J35 (and other acoustics) - is there a reason the action is so high?

[hessodreamy]

I recently got a Gibson J35 and noticed that the action is (what I deem) crazily high. It's ok on the high E but gets higher as you go down until the low E is about 6mm off the 12th fret - far from the 3mm Gibson seem to recommend. Funnily enough, my Taylor acoustic is set up in much the same way.

 

I know it's easy enough to have the saddle shaved but, in light of how I've seem a couple of higher-end makers have such high action, I was wondering if there's a reason for it? Apart from the fact that it's easier to lower it than to raise it, is there some aspect of these guitars that means it's a good idea to have high action?

[EuroAussie]

Yeah, that is crazy high. Just had a look on my AJ and HB TV and they are both exactly 3mm from the fret on the 12th to bottom of the string, low E.

 

Does it need a combination of saddle trim and trust rod tweak, how is the relief ?

 

Would take it for a pro set up, but whatever you do you need to get that down from 6mm, thats not right at all.

[kidblast]

my J200 needed a few tweaks to get the action right. The saddle needed a bit of material taken off, but the luthier I take my guitars to said the nut was most of the problem. in my case the neck relief was fine btw.

 

my action is now at 5/64s (low E) ~ 4/64s (high E) it was about 2/64s higher on both measurements before I took it in.

[58 Relic]

After a year from new nearly to the day my J45 has kept the action from the factory as 7-64" 5-64" at the twelfth fret , this was listed on the quality tick list in the case from new . I believe that this is the Gibson factory specs found on the Gibson website ? .However I do find that this action will change due to string makers tensions and the weather as I use the capo on and above the sixth fret sometimes this works for me . What does your factory check list say ? If it was set correctly at the factory I doubt if it's the saddle ( providing it's in the saddle slot fully ) then it could need a truss rod adjustment due to weather etc . Good luck

[kidblast]

I think factory is 6/64 B 5/64 T

[58 Relic]

Gibson acoustic specifications are:

 

• 1st fret- treble side- 1/64"
• 1st fret- bass side- 2/64"
• 12th fret - treble side- 5/64"
• 12th fret- bass side- 7/64"

This was taken from the Gibson .com /tech tips / guitar set up page having said that my action differs by 1-64" sometimes due to the weather . Cheers

[BigKahune]

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^ http://www.gibson.com/Support/Tech-Tips/Basic-Guitar-Setup.aspx

 

What's the environment like by you? By me it's the humid time of year - belly rise.

 

 

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[Buc McMaster]

6mm?! That's over 1/4".........nearly unplayable. While nut and saddle corrections can be made, if the instrument suffers from a bad neck set such adjustments will be minimally effective. As recommended, you should take it to a skilled luthier for a professional evaluation of the guitar. Shouldn't have to suffer just to play guitar!

[jvi]

my 2 cents worth is that the modern j 45 and others just sound better with high action, these are BIG guitars with BIG necks, and bloom with higher strings, older gibsons seem to take lower strings better IN MY OPINION but many modern gibsons suffer tonal lose when lowered ,again my opinion cheers J

[Hogeye]

Look kids there are some very basic reasons for the action to change. It's not the saddle or the truss rod or the fret nut. It's the humidification of the top. if your so called expert says the nut is cut wrong then he has no clue as to what he's doing.

 

If the top gets too much humidity it will raise. That will take the bridge and saddle up with it as well as the strings and you will get high action. Adjusting the truss rod or re-slotting the fret nut will not fix the problem. You need to get the top back down and that means adjusting the humidity your guitar lives in. If you change the factory setting then you will have problems when the season changes and the top dries out and comes back down.

 

Gibson uses a Plek machine to slot the fret nut and adjust the truss rod as well as set the saddle height and level the frets. The machine is very precise and if you start fooling around with the truss rod and the fret nut you will risk putting the guitar all out of spec.

 

People are way to quick to start fooling around with the truss rod and that's not a wise thing to do. Anyone that tells you to adjust the truss rod to fix a action problem has no idea what he is talking about.

 

Just so you all know... The Plek system is a computer controlled system designed to set up your guitar to exact precise measurements. The Pleck system is the most exacting system used to date.

 

So---As usual. Big Kahuna is correct.

