columbine and gun control???

[Hoyt]

Quote: The NRA type saw is always " criminals will always find guns" but how do they find them? Maybe some tighter regulation on dealers on to WHO they sell to' date=' more than WHAT they sell? I dont know. AND I tend to agree with the your take on gun control.

 

LOOK AT MEXICO -- they had absolute prohibition on guns -- illegal to possess as much as an empty shell casing. They toss you in a Mexican prison and forget you. Hellish anti gun laws. So nobody has any guns right? WRONG. The criminals have 50 caliber machines guns and guns "capable of shooting down aircraft!" The criminals travel around in CONVOYS like the military. Now the streets of most of the border cities are patrolled by the Army. Humvee's, 50 calibers mounted, Armored Personnel Carriers, Assault vehicles. Mexico is a military stet now. That is what gun control laws get you.

 

In the US we have tried to prohibit alcohol. Read the history of THAT. Here in the U.S. we prohibit non-prescription drugs -- read the history to THAT. At one time there were laws (in the U.S.) prohibiting abortion -- read the history of that.

 

Conclusion: it is impossible to ENFORCE absolute prohibitions and it gives rise to extreme criminality every time. IN FACT -- you cannot force the population to do what it does not agree with -- including stop signs, cell phone in cars and seat belts. If 95% basically agree with the law, then you can force then 5% to comply. If 95% do not agree (draft card burners) there aren't enough resources to force it to happen. (Witness Mexico)(today)

[/quote']

 

 

Yep, American guns get sold in Mexico so they can shoot us or themselves. Gun dealers along the border are only too happy to sell guns to shills, knowing they'll likely go to Mexico. More money for retailers -- who cares if someone gets killed (you know, the guns don't kill BS).

 

Only in America would someone attempt to rationalize that to support their gun habit.

[TommyK]

It is OUR fault that AKs got exported out of our country into Mx. It is THEIR fault their government turned a blind eye to drug trafficing for so many years it got out of control. It is OUR fault illegal drug use is tollerated in this country.

 

Those AKs have already come back to us attached to drug dealers. The Mx Military has already made an incursion into the US in persuit of a Border Patrol agent. (Didn't know that did you?) August, 2008, Let me repeat Mxn military made an armed incursion into US soil. Just south and west of Tucson.

 

How come the Big Three media outlets let that one go?

[ninety1vee]

german luger:

 

whoa! I LOVE GERMAN GUNS!

i've only shot one of those once and it aimed itself' date=' you get that off a dead hun?

and cool pics of your little sniper, i learned on a .22 rifle ages ago

since i'm not 21 yet, i can't have a pistol, but i do have one of these

[img']http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm122/ojenkins10/HK91/IMG_0943.jpg[/img]

cocked, locked, and ready to rock. the desert won't know what hit it!

and NO hoyt, it's semi auto, so i don't consider it an "assault" weapon

 

plus, semi auto is more accurate, the way i like it

[Hoyt]

 

whoa! I LOVE GERMAN GUNS!

i've only shot one of those once and it aimed itself' date= you get that off a dead hun?

and cool pics of your little sniper, i learned on a .22 rifle ages ago

since i'm not 21 yet, i can't have a pistol, but i do have one of these

cocked, locked, and ready to rock. the desert won't know what hit it!

and NO hoyt, it's semi auto, so i don't consider it an "assault" weapon

 

plus, semi auto is more accurate, the way i like it

 

 

Geez, when I was 20 my thoughts were elsewhere.

[FennRx]

 

Geez' date=' when I was 20 my thoughts were elsewhere. [/quote']

 

trying to find your next score of ZIMA?

[KSG_Standard]

 

trying to find your next score of ZIMA?

 

 

 

;) =D>

[pumpkin]

 

whoa!:- I LOVE GERMAN GUNS!

i've only shot one of those once and it aimed itself' date=' you get that off a dead hun?

and cool pics of your little sniper, i learned on a .22 rifle ages ago[/quote']

 

thanks so much!

[FirstMeasure]

 

LOL me too.

 

I love the look of guns' date=' but prefer it to be on Bond on my x box LOL

 

Matt[/quote']

You don't know what your missing. It's the difference between Guitar and Guitar Hero.

