sbpark Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 I recently picked up a Casino. I've been wanting one of these for quite a while. Never owned a hollow or semi-hollow body, and my other guitars either have single coils or humbuckers. A local big box shop has had this Casino hanging on the wall for a LONG time, and every time I stepped foot in there I'd see if they still had it. Deicded the other day that it was time to pull the trigger. The only downside was the guitar did not feel great to play, but man did it sound good! The P90's just have a great gritty, fat, gnarly bite to them, perfect for Son Volt and Wilco type stuff, and for the more rockin' type stuff.(I guess I play a combination of old-school country and more modern alt-country type stuff). The nut was cut WAY too high, neck had no relief and was just a hot mess to play. Got them to knock off $100, and then had them work on the nut. Open chords no longer go sharp now and it's much nicer. Neck has relief in it now and the action is dead on to Epiphone/Gibson specs. I polished the frets up to a mirror finish and now bends are way nicer (from the factory the frets were very rough.) Here's how I have the guitar set up currently: Neck relief: .008" (Low E string fretted at first and 15th fret, measuring relief at the 7th fret Action at the 12th fret: Low E: 6/64th's High E: 4/64th's Action at the 15th fret with string depressed at the 1st fret: Low E: 5/64th's High E: 3/64th's Pickup height for each pickup when fretted @ 22nd fret: (can't really adjust these because they are dog-ear P90's, aside from shimming to raise the height I guess. Bridge is a little lower than spec, and neck is a little higher than spec.) Bridge low E: 3.5/64th's Bridge high E: 2.5/64th's Necl low E: 5/64th's Neck high E: 5/64th's My only concern is the bridge is about as low as it will go on the treble side to get the action to where it is now. Have slight buzzing heard when played unplugged, but none when it's plugged in, which is perfect. There's still room on the bass side of the bridge for adjustment. So given all the measurements above, and the fact that the bridge is max'd out and as low as it will go on the treble side, is this a neck angle issue? Should I be concerned about this or am I just being too picky? The guitar feels good, I just worry when one adjustment or parameter is max'd out one way or the other, not really leaving anymore room for adjustment down the road. I will admit I tend to be more of a Fender guy and am more familiar with setting them up, and messing with my Gibsons and Epiphones is pretty new to me. I've read a few things about Gibson/Epi neck angles being all over the place, but usually they seem to be in the other direction, resulting in the bridges being set way higher. Since I'm new to this type of guitar, I'm just looking to educate myself and determine if I should keep the guitar or take it back while I still have the option. I love a lot of things about this guitar, especially it's sound and love the look, and am really digging the gold sparkle finish. I'm not a modder, and prefer to leave things as they are unless they are causing an problem, and spend my time playing instead of modding, because I've learned my lesson in the past and end up going down the proverbial "rabbit hole" when it comes to "upgrades"! With that said, I'm not opposed to replacing something like the bridge, etc. if it will result in a better set-up, and better playing guitar. Any advice or suggestions is encouraged and appreciated. Thanks in advance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crust Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 Is the guitar uncomfortable to play or does it just plain sound bad with the way the string heights are set right now ? I'd say, you got a pretty nice guitar there, even if the strings are a bit high off the neck on the treble side. I'm not sure what your concern is with the neck angle. I do not believe the angle is as acute on an Epiphone as it is on a Gibson 14 degrees/17 degrees. I wouldn't worry about the neck angle as that's the way the 2 company's make guitar necks, without string trees, like Fender guitars have. Unless you believe the neck is somehow twisted causing uneven string height on bass and treble sides of the neck. If you lower the bridge any further, more "fret slap" will be evident. I'd just leave it as is, unless you can see that the neck is slightly warped, bent, bowed, or twisted. You mentioned the relief is "OK", so if it was comfortable to play, and sounds OK plugged into an amp..it is, after all, an electric guitar, an Epiphone...has it's own "voice" and peculiarities and a real beautiful finish on that one . Also, if you lower the bass side of the bridge a bit more, the treble side might also lower, just a tiny amount more too, if there is "room" left to lower the bass side, and the strings don't get "neck slap/buzz" by doing so. Also, try graphtech saddles and nut...Just a thought. I'm sure others will have further comments too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbpark Posted January 14, 2015 Author Share Posted January 14, 2015 Is the guitar uncomfortable to play or does it just plain sound bad with the way the string heights are set right now ? I'd say, you got a pretty nice guitar there, even if the strings are a bit high off the neck on the treble side. I'm not sure what your concern is with the neck angle. I do not believe the angle is as acute on an Epiphone as it is on a Gibson 14 degrees/17 degrees. I wouldn't worry about the neck angle as that's the way the 2 company's make guitar necks, without string trees, like Fender guitars have. Unless you believe the neck is somehow twisted causing uneven string height on bass and treble sides of the neck. If you lower the bridge any further, more "fret slap" will be evident. I'd just leave it as is, unless you can see that the neck is slightly warped, bent, bowed, or twisted. You