[Buc McMaster]

With all due respect, Hogeye, "all out of spec" is exactly where I want my instrument because factory spec is not good enough. Computers may be fine for putting a man on the moon but the computer hasn't been built that can make a guitar feel right in my hands. Never have I bought a new guitar by any maker that was set up to my liking, and that's been a helluva lot of guitars. A guitar is an individual as is each buyer and no computer controlled setup is going to be right for everyone. I think the Plek machine is as much a marketing ploy as it is insurance of consistent factory spec setups. Give me a skilled luthier that can understand what a player wants.

 

And I'm not a kid.

[OldCowboy]

Humidity changes affect my guitars - most of which are vintage Gibsons - to the point where I need to pay relatively continual attention to what's happening with each of them in order to make sure none of them gets out of control. It doesn't take a budding case of OCD, but rather just reasonable awareness and precaution. That said, my experience with long-term ownership of newer Gibsons is very limited and, hence, I try to stay clear of discussions that seem limited to the quirks of later production models. The reason I'm responding here is because there's a very simple thing that works well for me and mine and helps avoid overmuch seasonal tweaking or too many runs to my luthier. In the humid months (top comes up) the strings go lighter/in the dry months (top comes down) they get heavier. Lights in winter/custom lights in summer. This assumes a proper set-up in the beginning, but as long as I'm making the effort to maintain some degree of indoor humidity control it works quite well. Take it for whatever it's worth, and I hope it helps.

[jdd707]

rule of thumb for me ..... EVERY guitar, new or used, I play for a month or two and then I take it to my guy (top notch luthier) and have it set up. Good rule and never been disappointed ..... every time I say "best $75 bucks I've spent this week". Trick is finding the right guy ... or gal.

[Hogeye]

With all due respect, Hogeye, "all out of spec" is exactly where I want my instrument because factory spec is not good enough. Computers may be fine for putting a man on the moon but the computer hasn't been built that can make a guitar feel right in my hands. Never have I bought a new guitar by any maker that was set up to my liking, and that's been a helluva lot of guitars. A guitar is an individual as is each buyer and no computer controlled setup is going to be right for everyone. I think the Plek machine is as much a marketing ploy as it is insurance of consistent factory spec setups. Give me a skilled luthier that can understand what a player wants.

 

And I'm not a kid.

 

You folks just don't remember. When they first started using the Plek I wrote that the thing was fine for electrics but not for acoustics. This very discussion proves the point. If you look at the new Gibson guitars you will see that half the frets are ground off and their useful life is destroyed in the process of the machine getting everything level. That and most of the time they don't re-crown the frets. Flat frets can and do play out of tune and they can cause premature string breakage.

 

If the top does rise or fall and you need to make an adjustment then you will probably end up re-dressing the frets again and you may end up with some very low frets. Hmmm...

 

Good thread and I would like to see some more folks weigh in on the usefulness of the Plek system on acoustics.

 

I have a 1943 Gibson J-45. It's my birth year.

 

Compared to me you are all kids...It's a compliment

[Hogeye]

Humidity changes affect my guitars - most of which are vintage Gibsons - to the point where I need to pay relatively continual attention to what's happening with each of them in order to make sure none of them gets out of control. It doesn't take a budding case of OCD, but rather just reasonable awareness and precaution. That said, my experience with long-term ownership of newer Gibsons is very limited and, hence, I try to stay clear of discussions that seem limited to the quirks of later production models. The reason I'm responding here is because there's a very simple thing that works well for me and mine and helps avoid overmuch seasonal tweaking or too many runs to my luthier. In the humid months (top comes up) the strings go lighter/in the dry months (top comes down) they get heavier. Lights in winter/custom lights in summer. This assumes a proper set-up in the beginning, but as long as I'm making the effort to maintain some degree of indoor humidity control it works quite well. Take it for whatever it's worth, and I hope it helps.

 

 

Finally.... Someone who knows how to take care of a guitar. Thanks for the advice it's spot on....

[Buc McMaster]

Compared to me you are all kids...It's a compliment

 

Okay, if we're strictly speaking of years in the saddle, you may or may not be right on that point. It just comes across as condescending though when you say it like that.

[hessodreamy]

I like this forum. It's nearly as rowdy as the telecaster forum

[kidblast]

Compared to me you are all kids...It's a compliment

 

59 and holdin Hogeye...