[TommyK]

NEED TO FIX YOUR SPELLIN'

 

You don't know what your missing. It's the difference between Guitar and Guitar Zero.

 

There... all better.

[charlie brown]

And I went up there, I said, "Shrink, I want to kill. I mean, I wanna, I

wanna kill. Kill. I wanna, I wanna see, I wanna see blood and gore and

guts and veins in my teeth. Eat dead burnt bodies. I mean kill, Kill,

KILL, KILL." And I started jumpin up and down yelling, "KILL, KILL," and

he started jumpin up and down with me and we was both jumping up and down

yelling, "KILL, KILL." And the sargent came over, pinned a medal on me,

sent me down the hall, said, "You're our boy."

;>)

 

CB

[FennRx]

ZIMA' date=' is this what you mean?[/url']

 

In another thread on the gun argument this there was an academic argument by a Guy called Mauser.( I wondered if it was a Joke.)

WW II captured German Mauser for sale?

 

 

 

dead links

[mrktwn]

 

 

Geez' date=' when I was 20 my thoughts were elsewhere. [/quote']Well no, that is an assault weapon. A semi-automatic assault weapon but an assault weapon none the less. Strictly speaking.

[MReynolds]

 

 

Yep' date=' American guns get sold in Mexico so they can shoot us or themselves. Gun dealers along the border are only too happy to sell guns to shills, knowing they'll likely go to Mexico. More money for retailers -- who cares if someone gets killed (you know, the guns don't kill BS).

 

Only in America would someone attempt to rationalize that to support their gun habit.[/quote']

 

Patently false. The real statistics are:

 

In 2007-2008, according to ATF Special Agent William Newell, Mexico submitted 11,000 guns to the ATF for tracing. Close to 6,000 were successfully traced -- and of those, 90 percent -- 5,114 to be exact, according to testimony in Congress by William Hoover -- were found to have come from the U.S.

 

But in those same two years, according to the Mexican government, 29,000 guns were recovered at crime scenes.

 

In other words, 68 percent of the guns that were recovered were never submitted for tracing. And when you weed out the roughly 6,000 guns that could not be traced from the remaining 32 percent, it means 83 percent of the guns found at crime scenes in Mexico could not be traced to the U.S.

 

So, if not from the U.S., where do they come from? There are a variety of sources:

 

-- The Black Market. Mexico is a virtual arms bazaar, with fragmentation grenades from South Korea, AK-47s from China, and shoulder-fired rocket launchers from Spain, Israel and former Soviet bloc manufacturers.

 

-- Russian crime organizations. Interpol says Russian Mafia groups such as Poldolskaya and Moscow-based Solntsevskaya are actively trafficking drugs and arms in Mexico.

 

- South America. During the late 1990s, the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) established a clandestine arms smuggling and drug trafficking partnership with the Tijuana cartel, according to the Federal Research Division report from the Library of Congress.

 

-- Asia. According to a 2006 Amnesty International Report, China has provided arms to countries in Asia, Africa and Latin America. Chinese assault weapons and Korean explosives have been recovered in Mexico.

 

-- The Mexican Army. More than 150,000 soldiers deserted in the last six years, according to Mexican Congressman Robert Badillo. Many took their weapons with them, including the standard issue M-16 assault rifle made in Belgium.

 

-- Guatemala. U.S. intelligence agencies say traffickers move immigrants, stolen cars, guns and drugs, including most of America's cocaine, along the porous Mexican-Guatemalan border. On March 27, La Hora, a Guatemalan newspaper, reported that police seized 500 grenades and a load of AK-47s on the border. Police say the cache was transported by a Mexican drug cartel operating out of Ixcan, a border town.

[MReynolds]

One other tidbit...I heard on the radio yesterday that at Columbine at the time of the shootings, there was an ARMED guard (off duty cop I believe) at the school.

 

Unfortunately at the time of the shooting he had gone to lunch.

 

If he had someone to relieve him that was also armed I highly doubt that the two shooters would have done as much damage as they did.

[FennRx]

Well no' date=' that is an assault weapon. A semi-automatic assault weapon but an assault weapon none the less. Strictly speaking.[/quote']

 

strictly speaking, you are wrong.