mentioned the relief is "OK", so if it was comfortable to play, and sounds OK plugged into an amp..it is, after all, an electric guitar, an Epiphone...has it's own "voice" and peculiarities and a real beautiful finish on that one . Also, if you lower the bass side of the bridge a bit more, the treble side might also lower, just a tiny amount more too, if there is "room" left to lower the bass side, and the strings don't get "neck slap/buzz" by doing so. Also, try graphtech saddles and nut...Just a thought. I'm sure others will have further comments too. I wasn't referring to the headstock angle (which you may have confused neck angle with since you mentioned string trees). I was concerned with the neck angle in regards to it's relation/result of having to lower the bridge as low as it is to get the action where it is. Hopefully this makes more sense! The guitar plays well now. Wouldn't want to action any lower on the low side since it will buzz more, and be heard when plugged in. Now it doesn't buzz when plugged in unless I'm really digging in. I tend to have a heavy hand at times, so I don't really go for super low action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPS1976 Posted January 14, 2015 Share Posted January 14, 2015 that's a tough call. I would want to be able to adjust lower than 4/64 if I needed to. you could risk it and sell it later but if I were you, I'd take it back and get another. they don't make them in the gold top any more but the other standard Casinos should sound the same since they have the same electronics and build. good luck! I dig that P-Bass too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbpark Posted January 14, 2015 Author Share Posted January 14, 2015 that's a tough call. I would want to be able to adjust lower than 4/64 if I needed to. you could risk it and sell it later but if I were you, I'd take it back and get another. they don't make them in the gold top any more but the other standard Casinos should sound the same since they have the same electronics and build. good luck! I dig that P-Bass too! The P-bass is a 1976. Gorgeous bass. That was a ridiculous craigslist score I paid $250 for a couple years ago! I just need to make sure it's not a set up issue on my end. I once tried setting up my SG Standard and screwed it all up and thought the same thing. Then had a guy set it up and the action is nice and low, and the bridge seems to be sitting right in the middle of it's adjustment range. For some reason I can dial in a Fender really well, but can't with a Gibson or Epiphone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharp Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 I have somewhat the same guitar, and I had to make a few adjustments to mine. The nut needed work, and then it played fine. I had to file the bass saddle to lower the intonation a tad. I filed the top edge of the bridge because it was too sharp for my hand. The guitar is in my rack at show time. I have 10's on it now, perhaps if you used light top/heavy bottom strings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPS1976 Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 The P-bass is a 1976. Gorgeous bass. That was a ridiculous craigslist score I paid $250 for a couple years ago! I just need to make sure it's not a set up issue on my end. I once tried setting up my SG Standard and screwed it all up and thought the same thing. Then had a guy set it up and the action is nice and low, and the bridge seems to be sitting right in the middle of it's adjustment range. For some reason I can dial in a Fender really well, but can't with a Gibson or Epiphone! that has to be the deal of the millennium!! looks brand new! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GDTRFB Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 The buzzing you hear may be caused by the wire in the bridge itself (and has nothing to do with bridge height). This is a very common issue with casinos. A very common upgrade is to get a new Gotoh wireless bridge from http://www.stewmac.com/ They are a direct drop in replacement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbpark Posted January 15, 2015 Author Share Posted January 15, 2015 The buzzing you hear may be caused by the wire in the bridge itself (and has nothing to do with bridge height). This is a very common issue with casinos. A very common upgrade is to get a new Gotoh wireless bridge from http://www.stewmac.com/ They are a direct drop in replacement. I mentioned I don't get any buzzing when played. Again, my issue is maxing out the bridge on the treble side, having it as low as it will go to get the action to where it's recommended by the manufacturer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GDTRFB Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 I mentioned I don't get any buzzing when played. Again, my issue is maxing out the bridge on the treble side, having it as low as it will go to get the action to where it's recommended by the manufacturer. I hear you. But on my casino the buzzing from the wire was noticeable when unplugged, but not when played through the amp, just as you mentioned. just giving you a heads up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbpark Posted January 15, 2015 Author Share Posted January 15, 2015 I hear you. But on my casino the buzzing from the wire was noticeable when unplugged, but not when played through the amp, just as you mentioned. just giving you a heads up. Thanks for the advice! So far the bridge is fine. No buzzing from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byrds1965 Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 I mentioned I don't get any buzzing when played. Again, my issue is maxing out the bridge on the treble side, having it as low as it will go to get the action to where it's recommended by the manufacturer. I have owned many Casinos and still own 2.........I have never seen the bridge able to be cranked