surfpup Posted December 19, 2013 Share Posted December 19, 2013 I know nothing about capacitors except that the one on my Tele helps keep the treble when I turn down the volume. Actually that is the treble-bleed cap located on the volume pot. The cap on the tone pot is the one that is hotly debated in this and thousands of other Internet discussions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdgm Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 Actually that is the treble-bleed cap located on the volume pot. The cap on the tone pot is the one that is hotly debated in this and thousands of other Internet discussions. Gaah! I've blundered again! This hole's getting deeper - I'm off! Many thanks for all the good advice folks and Happy holidays to all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valeriy Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 Hmm. Should I get a bunch of these orange drops and oil-filled caps and try stuff? No, it sounds just great. Couldn't possibly get any better. Could it? You said earlier its the "best-sounding passive vol/tone circuit I have ever heard in any guitar I've owned." If you like it the way it is then why change it? Actually that is the treble-bleed cap located on the volume pot. The cap on the tone pot is the one that is hotly debated in this and thousands of other Internet discussions. Gaah! I've blundered again! This hole's getting deeper - I'm off! Many thanks for all the good advice folks and Happy holidays to all! Hello guys :) Certainly,Jdgm, one more opinion of the neutral (impartial) person would be interesting. Although, you need to have, of course, a certain mood to make the experience in your nice sounding guitar. As for me, I have a similar situation . I did not have such experience in my guitars, in particular, because of active electronics in them. Whereby the dependence on caps type is rather minimum (or does not exist), maybe I'll check it too on my active guitars. But I did these experiments in other devices, these caps (PIOs or orange drops) really give a different sound in amplifiers and preamps and it is desirable to know where it will be correct to put these capacitors. For example, PIOs being excellent in guitar preamps, however, can be much worse in Hi-FI preamps for music, record… here it is better to use other types of caps (CL-21, perhaps, orange drops etc.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badbluesplayer Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 Here's my take. The difference in caps has to do with how they react to pick attack. Not how they react to testing them in steady state conditions. Maybe you'd call that transient response or something. So throw out the scopes and stop listening for differences in "tone." Listen for differences in "transient response" or whatever. In purely scientific terms ( ), I'd say PIO caps have more "doink" than other caps. That's what I'm going with. They have more doink per decible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valeriy Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 Thanks, Badbluesplayer. After your words concerning attack, it seems, I understand the reason for the differences PIOs and other caps in guitars. In the direct signal paths as it is in HI-FI devices the PIOs, perhaps, spoil the said attack because of “doink” (inertia ?) in treble frequencies, but in guitars these PIOs are put in other paths, the offshoot to the ground, i.e. non direct signal path and the effect comes out vice versa. Though it is an assumption. And in guitar preamps, perhaps,in the direct signal paths the PIOs soften the guitar sound doing its more pleasant, in turn, metallized polyester caps (CL-21) can make the guitar sound too harsh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 Here's my take. The difference in caps has to do with how they react to pick attack. Not how they react to testing them in steady state conditions. Maybe you'd call that transient response or something. So throw out the scopes and stop listening for differences in "tone." Listen for differences in "transient response" or whatever. In purely scientific terms ( ), I'd say PIO caps have more "doink" than other caps. That's what I'm going with. They have more doink per decible. This reminds me of the time I heard a guy say "I love this pedal because it's only $200, completely transparent and doesn't color my tone." Hilarious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surfpup Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 This reminds me of the time I heard a guy say "I love this pedal because it's only $200, completely transparent and doesn't color my tone." Hilarious. Now that's true bypass! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 Now that's true bypass! Sadly the opposite is fact. A true bypass will additionally load the guitar output with the cable following the pedal. Therefore true bypasses in FX pedals don't cause, but give way to intense sound colouring. A built-in line driver which remains operative with the effect off does nothing to the tone, e. g. in all the Boss except volumes/expressions and most of Ibanez/Maxxon pedals. In case of using active guitars, the sound deterioration caused by true bypasses will be minimized. I guess this is the very reason for the users of EMG pickups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
