Theory - All levels, We can All Learn Something.

[mcmurray]

The question is.... What key is the song "You've got Another thing Comin" in??? It's F# Major.

 

I really have no idea how you came up with F# Major for the song. Lets agree to disagree.

 

To my ears, apart from the short 8 bar passage immediately before the solo, the song is 100% F# minor.

[mcmurray]

I found this, not sure if the source is ultra reliable but it backs up my key choice;

 

http://www.musicnotes.com/sheetmusic/mtdVPE.asp?ppn=mn0065707

 

Original Published Key: F# Minor

[Andy R]

Deleted

[stein]

How bout less "I woulds" and more contribs! I took the Diagram that Zig Zag Sent and have been working all day on a Powerpoint ( actually Keynote) that you can use to reduce the patterns into different chords, patterns, scales and modes as well as information updates as you do it.

 

Andy

Lol..not very good use of words there.

 

I was not meaning to suggest that the diagram was insufficient and it should be revised. I was trying to contribute that for me personally, writing it out myself with the notes helped me to see things and notice things that I could not by merely looking at it having been done for me.

 

I appreciate highly the contributions to this thread, especially the computer work that you guys are putting into it for our benefit. I realize I am a slacker in that area. I actually wish I knew how.

 

Cut a slacker some slack. I haven't even ever posted a pic here (or anywhere). But, my typing has improved to the point of being nearly normal. Remember how it was?

[Andy R]

Deleted

[mcmurray]

The correct answer is the Key is F# minor. It fools most people because they are playing mostly 5th's/ 4ths intervals which are ambiguous to major or minor but you can get clues just from the roots and notes of the 5ths but the Give away is the break before the solo when they do the slow D to A to F# .

 

Agreed, and with a good ear the key can be determined within the opening seconds of the song, which is part of the reason I always harp on about ear training and its importance :P

[Guest FarnsBarns]

This thread is now getting very interesting, I only wish I knew the song in question.

[stein]

Well, it looks like perhaps I am wrong twice. DANG!!!

 

Actually, while I think if I study I might find it is in f# minor, I still think it may be based more on a BLUES scale, which makes it based on chord and harmony voicings of the major scale, with the minor pentatonic as the melody. I found the vocal line to be what seemed to me a minor pentatonic, as well as the lead. While the whole structure could be based on root/fifth, I could almost swear the F# on the intro and outro are the played with the 3rd.

 

And, this is something that has stumped me forever: why a minor pentatonc or a blues scale works over a major chord I can not explain. But, clearly it does, and clearly it is done a lot in both rock and blues. It is also against the convention of western classical music. It also makes it a ***** to read and write music.

 

I can say that, when writing it as music, it would be far easier to write it with 3 sharps as the key and add the sharp for the 3rd in the f# (if it is there) than it would to make all the corrections for the melody of the vocal line.

[Duende]

a good ear the key can be determined within the opening seconds of the song, which is part of the reason I always harp on about ear training and its importance :P

 

So, so true...

(I clicked plus twice in the hope i could sneak two in LOL)

 

Matt

[mcmurray]

This thread is now getting very interesting, I only wish I knew the song in question.

 

I didn't before today either, but I found it on youtube.

 

Judas Priest never really broke into the Australian market.

[duane v]

The correct answer is the Key is F# minor. It fools most people because they are playing mostly 5th's/ 4ths intervals which are ambiguous to major or minor but you can get clues just from the roots and notes of the 5ths but the Give away is the break before the solo when they do the slow D to A to F# . One Trick is to sing over the 5ths (power Chords) playig them as actual major and or minor and see what Sounds right. It is easy to hear that part is D Maj, A Maj, and F# Minor. But we can use other theory as well because We also know they are playing an E5 and a B5 and C# 5 So even using 5ths we know we have the following notes.

 

A, B, C#, D, E, F# So we have 6 of 7 of the notes we need to know just from the root of the 5ths So we need to Find some kind of G Somewhere. The 5th of C# is G#

 

So now we have all the notes of the Key Which is A,B,C#,D,E,F#,G# Which is an A Major Scale and has the key signature 3 Sharps. So now there is two possibilities it's either A Major or the Relative minor F#

Well Since it Starts on and is 90 % F# looking at F# Minor is more plausible since they barely go to A.

