Theory - All levels, We can All Learn Something.

[Andy R]

Matt,

I would say that fun facts related to music theory would be a good thing to break it up a bit.

 

I would suggest when providing an example/lesson you put it in a similar format that I have started doing so that people that want to stay on topic can easily do so.

Also when a question or (debate in process) is resolved it is summarized In the same manner so that people can quickly jump to what they are trying to find.

 

 

Andy

[Duende]

Matt,

I would say that fun facts related to music theory would be a good thing to break it up a bit.

 

I would suggest when providing an example/lesson you put it in a similar format that I have started doing so that people that want to stay on topic can easily do so.

Also when a question or (debate in process) is resolved it is summarized In the same manner so that people can quickly jump to what they are trying to find.

 

 

Andy

 

Sorry Andy I don't agree with you on this...

I like the conversational style in teaching/talking about music, otherwise in my opinion it seems like just lists of facts and rules that IMHO make it seem uninspired and unpleasant for a reader. There is room for differing methods surely? Look, It is your thread, so if you would rather I can start another theory thread (which don't mind doing) , otherwise lets do things the way we both would like, as free people

 

Matt

[stein]

Sorry Andy I don't agree with you on this.

I like the conversational style in teaching/talking about music, otherwise in my opinion it seems lists of boring facts. There is room for differing methods. You do things your way, and I'll do things mine

 

Matt

Sorry my English highly trained intelligent talented bud, but I'm gonna have to side with ANDY on this one.

 

You got the goods, you got the knowledge, and you do know how to teach. You could do a vid, you can write in your humor, you can do anything.

 

It may be a bit boring, but when one has an interest, it is interesting.

 

Not only that, both me and ANDY have made a couple attempts and they are either full of mistakes, confusing to understand, or need a little correction.

 

I have gained some pretty slick ideas on ways to approach from what Andy has written, but I also thing he has given great tips but skipped right over the very basics. I know there is time invested in his writing it because it takes me time to ingest it. I know others have written good stuff as well. While I have not written much, I have not found a good way to write down what I want because I am missing a lot of basics that have to be termed right in order to make sense.

 

AND, besides all that, I am a fan and would really LOVE to get some of your teaching and method.

 

PLEEEEEEEEZZZZZE???????

[Andy R]

Sorry Andy I don't agree with you on this...

I like the conversational style in teaching/talking about music, otherwise in my opinion it seems like just lists of facts and rules that IMHO make it seem uninspired and unpleasant for a reader. There is room for differing methods surely? Look, It is your thread, so if you would rather I can start another theory thread (which don't mind doing) , otherwise lets do things the way we both would like, as free people

 

Matt

 

 

Matt,

I'm not suggesting not having the conversations be a part of the thread. I'm only suggesting that once the conversation comes to a point or conclusion we summarize it in a single post in some way. (I'm not suggesting we remove the conversation that lead to the summary) Some people may enjoy the conversational process and some may not and find it confusing and tedious. This allows for both. Are you good with that? As I said I don't consider this "My thread" I am only suggesting ways to make it flow as well as containing "Mile Stones" or Summary Points... I am open to what ever anyone wants to do.

 

If you disagree please carry on anyway you like. No need to move elsewhere.

 

 

Andy

[Andy R]

Not only that, both me and ANDY have made a couple attempts and they are either full of mistakes, confusing to understand, or need a little correction.

 

Hey Pal! Speak for yourself! In my defense I stand by my posts and reasoning. Confusing maybe, Wrong? ( matter of opinion) ... Said with a smile and a laugh....

[Andy R]

Andy's take on music Theory Part-3 ( Rock N' Roll Guitar Theory )

 

I am going to take a bit of a leap here and try to "Categorize" my style of "theory" and "teaching" as being more of a Basics of theory for "Rock Guitar" and try not to stray too far into the "Classical" or "Notational" realm of theory

 

My goal is to convey enough theory to provide guitarist that are interested methods, tricks and examples that will allow them to do the following basics...

 

1. Name what key you are in

2. See patterns that happen on the guitar that once recognized can reduce the amount of memorization to a minimum

3. Understand why some scales, riffs, etc... work better over certain chords and vice versa

4. Quick ways to play in different keys and modes and know what you are doing

5. Provide a foundation to build on to figure out even more theory if desired

 

So with these things in mind this is the way that " I apply and think" of theory as related to playing guitar.

 

Step 1. Learn all note names and be able to start on any string and name the notes up and down the neck up to the 12th fret. The 12 fret is just a repeat of the open strings so the guitar repeats its self after that.

