Speaking of reasons why Gibson’s sales are down

[merciful-evans]

Even Fender are doing it. I saw a Tele yesterday for £6k. How can a block of wood with a bolt on neck be £6k? I don't care what you do to it.

 

Its a bandwagon.

Its about covering all the bases. After the made in America models, come the 'affordable' models from Asia.

 

But what about the rich? Why cant they have a guitar that suits their pocket? Well, they can of course.

 

I watched a documentary on Concorde recently. The plane was losing money. When BA asked Concorde passengers how much their tickets cost, most didnt know and guessed it was 'higher'. So BA started charging them what the rich THOUGHT it cost, moving flights into profit for the first time. It immediately made me think of PRS Private Stock.

[JayinLA]

My son wanted to pay $150 bucks for some jeans that were all torn up from the factory. I did not allow it. Then he starts in about relic'd guitars. I was proud of him. Good argument. I don't own any 'relic'd' guitars. (At least all my relic'd guitars are actually 'road worn').

 

I think Gibson has reached critical mass with the relic'd guitar deal. The baby boomers who could afford a Duane Allman clone guitar for $15,000 already have one. The rest of us, who actually play their instruments are the ones left holding the bag. Our segment of Gibson's customers, and understandingly so, have been playing 2nd fiddle to these collectors with blank check books.

 

It's been the knock on Gibson for as long as I can remember that they don't make instruments for the 'working man'. I think all this relic'd business was a way for Gibson to say.."Hey, we can make even more expensive guitars...we don't have to bow to anyone." Well that pigtrough is empty. Sorry Murphey.

 

Now Gibson, if you're listening. I don't want an Epiphone. I would like the choice to pay less than $3500 and get a nice 335 and I know there are thousands of players just like me. If you can't build me a true Gibson 338 for $1200-1500, I will continue to buy ESP's, Schecter's, and Washburns. Not that I want to, I don't have a choice. These are all American guitars.

[Guest Farnsbarns]

It's interesting to note that there is always a stated assumption that if someone can afford a $15k guitar, that they don't/can't actually play it. Sour grapes?

[JayinLA]

It's interesting to note that there is always a stated assumption that if someone can afford a $15k guitar, that they don't/can't actually play it. Sour grapes?

 

 

It's not an assumption, it's fact. The vast majority of the custom-relic guitar market are not players. Dan Murphey agrees. If all you get with Gibson's failing business model is...$15k/sour grapes...then man. You are the guy that is the definition of target market.

[rct]

...If you can't build me a true Gibson 338 for $1200-1500, I will continue to buy ESP's, Schecter's, and Washburns. Not that I want to, I don't have a choice. These are all American guitars.

 

If you are paying US made money to those three companies you are paying Gibson prices. They haven't non "custom shop" American guitars for a very long time. I had two American Washburns in the mid 80's that were meh, one Shecter PT which was a Tele-alike, but never an ESP.

 

rct

[Allenjason95]

My son wanted to pay $150 bucks for some jeans that were all torn up from the factory. I did not allow it. Then he starts in about relic'd guitars. I was proud of him. Good argument. I don't own any 'relic'd' guitars. (At least all my relic'd guitars are actually 'road worn').

 

I think Gibson has reached critical mass with the relic'd guitar deal. The baby boomers who could afford a Duane Allman clone guitar for $15,000 already have one. The rest of us, who actually play their instruments are the ones left holding the bag. Our segment of Gibson's customers, and understandingly so, have been playing 2nd fiddle to these collectors with blank check books.

 

It's been the knock on Gibson for as long as I can remember that they don't make instruments for the 'working man'. I think all this relic'd business was a way for Gibson to say.."Hey, we can make even more expensive guitars...we don't have to bow to anyone." Well that pigtrough is empty. Sorry Murphey.

 

Now Gibson, if you're listening. I don't want an Epiphone. I would like the choice to pay less than $3500 and get a nice 335 and I know there are thousands of players just like me. If you can't build me a true Gibson 338 for $1200-1500, I will continue to buy ESP's, Schecter's, and Washburns. Not that I want to, I don't have a choice. These are all American guitars.

 

You can get a 335 for less than $3500, buy used.

[Riffster]

Gibson financials here.

 

Not sure 2017 is in the books though, so data may be incomplete.

 

 

Looks like 3rd quarter 2017 data to me.

 

Also, if Gibson sales are down, I have not seen it anywhere, sure the industry is down but how much by major brand?

