Violeiro Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 (edited) I am about to pull the trigger on this guitar, not sure what is the negotiation room... I have always bought Martin guitars and want to give this a shot.... On Martin guitars I can get about 40% off MSRP (list price on their website) from an online authorized dealer. Is that such a thing with Gibson guitars? This specific Montana has the thermally aged spruce top Model Hummingbird Vintage 2019 Finish Color Vintage Cherry Sunburst Finish Type Thin Finish - Hand Rubbed VOS Top Wood Thermally Aged Sitka Spruce Bracing Scalloped Traditional Hummingbird Back & Sides Wood Mahogany Neck Wood Mahogany Neck Joint Compound dovetail secured with hide glue at the 14th fret Neck Shape Rounded Neck Dimensions .860 1st - .920 9th Fretboard Material Rosewood Fingerboard Inlays Mother of Pearl Parallelogram Scale Length 24-3/4" Width at Nut 1.725" Nut Material Bone Headstock Mother of Pearl Crown Inlay Binding Multi-Ply on Top and Back Tuners Aged Gold Gotoh Bridge Indian Rosewood Belly-up Saddle Bone Saddle Spacing 2 3/16” Pickguard Tortoise Hummingbird Style Case Gibson Hardshell Case Edited September 20, 2019 by Condition1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWG4927 Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 You should be able to just about get to that number. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave F Posted September 20, 2019 Share Posted September 20, 2019 I've always been able to get 40% off list with a few 5 Star dealers. Harder to do with the big box stores unless you can get a manager that will deal with you. I've gotten more if the guitar has been setting around for over a year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortyearspickn Posted September 21, 2019 Share Posted September 21, 2019 You might get 40% on a 2018 in some models. But the H'Bird Vintage is more desirable, harder to find and in the current model year - I'd not hold my breath. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violeiro Posted September 23, 2019 Author Share Posted September 23, 2019 Thanks for all your help guys, pulled the trigger... incoming - https://www.gibson.com/Guitar/ACCNJZ570/Hummingbird-Vintage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-minor7 Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 3 hours ago, Condition1 said: incoming - Hallouza - it's beautiful. Look forward to see the real thing. These Birds are (still) mesmerizing - and with the right action they play and sound like heaven. Post stuff from there ^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 Could one of the Bird experts explain to me what is the difference between this 'Vintage' model with torrefied Sitka top and a played in Standard model 4 or 5 years old or 10? (A new J45 vintage also with torrefied top here is going for $Aus7599, while a Standard is going for $Aus4399. A new Standard Bird Cherry is going for $Aus5,999 while a used 2017 is going for$Aus3,800......) BluesKing777. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violeiro Posted September 24, 2019 Author Share Posted September 24, 2019 16 minutes ago, BluesKing777 said: Could one of the Bird experts explain to me what is the difference between this 'Vintage' model with torrefied Sitka top and a played in Standard model 4 or 5 years old or 10? (A new J45 vintage also with torrefied top here is going for $Aus7599, while a Standard is going for $Aus4399. A new Standard Bird Cherry is going for $Aus5,999 while a used 2017 is going for$Aus3,800......) BluesKing777. Not a Hummingbird expert by any means. The torrefied top (baked top) is an aging process, supposedly ages 10 years (at least that is my understanding). Compared to a standard vintage there are more differences than just the baked top, which adds to the sound - i.e. hide glue, the scalloped braces are more aggressive, it also uses bone for the nut, saddle and pins while the standard is tusq, the finish is thinner also, which again supposedly adds to the sound differences. The new J45 vintage I believe is Adirondack right? I know of one selling at the Martin forum - 2019 Adi baked top and all the vintages goodies for $3K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-minor7 Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 32 minutes ago, BluesKing777 said: Could one of the Bird experts explain to me what is the difference between this 'Vintage' model with torrefied Sitka top and a played in Standard model 4 or 5 years old or 10? A Standard or True Vintage Bird won't age to the same state of dryness over a decade. They may head in the same direction, but the baked flavor is much more radical than what you get in a normal piece of spruce at the other side of only 10 years. Well, my contemporary H-Birds are from 12 and the F-ditto and my J-45 are from 10. They all age and break in nicely, but not reaching the significant 'porous' voice and special response of the torrified tops (don't recall if the Vintage-braces are baked too). Would like to hear others experiences/thoughts here. The basic difference is an exciting topic. