Sounding like Yourself

[Septic]

So I was learning Jhonny B Goode and boy, do I sound NOT rock at all.

 

No! I am not diluted enough to think I could play like Chuck, or even his cheap immitators, but damn it I wanted it to sound a little bit like old rock. I sound country!

 

Let me explain, I hate picks. I use them to strum punk, when I am guaranteed not to have to play one single string at a time, but if I'll have to be precise, I pick with my fingers and I strum with them too. I sound so not rock!

I think some of the trouble is timing too. Meh, there aer worse things, lol.

 

Have you ever tried a song, done it with proper time and decent tone, then heard yourself and gone, "@#$$#%^%@$"?

 

 

I've tried to emulate that "old school Rock 'n' Roll" vibe many times in the last 30 years and had very limited success, but it wasn't until I listened to a cassette recording I made in the early '70s that I realised that I could do it well enough before I developed a style of my own.

 

I don't like picks either.... Can't use 'em!!!.. I just listen to what's in my head and let it happen... Sometimes I feel like a total p***k when it doesn't sound right.... but it's rare nowadays.... And I don't care when others aren't impressed.... I love what I do.

[FirstMeasure]

This is why I like piano. If you have your timing right and the right keys, you may not sound like the original, but your tone isn't an issue (provided you have a good instrument). The piano has its own voice and it will sing the note you command.

 

Guitar is just a rebel. I bend the right string at the right fret at the correct time and it sounds NOTHING like the right bent key. Makes me want to never bend a note again. God forbid you have a poopoo amp! And the chink a chink thing, good lord, I beat my head against that for a SRV song and said, "where's my Nirvana book? I'm back to basics!" It depressed me that much xD

 

 

In the end with patience and acceptance of our own limitations we can grow to become better interpreters, but I think there is something that sticks with us from the start that gives us our individual unique style. Something we don't outgrow. Those who harness this uniqueness are probably the guitarists who stand out and who are confident because they aren't vying for someone else's sound. They grow past modeling themselves after an idol and concentrate only on producing sound that mirrors what they hear in their heads as closely as possible despite limitations. Perhaps it is those limitations that give them an edge. Like Chuck playing it, "not as perfect" making the song sound the way it needs to.

 

Imagine someone you idolize hearing himself and saying, "man, that's not the way I wanted it to sound." All you can think is, "but it sounds awesome!" Mind is blown.

I think you'll find a lot of Idolized Musicians don't sound like they want to. David Gilmore, for instance, would really like to play like Jeff Beck (or so he said in a Guitar Player interview) but said he can only sound like himself. His fingers will only move so fast, or so he says. It's not mind blowing, it's common place. But that doesn't stop each and every one of them from trying to progress beyond what they are.

 

So I have to ask you, when do you define your limitations? From the beginning? After you learn your chords? After you write your first song? When you come across your first tough hurdle? Once you've accepted a limitation you're pigeonholed. Even if it is an actual limitation you'll never overcome, you'll be better off not accepting it. 'Cause unlike jumping motorcycles, pushing your limits on guitar will not kill you.

 

Playing came very natural to me, singing does not. I could have decided years ago that my limits were that of a guitar player that would never be a singer. Instead I decided to work year after year until I could call myself a singer. I may never be as good as my favorite singers, but I get requests to sing at our gigs. That tells me my perception of my singing means less than the perception of the audience. If they like it who am I to argue?

 

My advice to any musician of any level, don't count yourself short. You can sound like what you want to sound like. If you can't do it with the techniques you already know you may have to learn some new techniques. And playing what you already know or playing within your comfort zone will never get you there. Even if you only plan on writing your own material and never feel like covering a song in your life. But as you said, you'd like to write something with an old rock feel. You have to learn some old rock techniques, and maybe even practice with a pick until it's just as comfortable as your fingers. You won't lose your ability to play with your fingers, you'll augment that ability and build your bag of tricks.

 

You couldn't play the guitar 'till you learned how, that process doesn't stop after you get the basics down. I mean this in the most positive way, you have to ditch your preconceptions about what a guitarist is if you want to be the guitarist you can be.

[Izzy]

So I have to ask you, when do you define your limitations? From the beginning? After you learn your chords? After you write your first song? When you come across your first tough hurdle? Once you've accepted a limitation you're pigeonholed.

