Hogeye Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 This is what I have on the LG-2.....okay I can see the argument about the dowel because that would explain the lack of top grain visible in the extra hole, but if the hole was drilled and filled after the bridge plate was attached, how did they cut the dowel below flush with the bridge plate? ....and if the string end ball is sitting on the dowel (which goes through the top to the bridge) instead of the bridge plate, how is that not the same as sitting on and pulling against the bridge.....I always thought the bridge plate was there to support and disburse string tension on the inside of a steel string guitar, unlike a classical where the tension is low enough that a glued bridge can support it from the outside of the box. Excellent photo. The problem with the dowel is just what you stated so very well.The dowel was never designed to hold the pressure of a string. After the top is glued to the ribs it would be difficult to trim off any excess. That's probably why they are to short rather than to long. You make an excellent point. If the ball is resting on the dowel instead of the bridge plate would that exert pressure on the dowel and then to the bridge? Probably so. The dowel is glued to the side of the top and the bridgae plate. I would think that isn't enough to keep it from transfering pressure to the bridge. I have no way of knowing that. The string ball should never be in position to touch the dowel. That is just wrong. Gibson needs to fix this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PickitPaul Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 The string ball should never be in position to touch the dowel. That is just wrong. Gibson needs to fix this. Yeah but will they? Second owner here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duluthdan Posted April 18, 2013 Author Share Posted April 18, 2013 Let's remember, the original thread started because Dan's guitar sounded funny. So if that's not the problem, what is? Rich After two weeks in the case with slack D and G strings, I just couldn't stand not playing this guitar any longer - took it out, tuned up the two strings... and no more "zoing". So I'm still puzzled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TommyK Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 I'm wondering if this isn't a bridge alignment hole. The dowel likely goes through to the underside of the bridge. Whatever it's intended purpose, the subject bridge plate at the head of this thread appears to be in a precarious state. I think this is a warranty issue. GIBSON! Explain it or replace it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobouz Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 The string is NOT resting on the top. The top will NOT be damaged by this situation. I appreciate the information you've provided re the very odd dowel arrangement, but this does not change the fact that the bridge plate cannot do it's critical job and distribute string pressure if the ball end of a string is not making contact. A risk of damage still exists, whether the ball is pressing directly against the top or this very funky dowel arrangement. I guess I'm on a bit of a crusade here, and wanted to sound an alarm from my very first post in this thread. I consider properly seating the ball end against the bridge plate a very important part of ongoing guitar maintenence. Anyone out there who has encountered a string not seated at all on the bridge plate should take steps to correct it. Personally, I would take the pressure off a compromised string immediately until I rectified the situation. I have offered quick solutions to help others address this in a timely manner, which would allow the use of the instrument until more long term options are assessed. Bottom line: Yes, your top and bridge may hold just fine for years, but it may not. Why take a chance and allow the improper pressure to continue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hogeye Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 I appreciate the information you've provided re the very odd dowel arrangement, but this does not change the fact that the bridge plate cannot do it's critical job and distribute string pressure if the ball end of a string is not making contact. A risk of damage still exists, whether the ball is pressing directly against the top or this very funky dowel arrangement. I guess I'm on a bit of a crusade here, and wanted to sound an alarm from my very first post in this thread. I consider properly seating the ball end against the bridge plate a very important part of ongoing guitar maintenence. Anyone out there who has encountered a string not seated at all on the bridge plate should take steps to correct it. Personally, I would take the pressure off a compromised string immediately until I rectified the situation. I have offered quick solutions to help others address this in a timely manner, which would allow the use of the instrument until more long term options are assessed. Bottome line: Yes, your top and bridge may hold just fine for years, but it may not. Why take a chance and allow the improper pressure to continue? I don't understand you folks. Why don't you call Gibson and ask them to correct the problem? They already agreed to look at Duluthdan's guitar. The good folks at customer service will probably deal with this on a