 

You don't have to be able to name them by sight ( it helps though ) but you do need to at least be able to figure it out.

At the very least get good at naming the natural notes (ABCDEFG) on the E A D Strings and then the Octave ( Skip a string from the note/fret your playing and skip a fret.

 

This will work between:

E and D String

A and G String

 

For the D and B string you have to skip 2 frets

 

Obviously the high E string just repeats like the Low E

 

Here are some different ways of seeing your fretboard

 

Some people get overwhelmed because they see this or think they need to see and remember all of this

 

 

Here is some condensed ways to look at it

 

 

Quick octaves as described above...

 

Some other "Views"

 

 

Having good reference points will help you land on the Sweet note instead of the sour fanort....

 

One thing you "Generally" want to avoid is starting on or ending on a note that is a half step distance between any notes (within) the chords you're playing. At the very least be ready to bend up! As I said before you can theoretically play every note there is if you don't stay on the "bad" ones for the key long and you start and land on your feet ( usually by starting on either the 1 (root of the Chord) Major or Minor 3rd, the 5th, b7 or 7th of the chords you are playing over. You're always safe beginning or ending on the root or the 5th of the chord ( if it is a chord).

That said, This is a general and blanket statement not a rule...

 

Hope This helps someone

[zigzag]

It may be worth noting that the octave is twelve frets away. That means that, on all strings but the second, the octave from the open string is on the 7th fret of the next lowest string, e.g. the octave for the open E on the sixth string is on the 7th fret of the fifth string, etc.

[fl00dsm0k3]

music to me isnt a theory

[Versatile]

Very interesting post....as to be expected

 

IMO theory is in the eye/ear of the individual player

 

Some players love to have analysis of what they are doing

 

Some very lucky players can go by ear and instinct and create beautiful music

 

A teacher, by definition will need theory and ability to illustrate musical concepts

 

A teacher can also provide short cuts to allow the pupil to access more music more quickly....

 

V

 

[ShredAstaire]

One of the most helpful things i learned in my guitar class this year was the PATTERN of notes on the fretboard:

 

2 = 2 Frets

1 = 1 Fret

 

A (2) B (1) C (2) D (2) E (1) F (2) G

 

I can now find any note on the fretboard based on this as long as i know what string I am looking at.

 

On the Low E String:

 

Open = E

1f = F

2f = F#

3f = G

4f = G#

5f = A

6f = A#

7f = B

8f = C

9f = C#

10f = D

11f = D#

12f = E

 

On the A String:

 

Open = A

1f = A#

2f = B

3f = C

4f = C#

5f = D

6f = D#

7f = E

8f = F

9f = F#

10f = G

11f = G#

12f = A

 

You can now apply this to the rest of the fretboard and as Andy said, everything just repeats after the 12th fret. (Pretend the 12th fret is OPEN)

 

This was one of the single biggest revelations to me in my class. That I didn't have to MEMORIZE the fretboard by looking at a picture of it with all the notes shown. That was daunting to me and probably why i never learned it. Knowing that there is a PATTERN really opened it up for me.

 

Hope that helps someone! :)

[vourot]

If you know the notes on the bottom two strings, you can find any note using octaves. That is as easy as it gets and you don't have to remember anything except three simple shapes.

[zigzag]

There were several things that I learned that really helped me to read and play music notation. The first was learning major scales and the second was learning the circle of fourths and fifths. Learning the cycle of 4ths and 5ths taught me to instantly know which key a piece is in, and learning major scales taught me the positions of the notes on the neck for that key, except for accidentals. Learning how to find the note names on the neck quickly is the next step.

 

To complete the ability to interpret a piece of music is to be able to handle meter, rhythms, and note/rest values.

 

As with any undertaking, you must first make the commitment to get it done.

[Andy R]

One of the most helpful things i learned in my guitar class this year was the PATTERN of notes on the fretboard:

 

2 = 2 Frets

1 = 1 Fret

 

A (2) B (1) C (2) D (2) E (1) F (2) G

 

I can now find any note on the fretboard based on this as long as i know what string I am looking at.