[kidblast]

I like this forum. It's nearly as rowdy as the telecaster forum

 

 

just dont say the "T" (taylor) word around here,, That will get ya in all kinds of doo-doo

 

[BigKahune]

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No Plek on my acoustics, thank goodness.

 

Back to humidity - there are plenty of players around here (Midwest - dry winter, humid summer) with two saddles - summer saddle, winter saddle - to accommodate the rise and fall of the belly. I got a coupla guitars that need that swap, and some don't.

 

 

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[Hogeye]

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No Plek on my acoustics, thank goodness.

 

Back to humidity - there are plenty of players around here (Midwest - dry winter, humid summer) with two saddles - summer saddle, winter saddle - to accommodate the rise and fall of the belly. I got a coupla guitars that need that swap, and some don't.

 

 

.

 

We are all in different places. Two days ago it was 96 degrees and the humidity was 7%. Today it was only 90 and it was downright tropical with 19% humidity That's pretty dry even for here. Multiple saddles and a gallon of water to charge the humidifiers is the rule out here in our neck of the woods.

 

Must be hot as hell where Buc lives. Seems to make him crabby. Durn kids.

[Buc McMaster]

Must be hot as hell where Buc lives. Seems to make him crabby. Durn kids.

 

Waaaaa!! [lol] Now that's funny! Indeed it is hot here on the gulf coast......and big time humid most of the time.

 

(And for the record, I'm always crabby.......and I'm still not a kid!)

[58 Relic]

1470425493[/url]' post='1789149']

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No Plek on my acoustics, thank goodness.

 

Back to humidity - there are plenty of players around here (Midwest - dry winter, humid summer) with two saddles - summer saddle, winter saddle - to accommodate the rise and fall of the belly. I got a coupla guitars that need that swap, and some don't.

 

 

.

 

Now that's a good . taking this further how about when selling a new guitar the guitar is supplied with two additional saddles with differing action heights to take into account individual playing styles and weather etc this would save s lot of problems .Didn't Ovation do a similar thing with shims ?

 

[Josee]

I've received my new J-15 earlier this week, and I, too, have the same string height on the 12th fret, while capo'd on the 1st Fret: 6mm (E-bass) and 5mm (e-treble). I've penciled a line around the saddle to keep a reference for when I'll be sanding down the saddle later on. From that, I will start to shave off 1mm, then go from there and reinstall the saddle, tuning the strings back to pitch and check the action of the upper register. Then, will pencil it again if more sanding is needed; rinse and repeat if necessary. I won't shave 3mm from the get go, as I have learned from my mistake once. ;)

 

The neck relief, measured with a notched edge and feeler gauge blade at the 6th fret (where the relief is the most obvious) has a space of 0.012in or 0.30mm. So, no need to adjust the truss rod. Furthermore, I've used my homemade fret rocker and none were "rocking", and they are top notch considering the neck is under tension with strings.

 

Checking the nut action is quite easy... Playing open chords is a good indicator, but in doubt, try the following: Press the low-E string down between the second and third frets, you should see a very tiny space between the string and the first fret - I can slide a 0.003in or 0.08mm feeler gauge blade between them. If you do not have a feeler gauge, try the corner of a piece of paper (borrow a sheet from your printer drawer...). Repeat the same for each string. I got the same measurement for all 6 strings. The action is perfect for me, although the luthier I saw 2 days ago begged to differ, as he wanted to "re-cut" into the nut slots...among making other changes that I consider unnecessary considering that it's a brand new guitar. So, I didn't confront him and politely said that I'd rather play the guitar as is for another week before considering any changes. I was already doing my own tune-ups on all my guitars (including leveling the frets with a sanding beam), so I won't pay the luthier another visit.

 

I keep all of my acoustic (non-Gibson) guitars in their respective cases equipped with humidipacks and digital hygrometers in which the humidity is maintained to a steady 50% to 52%, and are monitored on a weekly basis during summer (humid conditions), but monitored daily during winter (dry because of electric heating). I've never noticed if the top of my guitars were going up or down in winter or summer months; but one thing for sure, there's always a random day during fall and spring that the guitars become suddenly "unplayable", even my Gibson SGJ. Usually I adjust the truss rod with 1/8th of a turn (tightening in summer, loosening in winter). I've never thought of keeping two sets of saddles, but I will consider that solution for my new J-15. :)