to the bottom like this and the strings not touching the fret board. I would say the neck join to the body is wrong and return it. I thought the Gold Casino was a GC, MF, 123 only thing........might be why it ended up in your shop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbpark Posted January 15, 2015 Author Share Posted January 15, 2015 I have owned many Casinos and still own 2.........I have never seen the bridge able to be cranked to the bottom like this and the strings not touching the fret board. I would say the neck join to the body is wrong and return it. I thought the Gold Casino was a GC, MF, 123 only thing........might be why it ended up in your shop. It is a MF, GC thing. I bought it at one of those retailers, brand new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crust Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 so, the neck isn't parallel to the body/bridge, It's on "crooked"...interesting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbpark Posted January 15, 2015 Author Share Posted January 15, 2015 so, the neck isn't parallel to the body/bridge, It's on "crooked"...interesting... I don't think it's crooked, and not sure why you think that. Pretty much every Gibson/Epiphone or style of guitar that uses these types of bridges has the treble side lower. My '13 SG Standard does. Neck ain't crooked. Took it to a luthier today. He may a few quick adjustments with the relief (took out a little) and raised the treble side of the bridge a bit and still kept the action at Gibson spec. Now I still have the ability to adjust in either direction on the treble side, and can go lower if I want. He said the guitar was pretty much near being set up perfect, just needed a couple very minor tweaks and said the neck angle was just fine and there's nothing wrong with the guitar. Now all I need to do is play it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt4356 Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Surely there's an issue with the neck joint/angle? All of my epis and all of the ones I have seen have at least 8/9 mm of adjustment left even with low action. I would definitely want the option to lower it more, regardless of you being able to get gibson spec action, it is only their recommendation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parabar Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Took it to a luthier today. He may a few quick adjustments with the relief (took out a little) and raised the treble side of the bridge a bit and still kept the action at Gibson spec. Now I still have the ability to adjust in either direction on the treble side, and can go lower if I want. He said the guitar was pretty much near being set up perfect, just needed a couple very minor tweaks and said the neck angle was just fine and there's nothing wrong with the guitar. Now all I need to do is play it. Well done! Now play that beauty! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbpark Posted January 16, 2015 Author Share Posted January 16, 2015 Surely there's an issue with the neck joint/angle? All of my epis and all of the ones I have seen have at least 8/9 mm of adjustment left even with low action. I would definitely want the option to lower it more, regardless of you being able to get gibson spec action, it is only their recommendation. While I definitely see your point of view and agree with you on most of it, I am leaning toward keeping the guitar. I looked about 4-5 other Casinos in the last week, all being current production Casinos and one was a 2011 Lennon version (FWIW, the Lennon version was decent, but had a few fit and finish flaws including a spot where someone at the factory got crazy with the sander and apparently burned through to the binding underneath on the upper cutaway, and horrible, rough f-holes). All of them seemed to vary with bridge height and what not. The reason I am probably going to keep this one is: 1.) it's very playable and feels great now that the kinks have been worked out, and... 2.) the pickup height seems spot on to where I want it for the bridge pickup. Since you can't lower the dog ear P90's, and raising them requires a shim, etc. I'm considering myself fortunate to have the action where I want it AND not have to mess with pickup heights. If one of those was not where I wanted it and was unable to adjust it easily, I'd definitely be sending the guitar back for sure. Now there's a little bit of adjustment left on the treble side to go lower with the action, but nowhere near 8-9mm; only maybe 3mm on the treble side, and 6mm left on the bass side. Sure it would be great to have the bridge a little higher since a higher bridge usually results in a fuller sound, more sustain, etc., but it's an electric guitar, and I'm not going for crazy, sweet, pristine cleans with this guitar. This is going through a slightly overdriven amp (BMRI LTD, AC15 or a '72 Princeton Reverb and a Silverface Champ). I still have a couple weeks to make my final decision, but still think she's a keeper! With how I play and how I can be heavy-handed at times, it just seems that they factory spec for action suits my playing. I am in no way saying that it has to be within spec for everyone, and I usually use factory specs as a good starting point, and then tweak to my personal taste, but found that feel, my style of playing combined with string buzz means that this is where it seems best for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt4356 Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 I can see why you would rather keep it, it's beautiful and if they don't make them anymore it could be hard to find another. If your happy with it then seriously that's all that matters, it's easy for me to give opinions from pictures but if It was my guitar and I liked the way it played that opinion would probably change! I need to get a casino this year I think! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.