surfpup Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 Sadly the opposite is fact. A true bypass will additionally load the guitar output with the cable following the pedal. Therefore true bypasses in FX pedals don't cause, but give way to intense sound colouring. A built-in line driver which remains operative with the effect off does nothing to the tone, e. g. in all the Boss except volumes/expressions and most of Ibanez/Maxxon pedals. In case of using active guitars, the sound deterioration caused by true bypasses will be minimized. I guess this is the very reason for the users of EMG pickups. Okay, but my comment was a lot funnier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btoth76 Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 Hello! My good old Dad is an electro-technician. He never skips the opportunity to point out to this: "Musicians! They are all lunatics! They hear things that are not there! They use scientifical terms without knowing anything about them!" Sometimes, I can convince Him (like in case of PIOs), but most of the times, He just laughs at me. "Brightness? What brightness? Tell me values!" - He says. :D Anyways...just dropped in to say: Merry Christmas and Many New Guitars to You all! Cheers... Bence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 You should add "The sonic superiority of Nitrocellulose lacquers". In contrary to all the other widely used tonewoods, ash timbers have next to no cross-linked cellulose fibres. This gives them a behaviour similar to an arc, and also is the reason why ash is kept from abrasion mainly by the finish. I also don't know of ash use for hollowbodies whereas the tonal qualities as solid tonewood for bodies are extraordinarily nice, for guitars as well as for basses. So the finish on ash timbers may have a certain influence on sound characteristics as it adds a significant amount of rigidity and stiffness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 Okay, but my comment was a lot funnier. Sorry, obviously didn't get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krock Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 Hello! My good old Dad is an electro-technician. He never skips the opportunity to point out to this: "Musicians! They are all lunatics! They hear things that are not there! They use scientifical terms without knowing anything about them!" Sometimes, I can convince Him (like in case of PIOs), but most of the times, He just laughs at me. "Brightness? What brightness? Tell me values!" - He says. :D Anyways...just dropped in to say: Merry Christmas and Many New Guitars to You all! Cheers... Bence My fathers the exact same and is quick to point out any floors in any musicians argument Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capmaster Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 Hello! My good old Dad is an electro-technician. He never skips the opportunity to point out to this: "Musicians! They are all lunatics! They hear things that are not there! They use scientifical terms without knowing anything about them!" Sometimes, I can convince Him (like in case of PIOs), but most of the times, He just laughs at me. "Brightness? What brightness? Tell me values!" - He says. :D Anyways...just dropped in to say: Merry Christmas and Many New Guitars to You all! Cheers... Bence Brightness is in the amplitude and phase frequency range of all the components between fingers respectively picks and ears, from strings (!) to speakers. Among all these components, the capacitors in the guitars are the parts with the response which is closest to the ideal. No inductance, i. e. magnetic pickup coil in this case, can compete anyhow - their DC resistance had to be zero Ohms, please remember that. All that counts among these capacitors is their capacitance value. Everything else is dupery and imagination. My fathers the exact same and is quick to point out any floors in any musicians argument I am musician, and very rarely heard valid arguments from another ones, but lots of opinions and justifications for having paid the price to pay for hundreds of high-quality capacitors for a single mediocre one. But don't worry, these expensive mediocre caps are a thousandfold better capacitor than any real existing, wound coil can be as an inductor. To create the perfect inductor, you need an active circuit called gyrator which simulates an ideal inductance with - guess what? A capacitor of high quality, probably too good for many guitarists... I think these relatively poor, but for guitars sufficient capacitors cost that much since they are hard to find nowadays. This is not valid for electrolytics which still do have quality issues worldwide. I found them by ears in several phantom-powered mics. They caused pumping and rumbling, sometimes even crackling. Remember there are 48 volts DC but just a few millivolts signal AC on the same cap... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badbluesplayer Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 This reminds me of the time I heard a guy say "I love this pedal because it's only $200, completely transparent and doesn't color my tone." Hilarious. Whaddya not going for that explanation? I'll figure out something else then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Posted December 20, 2013 Share Posted December 20, 2013 I put these little beauties in my R8 today.... There's been a handful of threads about PIO caps recently. I have swapped out caps in my pedal and amp projects before and have always heard differences. A couple of recent threads had people saying that it had made no difference in a guitar. I decided it was about time I dropped the Spragues that Flight959 gave me (thanks mate, much appreciciated) into my R8. It has made a huge difference! had to re-eq my amp right off! I had got the bass to 9 o'clock and the mid and treble to 3 o'clock before. Now this is harsh and shrill and clangy with the Spragues, I ended up much closer to all three at 12 o'clock. I notice the time that each note in a chord sustains for has equalised where before, the high notes were dying out first. Harmonically, the guitar is more alive. I can now have my guitar volumes at 8 as a start point where before, 8 was getting a little muddy (50's wiring, audio taper pots). This, frankly, is what I expected based on my own experience using PIOs as tone caps in germanium fuzz and amp tone circuits. I'm convinced that any change in cap will make some difference, even to the same type of cap. I can't help but think that some people simply can't hear it, it is strangely subtle and profound at the same time. Is it the high gainers, where these things matter far less, if at all? Is it just some peoples perception of sound? Or is it possible that microscopic ceramic caps sometimes just sound exactly the same as a pio cap, even just with a slight variance in tolerance not to mention an entirely difference chemical make up? If you can hear a difference between a guitar with ceramic and alnico pickups you can articulate a difference between ceramic and paper in oil tone capacitors. I did the Memphis circuit, 50's wiring with treble bleeds and the Luxe bees and I like it, warmer I guess. The tiny ceramic disc type caps that were stock in the LP Studio were you know, kinda ceramicy sounding, cooler, thinner. Depends on what you like now days because you do have a choice. Whereas way back when you didn't, there were pio caps, alnico mags, germanium this and that, da, da, da, da. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krock Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 Anyone happen to know if different caps make a difference if any, in a treble bleed circuit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Farnsbarns Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 Interestingly this thread now seems to show that a slight majority can/have heard a difference. I think this answers the thread title question quite nicely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 If you can hear a difference between a guitar with ceramic and alnico pickups you can articulate a difference between ceramic and paper in oil tone capacitors. But you can't hear the difference between a guitar with ceramic magnets and one with alnico magnets. The only difference you might be able to hear are the differences in magnetic power and density of magnetic field. The magnetic material makes no difference on the sound. Just like with capacitors. Interestingly this thread now seems to show that a slight majority can/have heard a difference. I think this answers the thread title question quite nicely. Consensuses is not verification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 To me the difference between PIO and Orange Drop is the difference between tube and solid state. You can actually see the difference when recorded and seen through spectrum analyzer Then let's see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Farnsbarns Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 But you I can't hear the difference between a guitar with ceramic magnets and one with alnico magnets. The only difference you I might be able to hear are the differences in magnetic power and density of magnetic field. Fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 Guitar players are silly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Farnsbarns Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 Guitar players are silly I laughed out loud at that! If it makes you feel any better my father adds material to the inside of sax and clarinet mouthpieces and then makes minute adjustment with a dremmel type tool. Swears he hears the difference. Oh, and by the way, I've never even considered the difference, or lack thereof, of different pup magnets. I was just playing silly buggers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Searcy Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 I laughed out loud at that! If it makes you feel any better my father adds material to the inside of sax and clarinet mouthpieces and then makes minute adjustment with a dremmel type tool. Swears he hears the difference. I don't know anything about wind instruments. I have ported and polished intake systems on cars though and can understand how clean wind flow can change performance. Might be the same for horns but I couldn't say. Just to be clear I will say, and not for the first time, that I'm not claiming people don't hear differences after swapping parts on their guitar. I'm just saying that the difference is not usually caused by what they think it is caused by. The only way to hear a difference by swapping the cap on your guitars passive tone control is if the cap is of a different value. I don't mean the value printed on the side witch is rarely correct on PIO caps. I mean its actual capacitance. Guitar players worship at the temple of toooone and mojo. They do not take kindly to having their dogma questioned. This leaves me to play the part of the heretic sometimes. But most of the time I just avoid these types of discussions all together. You can't reason a person out of a position that they weren't reasoned into. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Farnsbarns Posted December 21, 2013 Share Posted December 21, 2013 I don't know anything about wind instruments. I have ported and polished intake systems on cars though and can understand how clean wind flow can change performance. Might be the same for horns but I couldn't say. Just to be clear I will say, and not for the first time, that I'm not claiming people don't hear differences after swapping parts on their guitar. I'm just saying that the difference is not usually caused by what they think it is caused by. The only way to hear a difference by swapping the cap on your guitars passive tone control is if the cap is of a different value. I don't mean the value printed on the side witch is rarely correct on PIO caps. I mean its actual capacitance. Guitar players worship at the temple of toooone and mojo. They do not take kindly to having their dogma questioned. This leaves me to play the part of the heretic sometimes. But most of the time I just avoid these types of discussions all together. You can't reason a person out of a position that they weren't reasoned into. Ah, but I was reasoned in to it. I have seen evidence presented in a clear, concise, scientifically structured way; I have heard it, while being slightly sceptical, although less so than I would have been simply because Pippy, who I know, and who I am (almost) certain isn't stupid, already had his sceptism blown apart and I had to accept that, but I was still a little dubious, that's why I put them in, just to listen for myself and I CAN hear it. I accept that this could be some kind of psychosis but I really don't think it is. I certainly know what you mean about the tolerances in values and would happily put it down to that if I hadn't seen the article I linked a page or so back. That clearly shows a difference in the signal distortions of different cap types (not the frequency response which I utterly accept is unaffected) and I don't mean distortion in the way a lot of guitarists might assume, I mean the nonlinearities and hysteresis noted in the article. here it is again I could.definitely still be reasoned back the other way if someone presented me with any compelling facts or evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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