Asian Epis

[jmendoza]

MIK Epiphones made prior to Y2K

 

Much disscussion over these Korean made Epis here on the forum, but no real " meat and potato" details, just subjective opinions. I would like to offer some more meaningful comments about them, from a luthier and player viewpoint, that addreess the actual physical differences between the early MIK and later post Y2K MIKs, and MIC (Chinese) versions.

 

On the bound fingerboards, you will notice some of the pre Y2K models have the classic Gibson style nibs on the fret ends, which is more labor intensive to produce, but gives a much smoother feel to the leck, especially when playing fast chord changes. Newer Epis lack this feature ( so do Gibsons, see below) and basically have the feel of an unbound fingerboard. The problem with the newer non-nibbeed frets is that when the fingerboard and neck dry out and shrink with age, the sharp fret ends protrude and can actually cut your fingers and palm, so they then will need to be filed flush, dressed and polished by a good luthier. You may have seen an older flamenco/ spanish style guitar with this problem, it's not uncommon. On the plus side, for the same neck width, you have slightly wider string spacing due to the frets extending over the necks edge binding, making chords easier to play for people with larger hands. So, the binding on newer non-nibbed bound fingerboards serves no other purpose than a purely cosmetic one, as it no longer caps the fret ends.

 

Onto the fingerboards and inlays: The pre Y2K NIK Epis have real abalone and pearl inlays, and the quality of the rosewood and ebony is generally better than post Y2K models. At some point, the "Tree of Life" inlay on the peghead ceased to be abalone, so pearl was substituted, then later, peraloid replaced the real pearl, and finally the peghead inlays were changed to a non iridescent white plastic which looks very cheap. There is no doubt whatsoever that the older versions with real abalone and pearl are much nicer looking, and have superior tone woods used for the fingerboard and neck.

 

The hardware, well it goes almost without saying that the gold plating was very thin and wears away quickly, and will not withstand even the gentlest metal polish. The tuners currently being used are much better as are the stop tail piece and TOM bridge, which now are upgraded to be identical to the ones used on Gibsons. I do not know if the newer MIC models have better gold plating.

 

Overall finish and build quality is very good on most MIK models, but like any manufacturer, each guitar will have slight differences. On the sunburst models, I have seen some irregular blobs resulting from the spray gun "spitting", and the finishes tend to be fairly heavy, but this has always been the case with imports and it does help them withstand humidity changes much better at the cost of damping the overall tone a bit. Some of pre Y2K NIK models have nitrocellulose finish, while the later MIK and Chinese versions are polyurethane. The blonde models have much nicer wood than the burst or solid color models. In general, as more and more of these asian musical instrument factories started mass producing guitars, the better grade woods became scarcer, so the older the guitar, the better the wood tends to be. Prior to Y2K, you could sometimes find a standard model Epi with really nicely figured wood, but today, it is only found on the special and more expensive models. Here again, this is a case where older can be better. Be advised that Chinese maple, and Amigre/Beechwood, can be highly figured but it is not of the same tone quality as european or americam maple. Beechwood is often used as an inexpensive substitute for maple, and most people cannot tell the difference.

 

Of course, as guitars age, the wood and finish dries out and becomes more resonant. Early Asian Epis had a nitro-cellulose finish, which hardens with age, it takes about 10-20 years, depending on the instrument. Later polyurethane finishes will probably not reach a degree of hardness within the owners lifetime to be of significance in contributing to the tone, or better put: they aint gonna get better in your lifetime! Guitars made with aliphatic resin adhesive (read that to be Tite-bond carpenters wood glue, made by Franklin) are not as resonant due to the flexible nature of this glue. The older import Epis were initially made with tradional hide glue, which is not only re-workable, but more resonant as it is harder. So this means the guitars made with hide glue and lacquer finishes have more potential for tone developement as they age, while the later "plastic coated" versions will remain choked down tone wise for the foreseeable future, and not improve much if at all tone wise.

 

Then there is the electronics, and I think everyone will agree that the Korean pickups, switches and pots are not nearly the quality of their Gibson counterparts. Virtually any Asian Epiphone will always benefit from being retrofitted with PAFs, or real P-90s, or a Benedetto S6, it's all about the money. Here is one case where the later post Y2K Epis are an improvement.

 

There are more little things, but this covers the majority of the really significant issues that affect playability, tone, and longevity. In summary, over the years, the Epis slowly evolved and were changed to keep the costs down by eliminating certain features and processes, the use of less expensive finishes and adhesives, plastic instead of bone nuts and saddles, and lower grade woods and inlay materials. One area of significant improvement has been the electronics but people still regularly retro fit them with Gibson USA pickups. The quality of the bridges, tuners and hardware has also improved over the years.