 

 

You couldn't play the guitar 'till you learned how, that process doesn't stop after you get the basics down. I mean this in the most positive way, you have to ditch your preconceptions about what a guitarist is if you want to be the guitarist you can be.

 

I like your perspective. I know I am not able to stretch as much as some players to get certain chords, but that can improve with time and warm ups and exercises. I know I am not fast, but I read somewhere that Les Paul urged guitar players to play slow and be accurate. He said that once you got the notes down in slow motion you could speed up gradually and one day you'd be awesome. I have a hard time taking that advice, but I know with practice/patience I could get faster and more accurate.

 

What I don't get is this: When I play Ordinary World, an easy pop song by Duran Duran, for instance, I play it on time and I play it with the right chords and notes. I have decent equipment. I hear what I play but I feel like I'm not in control of the sound. Does that make sense? Like I'm going through motions but not feeling, despite the fact that I love that song. When I sing I feel what I am doing and I can shove the emotion into the notes and I like what I hear out of my body, but I can't do that with my guitar and it makes me mad. I feel like it isn't an extension of me, as an instrument should be. Is that something that comes with time too?

[VikingBlues]

Limitations can be so frustrating ... but time and patience can gradually work wonders. Acceptance of limitations has helped me too, though it doesn't stop me searching for ways to improve. The speed issue was one that used to bother me a lot. Eventually I saw that there are enough exapmles of great guitar playing out there which are not fast, rely on playing the right notes (and playing the right silences), and are something to aspire to. The likes of Peter Green in Fleetwood Mac playing "Jumping at Shadows" - more feeling and passion in each note than a lot of players have in hundreds of notes.

 

You mention - "I feel like it isn't an extension of me" about your guitar. I do remember that, and some days it's still the case. But it does get better with time and practice. Hopefully along that road there's a few "ah-hah" moments that give sudden and dramatic improvements - they help the enthusism levels, but it's a shame they're so tricky to find.

 

Despite all the frustrations of getting the right sound, of attempting to play physically what I can "hear" in my head", of having limitations of speed of movement in my near 60 year old fingers, of balancing trying to play enough with pain in the joints of the hand ... I embrace the fact I can create my own musical lines and get something of a sound that is "me" with joy.

 

Several years back I took classical guitar lessons. The main "rule" with the teacher was that every note had to be played EXACTLY as it was on the page. Even rubato was a dirty word. The point of view that rubato was a major part of Segovias playing, and that without his influence making classical guitar popular enough that allowed the teacher to give lesons didn't seem to be accepted as valid. Stifling was not the word for it - it was like my musical self was chained hand and foot and locked up in prison.

[stein]

Is that something that comes with time too?

It does. ALL things to come, come with time.

 

You ask a lot of questions, DEEP questions. That's why I think you will find lots of good answers. Might not be the answers you thought, but that's the beauty of it. I guess that's why they call it the future.

 

Here is an andecdote: I once had this GF, living together. She said, "Why is it you are playing like that? It sounds bad. You don't do that when you play at gigs. Why are you playing that bad stuff around here?"

 

To which I replied, "Of corse it sounds bad. I don't know how to play it yet. It's practicing".

[FirstMeasure]

I like your perspective. I know I am not able to stretch as much as some players to get certain chords, but that can improve with time and warm ups and exercises. I know I am not fast, but I read somewhere that Les Paul urged guitar players to play slow and be accurate. He said that once you got the notes down in slow motion you could speed up gradually and one day you'd be awesome. I have a hard time taking that advice, but I know with practice/patience I could get faster and more accurate.

 

What I don't get is this: When I play Ordinary World, an easy pop song by Duran Duran, for instance, I play it on time and I play it with the right chords and notes. I have decent equipment. I hear what I play but I feel like I'm not in control of the sound. Does that make sense? Like I'm going through motions but not feeling, despite the fact that I love that song. When I sing I feel what I am doing and I can shove the emotion into the notes and I like what I hear out of my body, but I can't do that with my guitar and it makes me mad. I feel like it isn't an extension of me, as an instrument should be. Is that something that comes with time too?

Does that come with time? I'd have to say yes and no. The more comfortable you get with a song and the mechanics of it the more you'll be able to put feeling into it. But I don't think you'll ever feel it like your own material. But then that's not necessarily true either. I've written a hand full of songs I'd play in front of people, and I feel a connection with those songs that I don't get with a typical cover tune. But then there's songs I've been playing since I first learned that are just as a part of me as my own songs.