[Allenjason95]

On the side note, forgive me because I don't know jack about ESP, but I thought if you wanted an ESP custom, it was a Japanese made guitar you actually wanted to get their "best/premiere"?

 

I have heard a lot of good about ESP custom guitars... Don't know about their LTD brand so much and only tried one at a local shop - one that takes care of their guitars like sh.... - and one of the tone knobs was broken off (tone pot shaft snapped off!)... I will attribute this to the shop as they have a ton of guitars on the wall, and a lot of them are treated like poo and priced way higher than what even GC/SW/MF/etc. would sell you these for. I would imagine LTD guitars are pretty nice. But I digress. I still don't understand how I bought a brand new Jackson Dinky (still have it) and it was set up way better than any Gibson I have ever seen brand new. Mind you, this Jackson cost only ~$200 from GC (my friend worked there back then and gave me the employee discount). I don't buy guitars because they are made in US or anywhere in particular - like some nationalistic support. I buy a guitar that is made right, plays right, period. Just noted how well that Jackson was made and setup out the box. Just a plain 'ol Dinky... Came with some Awesome Seymour Duncans too that were just awesome for metal. This guitar is a metal machine as I like to say. F'n brutal! My son took his 6 month pictures with it at a photo studio - had to take pics there for the wife, but I wasn't let down That's my boy right there! Just saying, because Jackson/Charvel guitars are vastly underrated IMHO. Mine has a noticeably flatter neck radius than a Gibson and MUCH more flat than a Fender Stratocaster or Telecaster. I guess it allows player to race on the fretboard with blistering lead scale runs and arpeggio sweeps. Must admit, it helps!

 

Jackson and Charvel usually look goofy because they go after the metal market.

 

You and I both bought a Gibson Les Paul Custom because it’s a Gibson. I could have bought a bunch of Epiphone LP Customs for what I paid for my Gibson, but I wanted the real USA made deal.

 

Buying guitars is an emotional thing and aesthetics are incredibly important too. I couldn’t play an Epiphone LP because I think the headstock is fugly. I just would never own one, except maybe the early ones that still had a Gibson style headstockif it was given to me. I think a Gibson LP is the coolest looking guitar ever made. Period. They sound great too and are rock machines. For me it doesn’t get any cooler than a beat up well loved and played Gibson LP.

 

I’m not a guitar snob, I own 3 made in Indonesia guitars and they are really good guitars. I own an early 80s Japanese Squier bullet that’s a really good guitar too. But when I play them I’ve never had anybody really compliment them or ask about them. If I play one of my Gibsons people always compliment the guitar, ask about and say they want one or talk about theirs. It’s almost like being in a club and Gibsons are absolutely status symbols.

 

It’s like the difference between driving a Ford Focus and a Corvette. They’re both good cars but nobody is going to care if you have a Focus.

 

But I’m not into “Custom shop” Gibsons. Regular Gibsons are already expensive as hell and nobody I’ve ever met cared about “Custom shop”stuff. I assume dentists and lawyers buy that stuff. You’d have to be a dummy or stinking rich to pay $4,000 for a Special IMO. It’s just a plank of wood with pickups in it.

[Riffster]

My son wanted to pay $150 bucks for some jeans that were all torn up from the factory. I did not allow it. Then he starts in about relic'd guitars. I was proud of him. Good argument. I don't own any 'relic'd' guitars. (At least all my relic'd guitars are actually 'road worn').

 

I think Gibson has reached critical mass with the relic'd guitar deal. The baby boomers who could afford a Duane Allman clone guitar for $15,000 already have one. The rest of us, who actually play their instruments are the ones left holding the bag. Our segment of Gibson's customers, and understandingly so, have been playing 2nd fiddle to these collectors with blank check books.

 

It's been the knock on Gibson for as long as I can remember that they don't make instruments for the 'working man'. I think all this relic'd business was a way for Gibson to say.."Hey, we can make even more expensive guitars...we don't have to bow to anyone." Well that pigtrough is empty. Sorry Murphey.

 

Now Gibson, if you're listening. I don't want an Epiphone. I would like the choice to pay less than $3500 and get a nice 335 and I know there are thousands of players just like me. If you can't build me a true Gibson 338 for $1200-1500, I will continue to buy ESP's, Schecter's, and Washburns. Not that I want to, I don't have a choice. These are all American guitars.

 

 

Fender started the relic at the request of Keith Richards if I remember correctly and they have tons of custom shop offerings priced at thousands.

 

To me Gibson has a decent selection of prices, the 2017 Les Paul Classic was going for $1,800, that's a full featured guitar, full gloss, traditional appointments, etc. Sure there are some stupidly priced models but a lot of brands have that range of options.