So, without a doubt, the earlier Epis will contimue to go up in value, albeit slowly, they are appreciating. There is limited amount of them, as they are no longer being made, and with the newer ones lacking the workmanship and tradional material features of the earlier versions, it makes them more desirable. This is also true of pre 2005 Gibsons for the same reasons. FYI, they too lack fret nibs, hide glue, and nitrocellulose lacquer, and some even have synthetic fingerboards instead of ebony.

 

I just found out that the Peerless factory in Korea, used to put out 30,000 guitars a month, but then they scaled way back to only 2000/ month to shift the main focus from quantity to quality. My Epiphone Emperor Regent NA was nade there in 2005 and it's imaculate, but moreover, it has great tone and action, so much so that my 1989 Gibson ES 175 is going back into storage for the foreseeable future. I recently put PAFs into my 1989 Samik made Sheraton II, and now like it better than my Gibson ES 335, which will be relegated to the closet as well.

 

One can see there is a very good value in these Epiphones as an affordable alternative to top line Gibsons which have become cost prohibitive for the average Joe to consider as a daily plucker. As the price of Gibsons go up, it also increases the value of the lower cost alternates as well. All guitars have seen a steady appreciation over the last 25 years, even Kays and Harmonies have more than doubled in price.

[Jeffery Smith]

When I got back into reading about guitars and playing guitars about 12 years ago, Ibanez had come out with some budget-minded guitars made in China. They looked much better in the guitar magazines, but were less impressive in workmanship close up. One description of this new era of imported guitars was that of being complete submerged in clear finish. In corners, urethane seemed to be pooled.

 

There are many fans of the new Chinese epiphones, but I'm really not in a hurry to buy any more of them. I do have my MIC Riviera. I like it. But I'm really more impressed with my Japanese and Korean Epiphones.

[kidblast]

they have come a long way from where they were 20 years go, that's for sure.

 

I have a few archtops that I've picked up in the last 4 years or so.

 

one is a broadway, (see avatar) the friends I have who play are very impressed. It's excellent in every way.. given the gibson counter part waltzes at around $10,000, for me, certainly by no means a jazz guy, but wanting a "jazz box",, this was one of the only reasonable solutions.

[iankinzel]

My first Epiphone was a 2005 black Les Paul Standard made in the Dae Won factory in China. I adored that guitar at the time, but the guitars Epiphone's making now quite frankly put that '05 to shame. It's crazy how much the quality has improved in the last ten years - the necks, the finish, the pickups, the electronics, everything really. My '05 felt like a compromise, but my current Epis (a 2010 Wilshire and a 2012 Crestwood) sound and play like much more serious guitars. I used to own a Gibson SG but sold it because I simply wasn't using it thanks to my Epiphones.

 

As for the older MIK models, it's been my experience that you don't really know what you're getting. Gibson wasn't as serious about the lower- to mid-level market at the time (especially since Gibson's own prices for Gibson USA models weren't quite so exorbitant just yet), and specs varied quite widely. Whereas nowadays you're likely to get a cheaper member of the mahogany family, in the '90s the Korean Epis were often straight-up made from alder (even the LP and SG models!), and the pickups and electronics were generally a complete joke. BTW, none of this paragraph applies to the hollow and semi hollow models (eg Sheraton, Casino etc).

[merciful-evans]

Epis & Gibsons I have tried out in shops this year (so far):

 

Gibson ES-390 Gloss 2014

Gibson ES-339 Studio 2015

2 x Gibson ES-339 Satin 2014

3 x Gibson ES-339 Gloss 2014

2 s Gibson Les Paul Special DC P90 2015

Gibson Les Paul DC Goldtop P90 (2014?)

Gibson Les Paul Less Plus 2015

 

Epiphone Broadway (2013?)

4 x Epiphone ES-339 (201?)

2 x Epiphone ES-339 P90 Pro (201?)

2 x Epiphone Casino Coupe (2015)

Epiphone Ltd Edition Dot (201?)

Epiphone Casino Goldtop (201?)

Epiphone Les Paul Florentine (2015)

 

All the Epis were fairly recent and made in Qingdao China. The one I bought certainly was. Of the above 12 Epis, only the Broadway was a disappointment. Its build & finish was good, but the handling and sound were mediocre. All the remaining models were very good, with consistent quality. The Florentine was excellent.

 

The 11 Gibsons were far less consistent quality wise. The Less Plus and the ES-339 Studio were excellent (both 2015 models). The ES-390 should have never passed Gibson QC. The remainder were good, but none were outstanding. Significantly, all the Gibsons varied in build quality (exhibiting assembly variation), especially among the 2014 models.

 

Epiphone are forever damned to be Gibson’s bargain bucket, but like an eager younger brother, they seem to be trying harder to measure up & close the gap.

The Japanese Korean & Indonesian plants all struggled with the same quality issues during their first years of production. China were no different. Guitar buyers still clamour to buy Korean models years after they ceased production, being slow to recognise the quality of the instruments

 

Well, Epiphone Qingdao are impressive right now. Long may they continue.