[Rabs]

I like your perspective. I know I am not able to stretch as much as some players to get certain chords, but that can improve with time and warm ups and exercises. I know I am not fast, but I read somewhere that Les Paul urged guitar players to play slow and be accurate. He said that once you got the notes down in slow motion you could speed up gradually and one day you'd be awesome. I have a hard time taking that advice, but I know with practice/patience I could get faster and more accurate.

 

What I don't get is this: When I play Ordinary World, an easy pop song by Duran Duran, for instance, I play it on time and I play it with the right chords and notes. I have decent equipment. I hear what I play but I feel like I'm not in control of the sound. Does that make sense? Like I'm going through motions but not feeling, despite the fact that I love that song. When I sing I feel what I am doing and I can shove the emotion into the notes and I like what I hear out of my body, but I can't do that with my guitar and it makes me mad. I feel like it isn't an extension of me, as an instrument should be. Is that something that comes with time too?

Yeah.. these are deep questions your asking as do I sometimes..

 

And theres no real answer.. Its different for everyone..

 

For me I have that issue with my voice.. ive never been comfortable with it.. its not that i cant sing, i just dont like the tone of my voice. The thing is when im having fun and just singing along with friends or in the car or something I think I sound really good.. BUT when I try singing my own music, I just HATE it, I guess cos its all more serious when your recording.

 

As for guitar.. Yeah I reckon it comes with time that you will feel that its part of you and you will have that connection.. However what I have learned is that as much as we can push ourselves to learn new things some people will connect with certain songs more because their style connects with the song more.. If your trying to play something that just isnt your style you need to learn to adapt it.

 

And I think thats the challenge.. You have to try and learn as many techniques as you can with guitar, not all of them will suit or fit you.. But you need to go through the motions of trying in order to find out. Some people seem to get lucky and find "their style" early on.

 

Ive met players that sounded like Jimi Hendrix after just a few years of playing and I had one friend who knew all of the technical stuff behind music, he could work out a note or chord in seconds.. But he had NO rhythm at all and after years and years he gave up cos as much as he wanted to he just couldnt play anything in time?

 

I myself have been playing on and off since I was about 12 and am now nearly 40... Ive always wanted to be as fast as someone like Slash cos I love what he plays.. But my fingers just dont seem capable of that speed (frustratingly).. I even took lessons a while back to help try and learn new techniques but I hated that as the more I tried to learn from someone else the less I sounded like myself and the less I enjoyed playing so I gave the lessons up and just went back to what I was happy doing. There are no real short cuts to this, it just takes time and alot of patience (and painful fingers :)).

 

(and its also a bit annoying when you see 16 year old kids on youtube that are playing in a style you have been trying to play your whole life ;))

[MissouriPicker]

Another way to look at our own limitations-----Perhaps Keith Richards can't play the intro to (for example) "Satisfaction" the same way you do. Maybe your an amatuer, maybe a pro. Maybe you have great skills, equal to Richards, or limited skills. Either way, the two of you will not do it identical. Different feeling to the music, different ears interpreting the music, different tone, varying techniques to play the same notes. Different hands, fingers, amps, cables, dials on the amps. Probably most of all, different human beings. I just think we put too much importance on needing to sound like the original recording, etc. For all of his skills, there are discussions in this forum where people think Richards can't play the double stops like Chuck Berry, and he probably can't. Not saying he can't play them as well or as easily as Berry. I'm saying he can't play them "like" Berry. I bet he couldn 't play that intro to "Pretty Woman" like Roy Orbison either, and it has nothing to do with Keith's ability. ........Certainly, we want to play something as good as we can. I think we should always be wanting to improve. Yet, I've recorded guitar tracks 6-7 times because I wasn't hearing the feeling I wanted the music to have. Someone else would say "that sounds pretty cool," but I heard it as too happy, too sad, too not what I'm looking for.

I think that many years ago I fully understood that I was not going to be the next Johnny Cash or Neil Diamond. The talent was never there to start with and neither was the ability to mimic their voices. I have to be who I am and you have to be who you are. There's a lot of good in just being "you."

[RaysEpiphone]

I like your perspective. I know I am not able to stretch as much as some players to get certain chords, but that can improve with time and warm ups and exercises. I know I am not fast, but I read somewhere that Les Paul urged guitar players to play slow and be accurate. He said that once you got the notes down in slow motion you could speed up gradually and one day you'd be awesome. I have a hard time taking that advice, but I know with practice/patience I could get faster and more accurate.