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 13 hours ago, E-minor7 said: A Standard or True Vintage Bird won't age to the same state of dryness over a decade. They may head in the same direction, but the baked flavor is much more radical than what you get in a normal piece of spruce at the other side of only 10 years. Well, my contemporary H-Birds are from 12 and the F-ditto and my J-45 are from 10. They all age and break in nicely, but not reaching the significant 'porous' voice and special response of the torrified tops (don't recall if the Vintage-braces are baked too). Would like to hear others experiences/thoughts here. The basic difference is an exciting topic. I haven't played a terrified-top 'Bird to make a valid comparison, but you pay a huge "prestige" or "rarity" penalty for torrefied tops right now. You can get an idea of the actual difference in material costs by the following comparisons from Stewmac for torrefied vs. non-torrefied materials. These are current quotes for book-matched dreadnought-sized soundboard sets: AAAA non-torrefied sitka: $109 AAA non-torrefied sitka: $70 AAA torrefied sitka: $87 AAA torrefied old-growth red spruce: $490 AAA non-torrefied old-growth red spruce: $416 Cost differential between torrefied vs non-torrefied top brace material is about $3 per stick, or maybe $20 difference for enough material to brace an entire dread-sized top. In other words, you are paying a serious premium over actual cost differential for a new guitar with torrefied top materials. Or, you can do what a lot of us do, and buy 70-year-old guitars with "naturally aged" tops and all-hide-glue construction. Just don't expect a brand-new guitar, not that this matters to a lot of us. If I were buying a new guitar--which I'm not--I would pay a premium for a torrefied top, but not the premium they seem to be asking. However, most vintage-spec'd new Gibsons have other "vintage" features that may not be so simply quantified. You pays your money, and you makes yer choice. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violeiro Posted September 24, 2019 Author Share Posted September 24, 2019 (edited) 39 minutes ago, j45nick said: [...] If I were buying a new guitar--which I'm not--I would pay a premium for a torrefied top, but not the premium they seem to be asking. However, most vintage-spec'd new Gibsons have other "vintage" features that may not be so simply quantified. [...] I agree with you on the torrefied top. Not justifying but justifying there are other specs on the true vintage vs the vintage as well that adds to the price difference, if the $1K+ difference was just for the top I would agree 110% with you. For me: 1. Hide glue 2. Aggressive scalloped bracing 3. Thin finish 4. VOS (for visual only for those who care, I don't but am ok with it) 5. Bone saddle, nut, pins instead of tusq 6. Tuners 7. Personal preference: I don't like factory installed electronics, I like 100% acoustic, if I want to add a pickup it goes on the soundboard that I can remove whenever I want...no buttons or windows on the wood for controls or battery.... I also don't like guitar strap buttons on the neck heal, I like the old guitar strap to the headstock setup. I see what you are saying with the torrefied top, but when you consider the whole package for a bit over $1K I think it is an ok deal.... Edited September 24, 2019 by Condition1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 47 minutes ago, Condition1 said: I agree with you on the torrefied top. Not justifying but justifying there are other specs on the true vintage vs the vintage as well that adds to the price difference, if the $1K+ difference was just for the top I would agree 110% with you. I see what you are saying with the torrefied top, but when you consider the whole package for a bit over $1K I think it is an ok deal.... I don't disagree with what so say in any significant way. However, I don't believe these are all-hide-glue construction. Typically, higher-end "vintage"-model Gibsons use the standard hide glue neck joint that almost all Gibsons use, plus they often use hide glue for the top bracing. For all-hide construction, you generally have to go into Legend-series guitars or other special order models. Or buy vintage. Also not sure what "aggressive" top brace scalloping is, since almost all current Gibsons use scalloped top bracing. Interestingly, no "real" vintage 'Birds probably used scalloped top bracing, as Gibson stopped using scalloped top bracing sometime around 1954 or so, well before the first Hummingbird was built. The return to scalloped top bracing, I believe, can be traced to Ren Ferguson in the Bozeman era. Beware of marketing hype. Like you, I don't want electronics in any of my Gibson acoustics. I don't play out, so I don't need amplification. I do have a '59 Historic ES-335 that I play amplified, when and if I'm interested in that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violeiro Posted September 24, 2019 Author Share Posted September 24, 2019 (edited) 2 minutes ago, j45nick said: I don't