this question. He was born in the 20s and was taught Jazz clarinet by Paul Barnes (Daddy Paul) in New Orleans. Daddy Paul was 20 years older than my father and could only be described as a true New Orleans jazz musician. My father played with the likes of the Ken Kolyer band on many occasions. I was luck enough to experience a lot of the great New Orleans jazz men, in Preservation Hall, in New Orleans although all those that I saw were very old as this was late 70s and early 80s. I have only a few memories of this because I was very young. I can remember that I was absolutely fascinated by drummers at that time. My parents were surprised that I didn't become a drummer. I'll come back with my fathers answer, don't expect it to be very forgiving or open minded! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Versatile Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Jazz is a very 'broad church' and appeals to people in different ways regarding 'soulful' vs 'clever' My favourite 'soulful' musicians.... Dave Brubeck, Wes Montgomery, Miles Davis, Paul Desmond, Joe Pass, John Scofield, Joe Zawinul, Dudley Moore, Wayne Shorter, Jaco Pastorius, Stephane Grappelli, Charlie Christian.. Clever veering towards soulful.... John McLaughlin, Oscar Peterson, Charlie Parker, Bud Powell, John Coltrane, Martin Taylor, Django Reinhardt, Tal Farlow, Jimmy Raney... V Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duende Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Versatile Lol Django is in my extremely soulful category! This is the beauty not just of jazz, but anything- ie how different things touch different people...I wouldn't want it any other way either! I think jazz takes an even more interesting turn in what a lot of people refer to as modern jazz. I love 20th and 21st century classical music so this is right up my street! Matt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duende Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Ps Dudley Moore! He was great wasn't he? He was also an awesome classical pianist. A real force of nature. Great acknowledgement v Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Versatile Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Thanks for your post Matt... Yes Modern Jazz was the answer to many people's desire for sophistication in the 50's, 60's and on A melding of often Classical training with jazz forms Perhaps epitomised by Dave Brubeck... I also enjoy the jazz leanings of some 20th century classical composers... Stravinsky, Milhaud, Shostakovich, Bernstein, Ravel.... Almost forgot to mention one of my favourite groups....The Modern Jazz Quartet... V Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TommyK Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Jazz is what it is. Take a melody, turn it up side down, and inside out. If you are feeling down, they play it soulfully. If you are feeling on top of the world, let 'er rip!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaxson50 Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Speaking as a ex-jazz drummer who played that art form for over 20 years till I decided to stop touring and play guitar and find a day job; Jazz is the most fluid of all music art forms, it can be very structured (Benny Goodman) or it can be totally improvisation (Miles Davis). Watch any form of music and pay attention to the drummer, that will tell you a lot; Blues is a expressive form, and some types of rock and roll can be expressive (improvisational) but those forms still have a more limited canvas because their time signatures are limited. 2-4, 3-4, 4-4 are the most common in blues and rock (and western). Jazz drummers have to maintain odd time signatures such as 5-8, 7-8, 9-8, 12-8. I had to learn 10-4, 10-8, 10-16, 11-4, 11-8, 13-4, 13-8. Mahavishnu Orchestras "Birds of Fire is played in 18-8, (guitarist plays 5+5+5+3 while the drummer plays 3+3+2+3+3+2+2). They also played in 19-4... The other difference is dynamics.....Blues and rock can be preformed with one volume setting....play as loud as you can...Jazz requires a subtle touch.... Recently there was a post on this forum declaring a certain rock drummer is the best because he breaks at least one drum head one each concert....well, when I was learning the trade the standard was a little different...to be a good drummer you had to play at any volume level and many time signatures and never break a stick! Let alone a skin! I had drum sticks that lasted me over a year and they were not B2 clubs and I played 5 nights every week! I used very light sticks, never mic'd my drums and could easily over power the other band members... Go to Youtube and watch Joe Morrello or Buddy Rich or one of the greatest time keepers Elvin Jones. Watch the foot work, the bass and the hi-hat keeps the time, the hands add accents and dynamics....Ginger Baker understood this,, he started out as a jazz drummer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fringe Lunatic Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 It's been said that rock is 3 chords played to 10,000 people, while jazz is 10,000 chords played to 3 people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djroge1 Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Seems to me that Jazz is meant to be both pretty and heady. Sometimes at the same time (Take 5) and sometimes they are distinct from each other Heady: Giant Steps Pretty: Summertime Both: Take 5 There are other examples but these were the first to pop into my mind and they are all fairly popular/well known. I believe from a musicians stand point - they are all meant to be fun in their own way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaxson50 Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Seems to me that Jazz is meant to be both pretty and heady. Sometimes at the same time (Take 5) and sometimes they are distinct from each other Heady: Giant Steps Pretty: Summertime Both: Take 5 There are other examples but these were the first to pop into my mind and they are all fairly popular/well known. I believe from a musicians stand point - they are all meant to be fun in their own way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaxson50 Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 Patrick Williams is one of the great arrangers of our time...you have heard his works to many times to list and you never heard of his name..... He is the arranger behind Tom Scott and the LA Express. He was the arranger/conductor for almost every TV show from 1967 to 1995 ...Listen to how fluid his work is; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCqJdB1U9v4&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAFbgt8HJlI&feature=related Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milod Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 This is totally subjective and personal opinion. Because of my lack of talent but a little bit of fingerpickin' skill, I love doing standards with fat chords on guitar. My idea of "standards" tends to include, however, up through some 1950s rock and even some relatively new material. But it's also the sorta thing Louis, Lady Day, Ella and generations of jazz folks have done, too, so I can be "me" within my limitations and still think I'm playing jazz... When I still could play trumpet, I loved some stuff like "St. James Infirmary." "Summertime" was great fun, and the last trumpet piece I ever played in a band on a gig 45 years ago when I still had front teeth that weren't storebought. When this thread began, I went scooting through "Youtube." I remembered some records I had back in the 1960s of Louis in the 20s and 30s. One point: A lotta the truly legendary "jazz" players ended up doing standards and could do country and rock, and a lotta country/rock/blues folks (try Roy Buchanan) did "jazz." Interesting. Bebop is a branch off the family tree, but I agree it's a branch that now has grown so far from the trunk that it's almost like a banyon tree that has grown so far out that it's as if it has almost dropped down to form a new trunk of its own separate from, although still tied to, the original. I guess I find it hard, myself, to consider odd time signatures "jazz" in the sense that the earlier musicians were writing or improvising for dance and song that people could sing and dance to. I'll admit that the head of the high school and his wife could dance to "Take Five" when our little combo played it... but... <grin> (Jax... I did drums on that one - just brushes - 'cuz the regular drummer went nuts with the "nonstandard" rhythm. He was very good on everything else.) Bottom line to me is that when "jazz" stopped having identifiable tunes and easily "foot-tapped" rhythms, it became something else. I don't know what to call it, and I s'pose since everybody calls it "jazz," it is. But... good as it is, to me it's not unlike a Bartok string quartet or an atonal piano piece. It can be nice to listen to at a concert or to "deconstruct," but... Whatever... I think that it ain't really jazz if you can't tap your foot and hum the original tune and then scat your way home... m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Versatile Posted March 15, 2011 Share Posted March 15, 2011 Perhaps a mention here of 'The Great American Songbook'....that fount of hummable tunes appropriated by 99% of jazz musicians Arguably headed up by George Gershwin with his 'I Got Rhythm', the basis for the 'Rhythm Changes' practiced by all aspiring improvisers And used as a basis for countless modern jazz standards.... V Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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