 

What I don't get is this: When I play Ordinary World, an easy pop song by Duran Duran, for instance, I play it on time and I play it with the right chords and notes. I have decent equipment. I hear what I play but I feel like I'm not in control of the sound. Does that make sense? Like I'm going through motions but not feeling, despite the fact that I love that song. When I sing I feel what I am doing and I can shove the emotion into the notes and I like what I hear out of my body, but I can't do that with my guitar and it makes me mad. I feel like it isn't an extension of me, as an instrument should be. Is that something that comes with time too?

 

Perspective,

1.

a. A view or vista.

b. A mental view or outlook: "It is useful occasionally to look at the past to gain a perspective on the present" (Fabian Linden).

 

2. The appearance of objects in depth as perceived by normal binocular vision.

 

3.

a. The relationship of aspects of a subject to each other and to a whole: a perspective of history; a need to view the problem in the proper perspective.

b. Subjective evaluation of relative significance; a point of view: the perspective of the displaced homemaker.

c. The ability to perceive things in their actual interrelations or comparative importance: tried to keep my perspective throughout the crisis.

 

4. The technique of representing three-dimensional objects and depth relationships on a two-dimensional surface.

 

adj.

Of, relating to, seen, or represented in perspective

 

Bet you never knew there was any proper english to playing a guitar! LOLZ! To bad I didn't do better in high school english class, I may have a bit hight relation to being a guitar player now.

 

"Sonic's" is how it "sound's" Izzy. More technical into the gear/setting's/room ect that was used, the "approach" of how it was played is more of the "hand's/finger's" of the player.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXQLyzeysGU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tun029Pz-tQ

[FirstMeasure]

Hey Rabs, That's exactly where I was with my voice. It wasn't that I couldn't sing, heck I was Teachers Aide in Chorus and Choir in High School. But I was a bass singer in the choir, so when I tried to sing alone I could hear my voice and quite frankly didn't like it. I certainly had some technique to work on, but the biggest problem was getting used to what I sounded like and what my voice was suited to.

 

With voice there some definite and obvious physical limitations. What you said about learning technique is very close to how I look at it. I probably use two handed tapping to make the audience laugh more than actually use in a song or show off, like I'll rip off a few lick when someone is coming up to open mic to do a mellow song. But then we play "Beat It" and I have to do it for real, which kind of bothers me 'cause a lot of people look at tapping as a last ditch effort to impress. But I have to be able to do it or I can't play some people favorite songs. Which is the only real joy you get our of cover tunes. It's like an honor to have someone like your playing enough to ask for their favorite song. If they don't like you they don't want to hear you do their favorite stuff. I'm sure they'd rather hear Keith Richards play Honky Tonk Woman, but they're not in town so I try to be the next best thing.

 

I think the phrase "Learning Technique" scares people away from learning technique. It sounds like they have to go to school and take a test or something. Learning a new technique could be as easy as controlling your forearm better during simple strumming patters or difficult as Hybrid Picking. A Technique is just the way you play or approach your instrument. Using left hand fingers to deaden string you don't want to ring is a technique. Even Sid Vicious had a technique for playing the bass.

 

RaysEpiphone - We're talking about definition 3b and 3c.

[FirstMeasure]

One more thought on the Cover Artist vs Original Artist. If you're an original artist that wrote an album full of songs and you're ready to take them on the road, you need a cover artist to play those songs the way you want them played. If everyone centered exclusively on their own thing David Bowie would never have been able to flesh out his very personal and singular style of music. Where would Frank Zappa and Stevie Wonder be if they couldn't find musicians to play the parts the way they want and need them to be played?

 

{edit}Darn it, I meant to edit my last post and add this to it.

[bonzoboy]

That is an excellent point first measure.There was a Canadian musician who played with the popular Canadian band Cilliwack.His name was Brian "Loud" McLeod. Brian had made an incredible album with a great Canadian female singer D'Arcy (OOPS I forgot her surname but I believe it was Mills)anyway he played all the instruments and called his "band" and the album "The Headpins",even though it was just D'Arcy and him.Much to their surprise the album went Gold practically overnight-it eventually went Platinum in Canada-and he was sent scrambling to find musicians who could play with his incredible command of each respective instrument.He finally did find a suitable bunch-after weeks of exhaustive auditions-and got them on the road to play to sell-out crowds in every venue they appeared in.Brian couldn't play in the band due to his commitments with Chilliwack.Sadly Brian died in the mid-90s from inoperable cancer.I believe that Brian's Headpins album is still available in CD format and is well worth checking out.He was a great guitarist,drummer,bass player,keyboard player and could play any brass or woodwind instrument.