disagree with what so say in any significant way. However, I don't believe these are all-hide-glue construction. Typically, higher-end "vintage"-model Gibsons use the standard hide glue neck joint that almost all Gibsons use, plus they often use hide glue for the top bracing. For all-hide construction, you generally have to go into Legend-series guitars or other special order models. Or buy vintage. Also not sure what "aggressive" top brace scalloping is, since almost all current Gibsons use scalloped top bracing. Interestingly, no "real" vintage 'Birds probably used scalloped top bracing, as Gibson stopped using scalloped top bracing sometime around 1954 or so, well before the first Hummingbird was built. The return to scalloped top bracing, I believe, can be traced to Ren Ferguson in the Bozeman era. Beware of marketing hype. Like you, I don't want electronics in any of my Gibson acoustics. I don't play out, so I don't need amplification. I do have a '59 Historic ES-335 that I play amplified, when and if I'm interested in that. Very informative for sure. The bracing I am taking from some reviews online, this video actually describes well the difference between the standard vintage vs the true vintage Btw, thanks for educating me... I am completely new to Gibson guitars! Edited September 24, 2019 by Condition1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j45nick Posted September 24, 2019 Share Posted September 24, 2019 The "vintage-style" bracing Tony shows in that video is closely related to the "advanced" bracing Gibson used on some models beginning in the 1930's. Notably, the x-brace is opened up and sometimes shifted forward with the axis closer to the soundhole, creating (as I understand it) a freer-vibrating top in the bass bout. Think original Gibson AJ (Advanced Jumbo) here. I suspect these vintage-model 'Birds are really good, but I also suspect their tone is quite a bit different from a 'Bird from the early 1960's. There are folks here who are 'Bird specialists--think Em7--who could articulate those differences. Be forewarned that Em7's comments can be as poetic as they are descriptive, not that there's anything wrong with his poetry. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted September 25, 2019 Share Posted September 25, 2019 (edited) Well I asked about the torrefaction because they are way, way more than a $1000 extra here! (This all started when I spied a used cheap(er) Bird Standard locally, but it has a lot of wear including a bent tuning peg from a smash?) Standard Aust Dollar $5,599: https://guitarfactory.net/collections/gibson-acoustic-guitars/products/gibson-hummingbird-acoustic-guitar-heritage-burst-image-coming Vintage Aust Dollar $7,199: https://guitarfactory.net/collections/gibson-acoustic-guitars/products/gibson-hummingbird-acoustic-guitar-heritage-burst-image-coming I currently own 2 acoustics with torrefied tops - my Taylor 717e with sitka over rosewood and my Martin OM18 Authentic with adi over mahogany. I have not played the similar model Taylor with NO torrefied top so I can't compare, but I do own a Martin OM18V with plain (kiln dried?) sitka over mahogany. They are still very hard to compare because the Authentic is like a supercharged guitar - but the OM18V is nearly 20 years old now and still sounds new like a lot of Martins can, whereas the Authentic sounds like it could be from 1930....which was the original claim! Just not sure about the Gibson torrefaction, played both and...err don't know (they want Aust Dollar $7,599 for the torrefied J45!) Here are 2 vids: Standard: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuKoWXIjtv4&list=PLSWYL844Gvsizgx-y2VtNN6Nn_j125k_B&index=14&t=0s Torrefied: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ_IanHETvg&list=PLSWYL844Gvsizgx-y2VtNN6Nn_j125k_B&index=2&t=0s BluesKing777. Edited September 25, 2019 by BluesKing777 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Violeiro Posted September 25, 2019 Author Share Posted September 25, 2019 (edited) I have to say that the Sitka torrefied top is definitely a big leg up over the non-torrefied. I have had a Martin D-18 standard Sitka, and a D-18 torrefied Stika, which ate the non-torrified for lunch... it was really really nice, sold because I found a D-18 with Adirondack that I liked best and could not justify the others, I had all three at the same time, played all three side my side multiple times. I personally prefer Adirondack tops, however I was really after the Hummingbird sound, and the sound comes from the Sitka torrefied (or an older naturally aged standard Sitka) combined with the way it is built....I thought about a custom with Adi top, but it would not give me the Bird sound. I also currently have a D-28 Adi top and brace, and a 000-28 Adi top and GE brace, and a Taylor 412-R (rosewood b&s and Sitka top). Although I agree it is a premium, having a choice and the cash I will always take a baked Sitka over the non-baked one. Edited September 25, 2019 by Condition1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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