 

An ES335 for $1,200 - $1,500? probably they could try and build it for that but that's not the sale price.

['Scales]

Fender started the relic at the request of Keith Richards if I remember correctly and they have tons of custom shop offerings priced at thousands.

 

To me Gibson has a decent selection of prices, the 2017 Les Paul Classic was going for $1,800, that's a full featured guitar, full gloss, traditional appointments, etc. Sure there are some stupidly priced models but a lot of brands have that range of options.

 

An ES335 for $1,200 - $1,500? probably they could try and build it for that but that's not the sale price.

Yeah, there's a price point for everyone and that's cool.

If I go to Burger King and enjoy my Run o the Mill Burger for $2, then I don't care that they bought out their new Free Range Metrosexual Burger and sell it for $8 even though it only has 50c more ingredients....so long as they still make my $2 burger that's just fine. If they dump mine and just make the $8 jobbie then they lost a customer, but otherwise I do not hold it against them to try and grow their business with other customers.

[Rabs]

Fender started the relic at the request of Keith Richards if I remember correctly and they have tons of custom shop offerings priced at thousands.

 

To me Gibson has a decent selection of prices, the 2017 Les Paul Classic was going for $1,800, that's a full featured guitar, full gloss, traditional appointments, etc. Sure there are some stupidly priced models but a lot of brands have that range of options.

 

An ES335 for $1,200 - $1,500? probably they could try and build it for that but that's not the sale price.

Well they did do a 335 studio

http://www.gibson.com/Products/Electric-Guitars/2015/Memphis/ES-335-Studio.aspx

[Riffster]

Well they did do a 335 studio

http://www.gibson.com/Products/Electric-Guitars/2015/Memphis/ES-335-Studio.aspx

 

There you go, that adds to the point I was trying to make, I do not get why the complaints about the higher priced instruments when there are plenty of options that are affordable.

[Guest Farnsbarns]

There you go, that adds to the point I was trying to make, I do not get why the complaints about the higher priced instruments when there are plenty of options that are affordable.

 

Sour grapes.

[Allenjason95]

Allen, I can agree with you except the Ford Focus is a POS. Talk about a fugly car... haha! Corvette on the other hand... real nice, but here in MI when you get snow and ice for a good chunk of the year - and the roads are absolute garbage, you have to be selective when to take that bad boy out on the road. That's why I have a nice Ram 1500 4x4 with a Hemi. This ain't getting stuck in snow Cars are something of attention around here in the Motor City. After all, I work for auto industry, and boy is it big around here, especially with the autonomous vehicle talk going on around here.

 

EDIT: Oh, and my Jackson is not goofy looking. Nice sharp points and I love the slanted headstock, pointier horns, and the deep cut around the upper frets. Super light and thin too. The Soloist is a nice piece of work too. But again, just my opinion as you have yours.

 

I actually really like the 2 door hatchback Focus. They maje an SVT version that’s pretty cool too. But it definitely isn’t going to get you any chicks.

 

As for the Jackson different strokes for different folks. Not my cup of tea.

[JayinLA]

Fender started the relic at the request of Keith Richards if I remember correctly and they have tons of custom shop offerings priced at thousands.

 

To me Gibson has a decent selection of prices, the 2017 Les Paul Classic was going for $1,800, that's a full featured guitar, full gloss, traditional appointments, etc. Sure there are some stupidly priced models but a lot of brands have that range of options.

 

An ES335 for $1,200 - $1,500? probably they could try and build it for that but that's not the sale price.

 

 

 

To put some perspective on this, the 'starter' Les Paul that Epiphone sells for $130 or whatever, they are building these 'instruments' for <$30 dollars a copy. That includes the slave labor and overhead of the 'workshop'.

 

The materials needed to build a custom shop 335 using the choicest quarter-sawn 'tonewoods' on the planet would cost me maybe $150 +/-. That includes me getting retailed on all the hardware, nitro cellulose, and everything else.

 

What I pay for when I buy a Gibson is the magic that happens in that workshop, the years of experience, the methods and track record of Gibson instruments. The question becomes, how much is that Gibson 'magic' worth to the buyer. For me, quite a bit. I have 2 Gibson Les Pauls, a Standard and a studio. I payed all the money for both of em, not to mention Gibsons which have come through my possession throughout my lifetime.

 

The issue is, there are other magicians with their own "keebler elves' making really fine guitars at more reasonable price point. I think many of us players are opting for less expensive magic.