 

He was at the time Newfoundland's favourite native son and the whole island was devastated when he passed away.I knew him from hanging around the same music store on Saturdays-a lot of local musicians would drop by there on a Saturday just to chew the fat and he was just approachable after he reached stardom as he was when he was slogging away in local clubs lugging his own gear up over many flights of stairs etc. just like the rest of us.

[RaysEpiphone]

Hey Rabs, That's exactly where I was with my voice. It wasn't that I couldn't sing, heck I was Teachers Aide in Chorus and Choir in High School. But I was a bass singer in the choir, so when I tried to sing alone I could hear my voice and quite frankly didn't like it. I certainly had some technique to work on, but the biggest problem was getting used to what I sounded like and what my voice was suited to.

 

With voice there some definite and obvious physical limitations. What you said about learning technique is very close to how I look at it. I probably use two handed tapping to make the audience laugh more than actually use in a song or show off, like I'll rip off a few lick when someone is coming up to open mic to do a mellow song. But then we play "Beat It" and I have to do it for real, which kind of bothers me 'cause a lot of people look at tapping as a last ditch effort to impress. But I have to be able to do it or I can't play some people favorite songs. Which is the only real joy you get our of cover tunes. It's like an honor to have someone like your playing enough to ask for their favorite song. If they don't like you they don't want to hear you do their favorite stuff. I'm sure they'd rather hear Keith Richards play Honky Tonk Woman, but they're not in town so I try to be the next best thing.

 

I think the phrase "Learning Technique" scares people away from learning technique. It sounds like they have to go to school and take a test or something. Learning a new technique could be as easy as controlling your forearm better during simple strumming patters or difficult as Hybrid Picking. A Technique is just the way you play or approach your instrument. Using left hand fingers to deaden string you don't want to ring is a technique. Even Sid Vicious had a technique for playing the bass.

 

RaysEpiphone - We're talking about definition 3b and 3c.

 

Ummm, yeah I see your point here bud but if used in context's to Izzy's question it's all of the definition's of a word that is creative in nature, prospective is one of those word's. A prospective is entirely up to the one perceiving and or receiving the idea or thought, the act of thinking is based on how some one see's a subject as truth or false.

[FirstMeasure]

That is an excellent point first measure.There was a Canadian musician who played with the popular Canadian band Cilliwack.His name was Brian "Loud" McLeod. Brian had made an incredible album with a great Canadian female singer D'Arcy (OOPS I forgot her surname but I believe it was Mills)anyway he played all the instruments and called his "band" and the album "The Headpins",even though it was just D'Arcy and him.Much to their surprise the album went Gold practically overnight-it eventually went Platinum in Canada-and he was sent scrambling to find musicians who could play with his incredible command of each respective instrument.He finally did find a suitable bunch-after weeks of exhaustive auditions-and got them on the road to play to sell-out crowds in every venue they appeared in.Brian couldn't play in the band due to his commitments with Chilliwack.Sadly Brian died in the mid-90s from inoperable cancer.I believe that Brian's Headpins album is still available in CD format and is well worth checking out.He was a great guitarist,drummer,bass player,keyboard player and could play any brass or woodwind instrument.

 

He was at the time Newfoundland's favourite native son and the whole island was devastated when he passed away.I knew him from hanging around the same music store on Saturdays-a lot of local musicians would drop by there on a Saturday just to chew the fat and he was just approachable after he reached stardom as he was when he was slogging away in local clubs lugging his own gear up over many flights of stairs etc. just like the rest of us.

Very cool, I checked him out. That's exactly what I was talking about, too. Guys who can play other people stuff are dismissed until they're needed. LOL

 

One of my very favorite things to do is help someone flesh out song ideas, specially when it's someone struggling with spoething they want to hear but just can't make their fingers do it. "Hey, my fingers can do that, and I'm not busy writing the next Stairway to Heaven, so let me help. It's actually more gratifying to me than writing my own song.