 

So If we take the Basic chord progression of F# Minor We Get F# Minor, G# Dim, A Major, B Minor, C# Minor, and D major . The C# Minor is what is funky Because they are playing a C# 5 Rob Halford pushes the tonality to C# Major.

 

So in the end the Key of the Song is written As F# Minor but they use 5ths a lot and play around with the major/minor 3rd on some the 5ths that should technically be major or minor with the vocal melody and some the guitar melodies....

 

 

So there are 2 lessons here.

 

1 Another Thing Coming While Easy to Play is actually put together in an unusual way that is a head scratcher on the Theory side. And Preist rocks of course...

 

2. If you ever get stuck in the situation where your not sure if you should play a Major or Minor...... Just play a 5th Since it is neutral....

 

 

Andy

 

there is no minor 3rd chord structure within any part of the meat of the song, and nothing can be nuetral. The F# minor that you speak of isnt even a subdominent aspect of the whole piece. What you're hearing is a minor scale voicing over a major triade chord structure.

 

when I get back from dropping off my daughter, I'll play the part of the song in F# minor and sing the vocal line. Then play it in F# major with the same exact vocal line.

[Andy R]

<br>And, this is something that has stumped me forever: why a minor pentatonc or a blues scale works over a major chord I can not explain. But, clearly it does, and clearly it is done a lot in both rock and blues. It is also against the convention of western classical music. It also makes it a ***** to read and write music.

Uhhh... You were the first one on here to mention the Relative Minor of a Key. This is exactly what I am spending a whole lot of time explaining what is so obvious it escapes alot of of us ( It did me for years).

 

When you are playing in a Given Key That key and that key only ( and it's relative minor) ( and modes of the same key) will have the same Key signature and you will have 7 notes ( with varying numbers of Flats and Sharps) The amount of flats and sharps a key has defines what key it is! So only 2 keys share the same amount of flats and sharps The Major and Its Relative minor .

 

So C Maj and A minor Will never ever ever have any flats or sharps in it's key signature. Their is only 2 keys that have 1 sharp the Key of G Major and Its relative minor E minor and that sharp will always be an F#. This is true for every key. There is a Maj and Minor Key that progress and are defined by the number of Sharps or flats they contain and those flats and sharps will always be the same notes.

 

So here is the easiest premise in the world. As long as you are only playing notes that are in the key you are playing in then you really can't play a bad note because any chord that is being played that is in that key will only contain the notes of the key you are in.

 

So Simply put if you are playing in the key of C Major as long as you don't play a note that is an "accidental" by default you can't really play a "bad" note whether the chord or the scale you are playing is major or minor. This holds true with the example of the key of G MAjor and E minor If you only play the natural notes (EXCEPT F) because in the Key of G major and E minor the F is F#.

 

So for the grand finally.

If you know what key your in and what notes are in that key then if you only play those notes you have about a 95 % chance on not playing something sour. Regardless if it is a major scale ( in its key) or a minor scale in its key) The exception being landing on a note that has a half step interval with the chord your playing over so for example in the key of C if a chord your playing over has an E or F in it then you most likely you want to avoid the half step interval because it will clash with the note that is a half step interval from it.

 

So if you are in the key of C and a Person is Playing an F Major chord you want to avoid the E note. If you are playing an E minor chord which is the Notes EAB you want to avoid playing an F or a C Because F is a half step interval away from E and C is a Half Step interval to B.

 

You can Still play them as a passing tone but the half step will want to be resolved quickly to the note that is a half step away.

 

When you are playing pentatonic scales (5 note scale) you are removing the 2 notes that are a half step interval of the key its in which is the 4th and the 7th. So now you are even less likely you will hit a bad note because you lessen the chance of hitting or landing on that half step interval between the notes you are playing and the notes in the chords you're playing over.