 

As a deep coniseuir of Gibson's magic sound, my post is wishing Gibson would offer some 'more competitively priced magic'.

[Allenjason95]

Sour grapes.

 

Do you think repeating something makes it true?

 

Sour grapes would imply people are envious or jealous because they can’t afford one, which is silly. In the last 3-4 years I’ve spent $15,000 on guitars, pedals, amps etc.

 

I could buy that $4,000 dollar Special right now and I’m sure others here could too. $4,000 is a good chunk of change but even if you didn’t have the extra $4,000 in cash most people with a job could finance it if they wanted it.

 

Gibsons rep is bad enough right now. The new guitar market (if not Gibson itself, which is up for debate) is down right now. Making a $4,000 dollar Special when we all know it only has a few hundred bucks of material in it is just ridiculous. I’d say the same thing about any overpriced item. There are restaurants that serve hamburgers that cost hundreds of dollars. Is it “sour grapes” if people find that obscene?

 

Would you pay hundreds of dollars for a cocktail or a burger? If you say yes that says all that needs to be said about you on this subject.

[Allenjason95]

To put some perspective on this, the 'starter' Les Paul that Epiphone sells for $130 or whatever, they are building these 'instruments' for <$30 dollars a copy. That includes the slave labor and overhead of the 'workshop'.

 

The materials needed to build a custom shop 335 using the choicest quarter-sawn 'tonewoods' on the planet would cost me maybe $150 +/-. That includes me getting retailed on all the hardware, nitro cellulose, and everything else.

 

What I pay for when I buy a Gibson is the magic that happens in that workshop, the years of experience, the methods and track record of Gibson instruments. The question becomes, how much is that Gibson 'magic' worth to the buyer. For me, quite a bit. I have 2 Gibson Les Pauls, a Standard and a studio. I payed all the money for both of em, not to mention Gibsons which have come through my possession throughout my lifetime.

 

The issue is, there are other magicians with their own "keebler elves' making really fine guitars at more reasonable price point. I think many of us players are opting for less expensive magic.

 

As a deep coniseuir of Gibson's magic sound, my post is wishing Gibson would offer some 'more competitively priced magic'

 

I don’t think there’s any “magic” in Gibson’s workshop. They make good guitars but so do a lot of other companies. Like I said, I own Gibsons because they’re cool and they sound great and they have a cool factor. But I’m obviously paying a premium for “made in the USA” and the Gibson name. If you look at pictures of just about any great rock band you’ll see Gibsons.

 

And it’s not “slave labor”. Epiphone were made in Korea and Japan for years and some still are. I agree Chinese workers are getting screwed.

[rct]

Would you pay hundreds of dollars for a cocktail or a burger?

 

At Victoria and Alberts down there at the Grand Floridian in Disney World this one time we had Iranian caviar before we stopped importing things from Iran, especially their caviar. This was late 90's. It was stupid expensive in an already stupid expensive dinner for two. The caviar and the Clicquot were like eating with God, it was that good. I didn't care what it cost.

 

rct

[JayinLA]

At Victoria and Alberts down there at the Grand Floridian in Disney World this one time we had Iranian caviar before we stopped importing things from Iran, especially their caviar. This was late 90's. It was stupid expensive in an already stupid expensive dinner for two. The caviar and the Clicquot were like eating with God, it was that good. I didn't care what it cost.

 

rct

 

 

I got lucky playing blackjack in Vegas with the ex. I probably won $15,000 on a $10 table in like 40 minutes. I bought a pair of boots for almost $4k. We ate dinner at Delmonico's, Emeril's steakhouse. Yeah, they are in my closet. Goin to wear em to the wife's company Christmas party on Saturday.

[rct]

I got lucky playing blackjack in Vegas with the ex. I probably won $15,000 on a $10 table in like 40 minutes. I bought a pair of boots for almost $4k. We ate dinner at Delmonico's, Emeril's steakhouse. Yeah, they are in my closet. Goin to wear em to the wife's company Christmas party on Saturday.

 

ooohhh Vegas. Picasso in Bellagio. Yikes. Lots of good meals there.

 

After scoring me an EJRW stracaster in the right color for my 55th, Mrs took me to Emerils at the big hotel in Universal. Gawd DAM them peoples cook. The on in the park at Universal is good, been there a couple, but man that one in the big hotel is just frig. Man. I'm hungry.

 

rct

[JayinLA]

ooohhh Vegas. Picasso in Bellagio. Yikes. Lots of good meals there.