case by case basis. If you're waiting for them to call you please let me know how that works out for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hogeye Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 One last word(I hope). Go to the Stew Mac catalog and look under bridge tools. They have a wonderful little device called a "plate mate". It will cure your problems in a couple of minutes and it only costs $24.18. Maybe Gibson should should buy a couple of boxes until they can fix the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Nilppeznaf Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 What ever is going on...I have seen no other bridges with these dowels in them ???? I do not have the photo of my HB TV plate any longer...but it looked nothing like these examples where you can clearly see it is a dowel.... it looks completely like an indentation into the plate..as others have testified to also. You can see no dowel at all...there are no gaps or different colourations in the woods. Can someone take a pic of theirs that are the same ? From Dan's first pic in this thread..it also looks like there is no dowel to be seen.... but I suppose what else can it be? But again...I can find no similar pics of this practice on other bridge plates anywhere on the internet. And it seems the vintage Gibsons do not have this issue also... and it is a Bozeman practice? Bottom line is ...it's bad practice....there are many examples of bad Gibson bridge plates from the past...I thought Bozeman was making some of the best Gibsons ever...but this is very worrying to me. Easy fix or not..it simply should not be an issue. i do not feel this issue has been explained at all as yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobouz Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 I don't understand you folks. Why don't you call Gibson and ask them to correct the problem? They already agreed to look at Duluthdan's guitar. The good folks at customer service will probably deal with this on a case by case basis. If you're waiting for them to call you please let me know how that works out for you. Since you referenced my post, what in the heck don't you understand Hogeye? My intent to share helpful information and spread the word to people who may not realize they really need to "look under the hood"? Witness the number of people, just in this thread, who have never even looked at the bridge plate of their guitar. And good grief, look at the condition of some of those bridge plates! It's a very good thing this topic is seeing the light of day, and hopefully further damage can be prevented for a number of folks. I get that you know people at Gibson and feel the need to explain & defend their practices. Nothing wrong with that. But why the effort to stifle or marginalize important conversation? Instead, continue to share helpful information, such as the link to a Stew-Mac fix. It looks like a great temporary fix, and I would pop one on in a heartbeat if I had one of the butchered bridge plates we've seen exhibited here. On the other hand, should a "plate-mate" really be necessary? Of course not if Gibson employed a superior design or executed their construction process with greater attention to detail - and if everyone regularly checked to assure their strings were properly seated on the bridge plate. I spent many years in the '70s buying otherwise forgotten guitars at flea markets, and brought them back to life in order to eventually trade up to a Gibson, Martin, or Guild. What did I find over & over again? Chewed up bridge plates. The inherent problem which compromises the integrity of the instrument is a no-brainer, as is the fix, but first you have to be aware of the issue. Historically it is clear that many people never pick up this basic but key bit of information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 No one here is disputing that. You are exactly right. I'm just trying to tell the folks that your top in not on any danger because of this defect in the building process. Fair enough. I misunderstood what you were saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Nilppeznaf Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 I tell you guys. the only reason this is not causing a major uproar is because people are not looking at their bridge plates. Forget bleedin laminated bridges..which make no difference what so ever to the integrity of the build of a guitar...and will probably be stronger in the long run. This is really a worrying issue for me... mainly because I am seriously thinking of acquiring a new Gibson. So lets say I order one over the internet...my only option here in Ireland. It arrives and I check the plate to find it has these bloody holes in it.... like some basicaly cutting thru where the pin hole is... I need to return it...this is a cost to me...i do not need to be worrying over this do I. There is no authorised Gibson repair shop in the country...so that option is also not available. Now any Bozeman built guitar needs to be checked for this defect... lets say 30% have it...when buying used you need to take into consideration that the plate will need some work !!!! Hogeye mentions this issue may have been a very important mitigating factor into why Ren left the company... are you guys getting how serious this is yet ? If indeed this has been the practice for a long period of time...and there are lots of plates like this...Gibson just went back to having a bad name in the guitar world concerning build quality. I don't think I am over reacting ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blindboygrunt Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 a new gibson? thought you were skint :-l i'll be having a look under my bonnet (hood) next string change . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 Hogeye mentions this issue may have been a very important mitigating factor into why Ren left the company... are you guys getting how serious this is yet ? If indeed this has been the practice for a long period of time...and there are lots of plates like this...Gibson just went back to having a bad name in the guitar world concerning build quality. I don't think I am over reacting ? I hate to admit it, but I agree with you. I will not buy another Bozeman Gibson until I am confident this has been resolved, and it certainly means I would not buy a used Gibson without a photograph of the bridge plate, which may be hard for many people to do. This is not something you should have to worry about when buying a new or non-vintage guitar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Nilppeznaf Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 The easiest way for folks to check their plate is...use a digital camera..or phone with a flash..and simply place it in the sound hole and take a snap of the plate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobouz Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 This is really a worrying issue for me... mainly because I am seriously thinking of acquiring a new Gibson. So lets say I order one over the internet...my only option here in Ireland. It arrives and I check the plate to find it has these bloody holes in it.... like some basicaly cutting thru where the pin hole is... I need to return it...this is a cost to me...i do not need to be worrying over this do I. There is no authorised Gibson repair shop in the country...so that option is also not available. Del - In the states there are some internet dealers who would probably be willing to inspect the guitar before shipment. I'm thinking of places like Sweetwater or Wildwood, since they unbox their instruments to photograph. Maybe there's a dealer in Europe who would do this for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Nilppeznaf Posted April 20, 2013 Share Posted April 20, 2013 Well this issue has been of much interest to me. So I decided to watch the full factory tour of Bozeman available on youtube. The hole in question is still a bit of a mysterious fellow. But I now understand Hogeye's posts trying to explain the build process much more. When making the top for each acoustic guitar ...well before the guitar is actually put together.... 2 holes are drilled in the top which are center line guides. One above the sound hole where the neck will cover..and one below the sound hole where the bridge will cover. this is a center line guide for the whole build process of the guitar. The tops are then braced..along with the backs, separately of course...and the bridge plate is fitted between the braces...each model has a specific bracing pattern and the plate will simply fit the bracing pattern. No hole is in the plate as of yet. The guitars are then put together..and finished..before the bridges are affixed. Tellingly .... maybe ?????...... one part of the process is missing from this part of the video...Part 8 No holes are in the plate until now. But when you watch the bridge being fitted...the hole in the top has been filled with a dowel.. this is not shown in the video. I surmise that the hole already in the top from the start of the build process, is then drilled thru again AND through the plate..to insert the dowel closing the hole off in the top. It seems in more modern builds..i would say 2010 onwards..these dowels are made short and give the impression of just an indentation in the plate when viewed. Older builds..it seems the dowels go all the way flush with the plate. From the process and where the hole is located..you get the impression that it would not be possible to fit the bridge and have this center line hole interfere with the actual pin holes. The only way this is happening is that some guitars are having the hole placed in relation to the guitar being a long scale model...when infact it is a short scale model... as Hogeye stated. I would hope this is quite a rare defect in the build process... but from the replies..it may not be the case. The photos of earlier models that clearly show the dowel as a different colour and flush with the plate... I would not expect to see this in more recent builds...and hopefully some kind of checks are being carried out that some hasn't fecked up !!!!!!! This is still a major issue for me...... and we have not seen the last of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Nilppeznaf Posted April 20, 2013 Share Posted April 20, 2013 I just realised also this Center Line locating hole does not explain other members plates..where these holes are totally off center ! and seem to be quite random ????