 

So lets look at playing over the Typical A Blues You would either be playing the A Major Chord, or A5, DMajor, or D5 and E major or E5

 

So A Major = AC#E , D Major = DF#A and E =EF#B

 

A major Pentatonic = A,B,C#,E,F# A Minor Pentatonic = A, C, D, E, G

 

This works for major and minor 7ths as well because the 7th Also kind of defines a Chord tonality to major or minor like a 3rd does In this case you will tend to resolve the half step discrepancy by utilizing it as a passing tone or bending and actually end up not playing strictly a pentatonic 5 Note Scale You will end up playing the Hybrid blues scales.

 

If you are using only 5ths for the rhythm then there is no defining note to determine if you are playing A Maj/min D Maj/Min or E maj/min And you end up playing over AE DA and EB

 

So the notes that are missing to determine that are C/C# F/F# and G/G# As well as a Maj/Min 7 D/D# G/G# and F/F# So depending if you pick A Major Pentatonic or You Pick A Minor Pentatonic or the hybrid blues scale you can push it in all directions because you are now defining the major or minor 3rd, Major Minor 7th etc...

 

Hope that helps clear it up for ya.

 

One thing I always told my students is in reality you can play all twelve notes over anything as long as you don't hang on a clashing note, Phrase it well, Do it with confidence and land on a note that resolves to the chord you are playing over.

 

2nd rule which was passed to me is if you land on a sour note. Do it again and do it confidently and then bend the shite out of it or hit the bail out stick if ya got one! Dive it down and add a pick scrape or neck slide just to punctuate how cool that last lick was !

[ShredAstaire]

Deleted.

[zigzag]

Deleted

[ShredAstaire]

Deleted.

[ChanMan]

I like it to a degree...its getting pretty ridiculous in here! :)

 

 

It IS why I tend to avoid these threads... they start out well enough, but quickly devolve into spirals of "theory geek-speak" which occlude the learning for those of us who would.

 

 

But.... I DO want to hear Duane play and sing the song!

[duane v]

Here we go ...Recorded on my BlackBerry then converted to a WAV file using my Gibby Double neck...LOL

 

The first sample is me playing the bridge and entering the chorus. I use F# Minor to C# minor to B# Minor and back to F# Minor. Then F# Minor to C# minor to B# Minor C# Major back to F# Minor. I could have also used D Major to replace the C# Minor in both bars to allow for familiar voicing, but either way the whole passage would have still been in F# Minor

 

The second sample is F# Major to D Major to B# Major back to F# Major. Then F# Major to D Major to B# Major to C# major back to F# Major.

 

Sorry about not getting the lyrics correct

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFUOyUcILkE

[zigzag]

Deleted

[ShredAstaire]

Deleted.

[duane v]

Certainly it matters....

 

When you're in a band where all the musicians read and write music, it makes a huge difference and it cuts the writing time in half because all you have to do is hand the the group the music piece, or just be able to shout out the chord progressions and everyone is right on top of it.

 

Nothing more frustrating to me when you have musicians (and especially during a jam session) that can't keep up because they don't have the ability to change chords or improvise coherently over chord changes.

[ShredAstaire]

Aint that what your ears are for? You listen and then play....no?

 

Anyway, everyone putting in the 2 cents in this thread read and play music but still can't agree...

[ShredAstaire]

Deleted.

[duane v]

Aint that what your ears are for? You listen and then play....no?

 

Anyway, everyone putting in the 2 cents in this thread read and play music but still can't agree...

 

Having an ear is a great thing, but being able to play by ear and being able to read proficiently is a major plus when laying down tracks where time is money, and when playing in a live situation where you have no idea what the song list is going to be.

 

People will never agree on music.... that's the beauty of it .... I think it's great that everyone is putting in their 2 cents where they can... I'll take an additional 2 cents of knowledge wherever I can get it.

[duane v]

If i was writing songs with people and it turned into the verbal equivalent of a 5 page discussion on what key the song is in, i would lose my mind and say "play these chords!!" lol!!

 

Your greatest groups will scrutinize just two measures of a vocal line for three days

[ShredAstaire]

Deleted.