 

an assault weapon or rifle is an infantry rifle capable of selective fire- ie switching from semi-auto to 3 round burst and/or fully automatic. it comes from the STG44, a selective fire weapon developed by the Germans during WWII. these kinds of weapons have been illegal (with some exceptions) since the 1930s. only 2 legally owned machine guns have been used in a crime since the law was enacted, one ironically by a LEO.

 

the legal definition of an assault rifle under the US AWB of the 1990s is different than the true definition of the word. Under the AWB, many types of weapons were listed as "assault weapons," including military look-a-likes (AR15) and semi-auto handguns with magazines holding more than 10 rounds. it even outlawed certain kinds of barrel shrouds. yep, barrel shrouds....because certain types of shrouds have been shown to increase criminal activity.

 

just because the government or hoyt says something doesnt make it so.

[TommyK]

 

Patently false. The real statistics are:

 

In 2007-2008' date=' according to ATF Special Agent William Newell, Mexico submitted 11,000 guns to the ATF for tracing. Close to 6,000 were successfully traced -- and of those, 90 percent -- 5,114 to be exact, according to testimony in Congress by William Hoover -- were found to have come from the U.S.

 

But in those same two years, according to the Mexican government, 29,000 guns were recovered at crime scenes.

 

[b']In other words, 68 percent of the guns that were recovered were never submitted for tracing. And when you weed out the roughly 6,000 guns that could not be traced from the remaining 32 percent, it means 83 percent of the guns found at crime scenes in Mexico could not be traced to the U.S.[/b]

 

...

 

Ya see.... Daddy was right. Figures don't lie, but liars figure. The Big Three only tells us the 90% part. They gloss over the 'of the ones submitted. Bloody 'ell, if they culled out just 600 more of them we'd be at 100%.

 

Still, I see a problem with someone in this country exporting imported weaponry to a country whose military has, multiple times in the past, invaded our country.... Most recently, last fall.

[mrktwn]

 

strictly speaking' date=' you are wrong.

 

an assault weapon or rifle is an infantry rifle capable of selective fire- ie switching from semi-auto to 3 round burst and/or fully automatic. it comes from the STG44, a selective fire weapon developed by the Germans during WWII. these kinds of weapons have been illegal (with some exceptions) since the 1930s. only 2 legally owned machine guns have been used in a crime since the law was enacted, one ironically by a LEO.

 

the legal definition of an assault rifle under the US AWB of the 1990s is different than the true definition of the word. Under the AWB, many types of weapons were listed as "assault weapons," including military [b']look-a-likes[/b] (AR15) and semi-auto handguns with magazines holding more than 10 rounds. it even outlawed certain kinds of barrel shrouds. yep, barrel shrouds....because certain types of shrouds have been shown to increase criminal activity.:D

 

just because the government or hoyt says something doesnt make it so.

I understand all this, but strictly speaking on design terms a G3 is an assault weapon. Assault rifle really.

[TommyK]

TommyK -- I

 

Some links

http://mcauleysworld.wordpress.com/2009/04/16/home-land-security-head-napolitano/

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/first100days/2009/04/16/napolitano-apologizes-offending-veterans-dhs-eyes-rightwing-extremism/

http://mcauleysworld.wordpress.com/2009/04/16/homeland-securitys-napolitano-insults-veterans-unions-gun-owners-and-pro-life/

http://wnd.com/images/dhs-rightwing-extremism.pdf

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/04/08/gun.control.poll/

http://home.earthlink.net/~mmmhiggins/RightBareArms.html

http://republicanleader.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=122567

http://www.dakotavoice.com/2009/04/napolitano-defends-pro-life-inclusion-in-extremist-report/

http://www.dakotavoice.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/cartoon_hereinmyhands.jpg

 

Americans like Tea Parties.:

http://www.dakotavoice.com/2009/04/poll-most-americans-like-the-tea-parties/

 

...

 

Thanks for the links Gitfidl. Why am I not surprised this is the first I've heard of Napolitano's gaffe? Why am I not surprised FOX, which I do not pick up on my TV, is one of the only media outlets that seems to have covered this story?

[FennRx]

I understand all this' date=' but strictly speaking on design terms a G3 is an assault weapon. Assault rifle really. [/quote']

 

 

;) ](*,)

 

by design an assault rifle has to have selective fire ability in order to be an assault rifle.