 

After scoring me an EJRW stracaster in the right color for my 55th, Mrs took me to Emerils at the big hotel in Universal. Gawd DAM them peoples cook. The on in the park at Universal is good, been there a couple, but man that one in the big hotel is just frig. Man. I'm hungry.

 

rct

 

Why do ya think these great acts do 'residency' in Vegas? They know where the viddles are!!

[Riffster]

Do you think repeating something makes it true?

 

Sour grapes would imply people are envious or jealous because they can’t afford one, which is silly. In the last 3-4 years I’ve spent $15,000 on guitars, pedals, amps etc.

 

I could buy that $4,000 dollar Special right now and I’m sure others here could too. $4,000 is a good chunk of change but even if you didn’t have the extra $4,000 in cash most people with a job could finance it if they wanted it.

 

Gibsons rep is bad enough right now. The new guitar market (if not Gibson itself, which is up for debate) is down right now. Making a $4,000 dollar Special when we all know it only has a few hundred bucks of material in it is just ridiculous. I’d say the same thing about any overpriced item. There are restaurants that serve hamburgers that cost hundreds of dollars. Is it “sour grapes” if people find that obscene?

 

Would you pay hundreds of dollars for a cocktail or a burger? If you say yes that says all that needs to be said about you on this subject.

 

I think the sour grapes comment was based on that guitar forum folklor indicates that if you buy one of those super expensive guitars that the rest of us thinks is absurdly overpriced then must not know how to play it.

 

It is the same mentality from folks that say "I rather be healthy than rich" as if they were mutually exclusive, in reality there are rich people that are healthy as hell, rosie cheeks and all that can play the hell out of a guitar too.

 

(To me) being rich and paying for seemingly overpriced products do not make you stupid or a poser as that is a matter of perspective, many Epiphone players think that way about those of us paying Gibson prices.

 

But with social media guitar forum folklor is strong.

 

Recently I saw a few guitars the Gibson Custom Shop posted on Facebook, and I did wonder who buys this stuff? because someone does. And not a week later at a show, there it is one of the guitar players in a band playing one of them, the following week bam! another one. Then not too much later I see Nikki Sixx of Motley Crue on vacation and he's holding a Firebird that was a special run. Then the guy that is Aquaman buys two Slash Firebirds and he can play them!

 

There are tons of people that buy "humble" guitars and they do not know how to play them but guitar forums do not seem to address that. This, ties into the sour grapes comment.

[Allenjason95]

I think the sour grapes comment was based on that guitar forum folklor indicates that if you buy one of those super expensive guitars that the rest of us thinks is absurdly overpriced then must not know how to play it.

 

It is the same mentality from folks that say "I rather be healthy than rich" as if they were mutually exclusive, in reality there are rich people that are healthy as hell, rosie cheeks and all that can play the hell out of a guitar too.

 

(To me) being rich and paying for seemingly overpriced products do not make you stupid or a poser as that is a matter of perspective, many Epiphone players think that way about those of us paying Gibson prices.

 

But with social media guitar forum folklor is strong.

 

Recently I saw a few guitars the Gibson Custom Shop posted on Facebook, and I did wonder who buys this stuff? because someone does. And not a week later at a show, there it is one of the guitar players in a band playing one of them, the following week bam! another one. Then not too much later I see Nikki Sixx of Motley Crue on vacation and he's holding a Firebird that was a special run. Then the guy that is Aquaman buys two Slash Firebirds and he can play them!

 

There are tons of people that buy "humble" guitars and they do not know how to play them but guitar forums do not seem to address that. This, ties into the sour grapes comment.

 

That’s not what “sour grapes” means or implies here. A person may be able to play a like EVH, that Special is still absurdly overpriced.

 

I didn’t say anything about playing ability. Lord knows I’m no great shakes myself.

[Rabs]

That's what I meant.. People ARE obviously buying them at that price.

 

Something is only worth what someone will pay for it.. If people pay for it, then it must be worth it to them....

[Allenjason95]

That's what I meant.. People ARE obviously buying them at that price.

 

Something is only worth what someone will pay for it.. If people pay for it, then it must be worth it to them....

 

Yeah, the second they play it it’s used. Then how much is it worth?

 

I’m not saying regular Gibsons aren’t overpriced, I always buy used and let someone else take that hit. I’ve never paid over $2,200 (I think, it’s been a while, might have been a few bucks more) for a Gibson and that was a near mint Custom. If I had to sell it I could get that back.

 

Anyone can buy anything if they have the money, more power to them. It doesn’t make that price any less absurd.