 

On the Low E String:

 

Open = E

1f = F

2f = F#

3f = G

4f = G#

5f = A

6f = A#

7f = B

8f = C

9f = C#

10f = D

11f = D#

12f = E

 

On the A String:

 

Open = A

1f = A#

2f = B

3f = C

4f = C#

5f = D

6f = D#

7f = E

8f = F

9f = F#

10f = G

11f = G#

12f = A

 

You can now apply this to the rest of the fretboard and as Andy said, everything just repeats after the 12th fret. (Pretend the 12th fret is OPEN)

 

This was one of the single biggest revelations to me in my class. That I didn't have to MEMORIZE the fretboard by looking at a picture of it with all the notes shown. That was daunting to me and probably why i never learned it. Knowing that there is a PATTERN really opened it up for me.

 

Hope that helps someone! :)

 

Shred,

 

That is excellent and exactly the kinds of contributions I would like to see more of. Different approaches to seeing and hearing, thinking about how you and others get around the guitar. Like I said earlier we all apply some theory we just may not realize it. Theory for the sake of theory is pointless. Theory for the sake of improving as a musician ( as little or as much as we may need) is what it is about to me...

 

So one thing you just helped me see is that each string starts out in a different mode of C Major. Never noticed that before. If you turn your 1's and 2's into Whole Steps ( 2's) and Half Steps (1's) you will find that you have 5 of the 7 modes of C Major.

 

EFGABCDE =

 

C Major 1st mode = C Ionian mode = WWHWWWH or CDEFGABC Also known as the C Major Scale

C Major 2nd Mode = C Dorian Mode = WHWWWHW or DEFGABCD

C Major 3rd Mode = C Phrygian Mode = HWWWHWW or EFGABCDEF

C Major 4th Mode = C Lydian Mode = WWWHWWH or FGABCDEF

C Major 5th Mode = C Mixolydian Mode = WWHWWHW or GABCDEFG

C Major 6th Mode = C Aeolian Mode = WHWWHWW or ABCDEFGA Also Known as A Natural minor or the Relative Minor of the Key

C Major 7th Mode = C Locrian = HWWHWWW or BCDEFGABCD

So You could look at starting on the open strings and playing the natural notes as

 

E String = C Phrygian

B String = C Locrian

G String = C Mixolydian

D String = C Dorian

A String = C Aeolian ( minor scale in A)

E String = C Phrygian

 

Cool and Thanks!

[Andy R]

If you know the notes on the bottom two strings, you can find any note using octaves. That is as easy as it gets and you don't have to remember anything except three simple shapes.

 

 

Yep again, Whatever works for you. I actually use this the most...

[Andy R]

music to me isnt a theory

 

Thanks for sharing. That has changed my whole perspective and really taught everyone something. Guess I will shut the thread down now.

[Andy R]

It may be worth noting that the octave is twelve frets away. That means that, on all strings but the second, the octave from the open string is on the 7th fret of the next lowest string, e.g. the octave for the open E on the sixth string is on the 7th fret of the fifth string, etc.

 

 

Thanks ZigZag!

[zigzag]

Ionian mode = WWHWWWH No sharps or flats relative to the notes in the key.

Dorian Mode = WHWWWHW or 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7

Phrygian Mode = HWWWHWW or 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

Lydian Mode = WWWHWWH or 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7

Mixolydian Mode = WWHWWHW or 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7

Aeolian Mode = WHWWHWW or 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 Also Known as A Natural minor or the Relative Minor of the Key

Locrian = HWWHWWW or 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7

 

And this whole step/half step relationship works the same way for all modes in every key. (Andy, hope you don't mind my additions.) The additions I made describe the notes in the mode relative to the notes in the key's scale. Notice that when you move up from one note to the next as the first note of the next mode, the half steps drop back one interval (the entire pattern shifts). That's just the way it works out. In essence, to move from one mode to the next in the sequence, you just move up to the next note in the scale pattern as the first note of the next mode.

 

Edit: Note the change in wording.

[Andy R]

And this whole step/half step relationship is true for all modes in every key.

 

Yes, I intended on mentioning this in that post. Thanks for pointing it out!

 

 

Andy

[Andy R]

And this whole step/half step relationship is true for all modes in every key.

 

Just noticed you changed how I wrote out the whole steps and half steps and added flats and sharps for the modes. This can be confusing if taken out of context of the root key and should be clarified....

 

 

Andy

[rct]

I'm not sure about the insistence that there is a "root key". You can use these modes over any chord in the song, regardless of key changes.

 

Music should be learned as sharps and flats, that is how other people that use written music will communicate. "Half step" and "whole step" would probably get pretty ugly in an ensemble made up of members of all the European countries and their languages and dialects within those languages. Much easier to hold three fingers pointing down, indicating a flatted third.