[charlie brown]

Korean/Samick "generic" Thin line body shape:

 

 

More current "Gibson" body shape, on Sheraton and Dot, 335 "Pro" etc.

 

 

 

I'm sure there are other subtle differences, on other models, depending on which "Asian" country their made.

But, the Semi-hollow body models seem to show the most striking differences.

 

 

"I" tend to prefer the "Gibson" style. Which do YOU prefer?!

 

CB

[jazzalta]

I'm glad I'm no longer held hostage to guitar brand snobbery. I am 61 and retired from playing in public. I have a Fender Squier Affinity and a 2010 Epiphone Les Paul Special pearl edition. I have played and owned many Gibson Les Pauls in my time but found them not adequate for my jazz tones. My Epi delivers my sound in spades...and I'm loving it. I have no desire to own anything else at this point. China has come a long way in their guitar manufacturing. Let's rock on and not dis each other's choices in instruments.

[RobinTheHood]

I'm glad I'm no longer held hostage to guitar brand snobbery. I am 61 and retired from playing in public. I have a Fender Squier Affinity and a 2011 Epiphone Les Paul Special pearl edition. I have played and owned many Gibson Les Pauls in my time but found them not adequate for my jazz tones. My Epi delivers my sound in spades...and I'm loving it. I have no desire to own anything else at this point. China has come a long way in their guitar manufacturing. Let's rock on and not dis each other's choices in instruments.

 

We all know by now that China can make a good instrument. Its always prudent to keep in mind that the Chinese will only build to the quality level that they are allowed to. Though, many of the smaller OEM factories seem to have quality and consistency issues. This is typical. And really, the bulk of Korean Epiphones was average at best. Samick and Unsung were hit and miss and had severe consistency issues throughout the entire time they were contracted to build Epiphones. They are the major reasons for Epiphione building dedicated plants in China. Peerless was the best of the Korean manufacturers and is why they were contracted to build the higher end stuff. Unsung still handles some Epiphone stuff, probably overflow I'm guessing. Anyway, judge the guitar, not the country of origin or the year it was made.

 

 

And to the OP, not to be rude and with all due respect, but you need to research you Epiphones a little better. Hide glue and nitro on Korean Epis? Not likely, as well as many other things you mentioned. I think you are confusing pre-1970 USA, post 1970 Japanese and post 1984 Korean Epiphones across the board. I realize that you may have had your hands of many Epiphones over the years, but I also know that with many of them it is hard to distinguish origin without indepth and detailed knowledge of the differences and subtleties between some of these guitars. I run across this all of the time and it is an easy thing to do as Epiphones history and manufacturing can be a little blurry.

[LPS1976]

Anyway, judge the guitar, not the country of origin or the year it was made.

 

 

 

 

 

truer words have never been spoken

[Jeffery Smith]

Korean/Samick "generic" Thin line body shape:

 

 

More current "Gibson" body shape, on Sheraton and Dot, 335 "Pro" etc.

 

 

 

I'm sure there are other subtle differences, on other models, depending on which "Asian" country their made.

But, the Semi-hollow body models seem to show the most striking differences.

 

 

"I" tend to prefer the "Gibson" style. Which do YOU prefer?!

 

CB

Okay Charlie, is the sunburst model said to have the Mickey Mouse ears?

[6string]

"I" tend to prefer the "Gibson" style. Which do YOU prefer?!

 

CB

 

I prefer the Gibson style as well.

[charlie brown]

Okay Charlie, is the sunburst model said to have the Mickey Mouse ears?

 

 

Yes, essentially. The horns have had slightly different shapes,over the

years, some have been more "pointed" (mid '60's), but the original '50's

models had what's often called "Mickey Mouse" ear type horns.

 

For me, it's not so much the shape of the horns, as it is the waist, horns,

and lower bout positions/proportions. The "Gibson" version, has always had

a nicer look, TO ME! Other's may have differing opinions, on that! It's all

good!

 

My AIUSA Sheraton (below), has the smaller, less "round" version horns, but same

basic body proportions, to the "Gibson" spec's.

 

 

Cheers,

CB

[Jeffery Smith]

Yes, essentially. The horns have had slightly different shapes,over the

years, some have been more "pointed" (mid '60's), but the original '50's

models had what's often called "Mickey Mouse" ear type horns.

 

For me, it's not so much the shape of the horns, as it is the waist, horns,

and lower bout positions/proportions. The "Gibson" version, has always had

a nicer look, TO ME! Other's may have differing opinions, on that! It's all

good!

 

My AIUSA Sheraton (below), has the smaller, less "round" version horns, but same

basic body proportions, to the "Gibson" spec's.

 

 

Cheers,

CB

 

I really don't notice it unless both are shown together.