crossroadsnyc Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 I'm too lazy to post the photos, nor do I want to take credit for finding them, but if you scroll down about half way on this link there are a couple of pretty good examples of weight relief holes and chambering. http://forums.gibson.com/Default.aspx?g=posts&m=92160 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AXE® Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chongo Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 As I understand it, the way that the holes were "found out" was that some of them weren't cleaned out properly. Customers were getting guitars that could be shaken like a maraca, with bits of something or other left over from the manufacturing process rattling around in one or more of the weight relief holes. Since the owner couldn't figure out what the heck could be happening, he had the guitar x-rayed, then raised a stink until Gibson came clean. That story may be apocryphal, but I'm thinking it's based on truth <G><G> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crossroadsnyc Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 As I understand it' date=' the way that the holes were "found out" was that some of them weren't cleaned out properly. Customers were getting guitars that could be shaken like a maraca, with bits of something or other left over from the manufacturing process rattling around in one or more of the weight relief holes. Since the owner couldn't figure out what the heck could be happening, he had the guitar x-rayed, then raised a stink until Gibson came clean. That story may be apocryphal, but I'm thinking it's based on truth <G><G> [/quote'] Yeah, I've heard something along the same lines, Chongo...I think you're right. Though, I think the story I heard was in reference to the chambered LP's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max2343 Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 This is what they are doing in their so called "CHAMBERING PROCESS" on chambered Gibsons. Don't know about anyone but myself, but this pissed me off the first time I seen it, and still does. Weight-relieved is for wimps and girls, like all those that complained for years about the good old Gibsons that made Gibson do this. I'm a old Rocker man and if I want a Hollow body, I'd pick me up a bigger bodied 335 with a soild maple center block. Oh yea as for the swiss cheesed pauls, this is about the only hole I'd consider in an Axe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AXE® Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Robots are swiss cheese aka weight relieved also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max2343 Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 As I understand it' date=' the way that the holes were "found out" was that some of them weren't cleaned out properly. Customers were getting guitars that could be shaken like a maraca, with bits of something or other left over from the manufacturing process rattling around in one or more of the weight relief holes. Since the owner couldn't figure out what the heck could be happening, he had the guitar x-rayed, then raised a stink until Gibson came clean. That story may be apocryphal, but I'm thinking it's based on truth <G><G> [/quote'] And does anyone remember just how long (how many years) they were doing this, before they were forced to come clean and notify their custmers (us) that this was going on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max2343 Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Robots are swiss cheese aka weight relieved also. I know Axe, and I know where you are coming from, but your wrong. My Robot's, a Mean Green SG and I don't think my Explorer Reissue is SWISSED CHESSED. My other Gibson is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AXE® Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Well duh !!! LOL!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crossroadsnyc Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 I know Axe' date=' and I know where you are coming from, but your wrong. My Robot's, a Mean Green SG and I don't think my Explorer Reissue is SWISSED CHESSED. My other Gibson is[/quote'] So, Max, I take it you have a chambered LP that you are unhappy with? Found this out after you purchased it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max2343 Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 No, not Chambered. Just swissed cheesed. I had saved photos of both but deleted the photo of the swissed cheesed one, just couldn't look at no more. I have a Studio. My first brand new Gibson, ever. Sounds O.K. and Yea a bit of a disappointment, not just in sound but also Quality. Too bad really though, now it a beater. It's a BFG GOTW for 2007. One would of thought that maybe they would of payed a little more than usual attention to those. Being limited to 400 or less, but they didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketman Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Swiss Cheese/Solid Body = smooth (jazzy) cleans. Chambered Les Pauls = punchy (bluesy) cleans. Swiss cheese or solid bodied Les Pauls also seem to have more 'depth' to their tone with a wider dynamic range (in general). I agree with this too. I did a test a little while ago comparing my Swiss cheesed one to my chambered one. it is again. The second one in each riff is the chambered one. OK' date=' I don't want to toot my own horn much but I actually did my Ph.D. dissertation on control of vibratory systems (at the time it was for control of space station-like truss structures). All guitars essential act like a flexible beam with many vibrational modes. I can absolutely tell you that drilling a hole in a guitar body will affect its sound. It's just a matter of how much. Here's a modal analysis of an Epiphone Coronet. The FRF is a actually a bit strange looking though because I wouldn't expect the higher modes to have nearly the same order of magnitude as the first mode. Anyhow, I bet that the FRF for each type of guitar (solid, Swiss cheesed, chambered) will have a different curve. Can we find a footprint for each? This would certainly be an interesting test. I just to borrow Tim's R9 for a little while... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeoConMan Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Rocketman, thanks for the data! Sure there's a difference, and I'm glad somebody quantified it. (Think Gibson never bothered....?) As far as what you can hear subjectively, that's a tough one. Swiss Cheese started in maybe 1982, probably 1983. There were indeed some with the wood chip maracas effect. The chambering does NOT harm the sound of the Elegant and others done like that. Wood selection beforehand takes care of it, I've played a bunch of 'em. A little different? Okay. But there's nothing WRONG with 'em. Me? I STILL want my Les Paul as solid as they get, I'll deal with the weight. I know the ones I have are not solid, but they work like an old LP as far as I can tell. Remember, ALL Les Pauls have alot of wood removed from the body for wiring purposes. See the X-ray Axe posted, look around the pickups and see the cavity from the selector to the knob cavity. ALL LES PAULS HAVE THIS. The Swiss Cheese holes are the only difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky4 Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 You're a idiot !!!!... You're a(n) idiot (improper English) Show some text to go with the picture so you can disprove a quote from Tim Shaw, the Gibson engineer who designed the weight relief Les Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crossroadsnyc Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Suggested reading for tomorrow: http://www.amazon.com/How-Win-Friends-Influence-People/dp/0671723650 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jantha Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 This is an x-ray image showing the weight relief holes behind the tailpiece. I guess that'll do it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AXE® Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Again... Book boy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackHawk233 Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 That Les Paul looks Comfy, and really messed up with the inverted colors, and the x-ray... Dunno, just a cool pic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketman Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 Show some text to go with the picture so you can disprove a quote from Tim Shaw' date=' the Gibson engineer who designed the weight relief Les Paul[/quote'] I doubt that any exists. I'm sure that they did their own sound tests to optimize both the number and locations of the holes (most likely a combination of experiments and a finite element model). But my point is the optimization scheme cannot fully recover the original solid sound (it may get close with one or two modes, but all modes contribute to the overall sound). Bottom line, it may be close in sound but some players will certainly be able to tell the difference. There is no right or wrong in the end. It's just what you prefer or what you don't care about when you are looking to do your price versus sound tradeoff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky4 Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 You go to Photobucket, find that picture and you think you got it? I'm done with this. Believe what you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 You go to Photobucket' date=' find that picture and you think you got it? I'm done with this. Believe what you want.[/quote'] Thank Christ for that. Idiot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AXE® Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Idiot. This made an old man smile ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketman Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 According to Gibson' date=' they have done extensive testing and as long as the holes are not near the bridge or tailpiece (which would affect sustain),[b'] they do not have an adverse impact on tone.[/b] In your own words you state that it does not have an adverse impact on tone. But that doesn't mean that tone won't be affected. All of us who have played them can hear the difference. I like the sound of all of them, but tone is in fact affected... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AXE® Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 You go to Photobucket' date=' find that picture and you think you got it? I'm done with this. Believe what you want.[/quote'] I think this persons point is, he doesn't believe that the pre 2006 Standards and Modern Traditionals have the swiss cheese holes drilled in the upper rear horn of the guitars. Like the xray photos show. Which anyone with a smidge of Gibson knowledge knows to be fact . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurt Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 Give him a break! Different opinions is what makes a forum interesting. And I really don´t think it´s good calling who ever an idiot. Greetings Kurt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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