 

The starting points of the modes up through the scale they are being used over is by mathematical design and should be the way they are committed to memory.

 

Music theory is pretty hard core, and has pretty hard core reasons for why things are done the way they are.

 

rct

[Andy R]

Ionian mode = WWHWWWH No sharps or flats

Dorian Mode = WHWWWHW or 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7

Phrygian Mode = HWWWHWW or 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

Lydian Mode = WWWHWWH or 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7

Mixolydian Mode = WWHWWHW or 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7

Aeolian Mode = WHWWHWW or 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 Also Known as A Natural minor or the Relative Minor of the Key

Locrian = HWWHWWW or 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7

 

What Zig Zag did was demonstrate what you are doing to the corresponding major scales of each of the root notes contained in the key. If you look at it this way you are associating the notes within a single scale applying the formula to each major scale of every root note.

 

Where this can lead to confusion (for example) is that it's not that the Ionian Scale ( major Scale ) will never contain any flats or sharps note wise.

 

It is showing that you are not raising or lowering ( flatting or sharping the formula its self) in other words the formula WWHWWWH will always be that and it will always make a major scale and it will always be Ionian mode. In this method you are thinking more in terms of sharp or flat as it relates to the actual Whole Step or Half step interval pattern as it relates back to a Major Scale. Not necessarily the "notes it produces"

 

This method works for some but I find it to be confusing... Especially if you ( No Offense Zig Zag ) don't understand the context and relation to what you are starting with. As I said it is good to look at things in different ways. I can see the benefit of thinking in this way as it essentially tells you what chords are related to the mode.

 

So relating this back to what I wrote and the key of C Major: CDEFGABC

 

Ionian mode = WWHWWWH No sharps or flats = CDEFGABC

 

Dorian Mode = WHWWWHW or 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 The nect note in a C Major Scale is D. So we look at the D major scale WWHWWWH and get the notes D E F# G A B C# D If we use the method above we flatten the F# to F and the C# to C so we end up with the notes of C Major Dorian which is DEFGABCD ( notice the actual notes in this case aren't flat or sharp)

 

Phrygian Mode = HWWWHWW or 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 the 3rd note in the key of C Major is E. If we look at the E Major Scale we have the notes of EF#G#ABC#D#E if we flat or lower by a half step the 2nd, 3rd, 6th and 7th note we end up with EFGABCDE which is C Major Phrygian Mode

 

 

Lydian Mode = WWWHWWH or 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7 the 4th note of Cmajor is F so if we Start with an F Major scale we end up with FGABbCDEF if we raise the 4th note a half step we end up with CDEFGABC

 

 

Mixolydian Mode = WWHWWHW or 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 the 5th note of the key of C major is G so we start with the G major Scale GABCDEF#G Lower the 6th note and we end up with GABCDEFG Which is Cmajor Mixolydian Mode

 

 

Aeolian Mode = WHWWHWW or 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 Also Known as A Natural minor or the Relative Minor of the Key Etc...

 

Locrian = HWWHWWW or 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7 etc...

 

 

As I said you have to be careful in that this description isn't actually saying that those notes will be sharp or flat it is what you are doing to change that particular degree of the original major scale formula.

 

1 major benefit of understanding the modes this way is that if you know chord theory ( what notes are used and manipulated within a major scale to produce a certain type of chord then you can quickly tell what chord types the mode will work over or imply)

 

 

Sorry for the Ramble...

[zigzag]

Good job Andy!

 

The whole problem for me in learning theory is the nomenclature used to describe a scale and the natural half steps between B and C, and E and F.

[Andy R]

I'm not sure about the insistence that there is a "root key". You can use these modes over any chord in the song, regardless of key changes.

 

Music should be learned as sharps and flats, that is how other people that use written music will communicate. "Half step" and "whole step" would probably get pretty ugly in an ensemble made up of members of all the European countries and their languages and dialects within those languages. Much easier to hold three fingers pointing down, indicating a flatted third.

 

The starting points of the modes up through the scale they are being used over is by mathematical design and should be the way they are committed to memory.

 

Music theory is pretty hard core, and has pretty hard core reasons for why things are done the way they are.

 

rct

 

RCT I agree but as I stated earlier in my thread I am taking more of a Theory for Rock guitar approach and less of a Classical and or Notational approach. To me it's whatever works for you. I know what works for me. I know what confused me when trying to apply strict theory to guitar and to be honest I will never be in a "concert" or Orchestra situation. So if I can understand what i need to know to play with other Rock guitarist I am good. As I said there is plenty of room on here for teaching traditional and classical methods and would love it if you or somebody else would do so.