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Del Nilppeznaf Posted April 20, 2013 Share Posted April 20, 2013 Sorry for multiple posts but I also realised..if you look at the size of these holes...and the bridge is going to cover them..then a bridge on say the J35..which is what...1inch wide ?...you would be lucky..not to have it interfere with the pin holes? hmmmmmmm? ??? curiouser and curiouser. Something is amiss ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duluthdan Posted April 20, 2013 Author Share Posted April 20, 2013 Viewing some of these segments one can get an appreciation of the importance of these holes in establishing the guitars centerline, which, I imagine, is crucial to the build. At 2:30 of this video you can see one step where these are used. In the video prior to this, at about 3:30, you can see where the CNC machine actually cuts the holes in the top. I imagine that its much further down the process that the bridge plate is drilled, and the dowel plug is then used to fill up the guide hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted April 20, 2013 Share Posted April 20, 2013 Older builds..it seems the dowels go all the way flush with the plate. I have 2007 and 2010 guitars, and on neither one does the dowel go all the way through the plate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bram99 Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 I finally got around to taking a pic with the D and G string off. For those wondering why some of us are concerned about this, maybe this helps. There is no material between the mystery hole and one of the string holes.....the string pressure is dirrectly on the bottom of the bridge through this dowel plg and not on the bridge plate..... I sent this picture to gibson service and they sent me a RMA to ship them the guitar.....good maybe it's covered and they also see the problem....oh but...I then told them that I did replace my pick guard and they indicated that any modification to the guitar voids the warranty....awesome! What does a replaced pick guard have to do with an incorrectly located hole in the bridge plate? Anyone know where I can buy a stock pickguard so I can replace it and then have Gibson fix the big hole in my bridge plate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeljohnr Posted April 22, 2013 Share Posted April 22, 2013 I finally got around to taking a pic with the D and G string off. For those wondering why some of us are concerned about this, maybe this helps. There is no material between the mystery hole and one of the string holes.....the string pressure is dirrectly on the bottom of the bridge through this dowel plg and not on the bridge plate..... I sent this picture to gibson service and they sent me a RMA to ship them the guitar.....good maybe it's covered and they also see the problem....oh but...I then told them that I did replace my pick guard and they indicated that any modification to the guitar voids the warranty....awesome! What does a replaced pick guard have to do with an incorrectly located hole in the bridge plate? Anyone know where I can buy a stock pickguard so I can replace it and then have Gibson fix the big hole in my bridge plate? If they void your warranty on the bridge plate because of you replacing the pick guard, there's a bigger problem than the misplaced holes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duluthdan Posted April 23, 2013 Author Share Posted April 23, 2013 If they void your warranty on the bridge plate because of you replacing the pick guard, there's a bigger problem than the misplaced holes. Not good. I had the dealer install my Trance Audio pickup - I suppose that's going to be an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blindboygrunt Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 finally had a look inside my j45 historic 2006 ... the hole is there but not near the string holes .. phew hope you guys all get sorted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bram99 Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Now I am faced with a dilemma....like i said earlier, I swapped out my pickguard on my less 6 month old LG-2 (which is now my favorite guitar) and i have the mystery hole right up against the bridge pin hole (photo above). Gibson customer service, although courteous and responsive, is only citing that "technically any modification to the guitar will void the warranty." I have been given a return merchandise authorization, but have been told that if they get it back with a replacement pickguard it would be a problem and out of warranty. So do I...? 1. Send the guitar across country as is and hope they fix it 2. Replace the pickguard with a factory one (if I can find another and is a pain in the butt) and then send the guitar and hope they fix it 3. Count the warranty as void and fix it myself. I have bridge plate material and a small triangle or rectangle glued over the dowel hole (between the D & G string holes) would keep the string balls redirected to solid bridge plate material 4. Count the warranty as void and buy and use one of these StewMac bridge savers.... http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Special_tools_for_Bridges/BridgeSaver.html Has anyone successfully elevated issues with Gibson Customer Service, to be able to get past the standard...any modification with void the warranty? Before i ship it from CA to MT, I would like to have them acknowledge that this is a manufacturing error that has nothing to do with an after market pickguard. Any legal types here familiar with the provisions of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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