 

But to just throw out that Ionian has no flats or sharps ( out of context) and If you think of Ionian as the Major scale this can be confusing. Since i know that for example

A Major Ionian is ABC#DEF#G#A There are Sharp notes in an Ionian Scale depending on what is the root note! If it is related in context as in you don't flat or sharp anything in an Ionian Mode Scale you simply use WWHWWWH ( but you still might end up with sharp or flat notes) See my point?

 

An easy way to see modes starting with a Major scale is to realize you are just shifting the patterns of whole steps and half steps by 1 as you proceed.

 

WWHWWWH

WHWWHWW

HWWWHWW

WWWHWWH

WWHWWHW

WHWWHWH

HWWHWWW

Back to

WWHWWWH

 

So if you know that the E Major Ionian ( or E Major is EF#G#ABC#D#E) (or use the formula WWHWWWH to figure that out)

Then to know the Modes of E Major Ionian you only have to start with the note name and work your way back through

 

E F#G#ABC#D#E

F# G#ABC#D#EF#

G# A#BC#D#EF#

A BC#D#EF#G#A

B C#D#EF#G#AB

C# D#EF#G#ABC#

D# EF#G#ABC#D#

back to

E F#G#ABC#D#E

 

The drawback is you don't see how the mode relates to a chord or the root scale... I think it is good if you understand both ways or at least one way and how to apply it.

 

 

 

Same thing different way to look at it. To me it doesn't matter so long as I apply it correctly....

 

Also not disparaging anyone's ability here on the forum (As I realize there are people of all levels) but A LOT of guitarist are doing well if they have even learned the note names or understand what a flat or sharp is.

 

What Key they are in is usually a "Best Guess" and the concept of Major and Minor Keys Eludes them as most I have encountered believe it has to do with playing minor chords....

 

When you get into modes that's when you lose about 95% of the audience.

 

Concerning committing things to memory... What good does it do to commit something to memory that you really don't understand or how to apply it? Everyone learns differently and I believe the key to learning is the comprehension and application... Not the method or rote memorization.... I know that E=Mc2 but that doesn't mean I know how to apply it to splitting an atom ( which I don't)

[zigzag]

It is also enlightening to know that the relationships of the notes in each mode are the same regardless of the key you're in. For instance, Dorian Mode = WHWWWHW. That "Dorian" scheme is the same regardless of the key that it is played in.

 

Unfortunately, modes make absolutely no sense to anyone who doesn't know, at the very least, major scales. If you don't know scales, take 3 months to a year out of your practice time to learn major scales. To learn them, you are basically just learning 5 scale positions and moving them up and down the neck to match each key.

[Andy R]

It is also enlightening to know that the relationships of the notes in each mode are the same regardless of the key you're in. For instance, Dorian Mode = WHWWWHW. That "Dorian" scheme is the same regardless of the key that it is played in.

 

Unfortunately, modes make absolutely no sense to anyone who doesn't know, at the very least, major scales. If you don't know scales, take 3 months to a year out of your practice time to learn major scales. To learn them, you are basically just learning 5 scale positions and moving them up and down the neck to match each key.

 

 

3 months to a year? I know we geetar players aint all dat bright en all but keeeeripes!!! If it takes that long to learn 5 patterns or so we be in some big truuuuble!

 

 

Ha Ha....

 

I played, taught, read books, watched videos you name it for years..... Modes didn't sink in until I sat down and put together bits and pieces I kinda understood until I found a way for it to make sense to me. I find that either people attempting to teach modes either over simplify it or make it way too complex or will come close but not provide the information needed to really make it stick...

 

 

 

The old Vinnie Moore lessons that are on you tube come close but still need to be related and summarized a bit better.

 

For example I showed one way, you showed another. RTC is right too but so far we have just basically said/showed the same thing in a different way that would appear to people reading as a disagreement or that one way is right and one way is wrong.

 

RTC is right in the respect that you need to understand the relationship to flats and sharps to chords/keys/tonic/root/modes etc...

I disagree that you have to learn it in a certain order or method. So I guess my statement about understanding and memorizing works both ways.

 

You can understand something and theoretically know how to apply it but not have an easy way to remember what it is you are applying...

 

 

To me, in the end, as long as whatever method or combination of methods come together to form a complete picture is what matters. As of right now I believe until we add audio examples and define what goes where as well as how to define and apply it. Modes mean nothing... Yet.......

 

 

Andy