 

just because a rifle shares the look, the caliber and the magazine of a true assault rifle doesnt make it one.

 

and for the record, the 5.56/Remington .223 and the 7.62 Soviet are weak rounds compared to several commercially available hunting rounds. The .223 is actually a varmint round. thats the right, the mighty M16 fires a bullet used to kill squirrels and gophers.

[FennRx]

[MorbidMockingbird]

Columbine was a few kids that were having a bad day, a very bad day, and they weren't sure how to handle it. "I wouldn't say a single word to them, I would listen to what they have to say and that's what no one did. "quoted from Marilyn Manson when asked what he would have said to the kids that did the shooting.

i do think there should be some control over guns, like a limit to how many and what kidn people are allowed to own. my father has too many. i have 3, i'm 17.maybe thats too young, but they're all used for hunting and target practice. somehow there should be some way to make sure gun owners keep the guns locked in a gun cabinet high and away from young children.

my guns aren't too big, the largest is a 308, that should be the largest gun available to public.

[mrktwn]

 

 

:- '](*,)

 

by design an assault rifle has to have selective fire ability in order to be an assault rifle.

 

just because a rifle shares the look, the caliber and the magazine of a true assault rifle doesnt make it one.

 

and for the record, the 5.56/Remington .223 and the 7.62 Soviet are weak rounds compared to several commercially available hunting rounds. The .223 is actually a varmint round. thats the right, the mighty M16 fires a bullet used to kill squirrels and gophers.

Isnt that somewhat "legalese"? That would be kind of like saying that a revolver is defined only as having double action. I understand that not everything thats chambered for those calibers is an assault rifle, but those intermediate rounds are a defining feature of assault rifles.

[TommyK]

I understand all this' date=' but strictly speaking on design terms a G3 is an assault weapon. Assault rifle really. [/quote']

 

This shows the anti's ignorance on the issue. With a few cosmetic changes an assault weapon is no longer an assault weapon.

[Gitfidl]

Thanks for the links Gitfidl. Why am I not surprised this is the first I've heard of Napolitano's gaffe? Why am I not surprised FOX' date=' which I do not pick up on my TV, is one of the only media outlets that seems to have covered this story?[/quote']

 

What is also very interesting about the groups **targeted** by Napolitano is that they are all conservative (Republican) sub public s. The liberal administration would be incensed (we know it from past experienced) if the New Jersey State Police were "profiling" blacks or if the Detroit PD or the Airport Security were "profiling " Moslems. But here we have the DIRECTOR of Homeland Security profiling Republican sub public s ONLY.

 

You will see NO REFERENCE at all to MS13 -- the most dangerous street gang ever which has cowered the FBI and the LAPD. They are considered "untouchable" by federal-state-local law enforcement and for good reason because MS13 leaders have called for and executed a "hit" of a Virginia police officer from a San Salvadoran prison! Yes! Documented fact.

 

You will see no reference AT ALL to Crips, Bloods, P-Stone Rangers, Vice Lords, F-Troop, Disciples, Mexican Mafia, Aryan Brotherhood, or the Italian Mafia. NONE. Zilch. They are not a even a risk of being a DHS problem? There is no reference made of FARC, pro-and-anti Castro militias, Puerto Rican Nationalist groups, Russian Mafia (a dangerous criminal organization), any drug cartels (several of them), or many Islamic cells from a variety of countries operating inside the US and with extreme capabilities. No mention of Al Quaeda in the US despite a history of arrests of shoe bombers, etc.

 

No mention of port security, shipping container security or risk, university based terrorists (Moslem and Unabomber types) (but McVeigh types yes -- veterans who have combat training). Ted Kazinski was a physicist who was capable to designing a hydrogen bomb! That type is not mentioned -- and yet many of them are Islamics hostile to the US.

 

There is not mention at all of Louis Farrakhan or Black Muslim (but there is clear reference to Christians and pro-life supporters).

 

Well point made: the Obama administration is targeting Republicans to be limited and even criminally profiled -- Christians, veterans, pro-lifers, anti-gay marriage speakers, gun owners (we whites cling to guns and religion too much and Obama has to STOP that). And this is the very first time in U.S. history that federal agencies are profiling people merely based on their opinions, their religion, their beliefs. No ACT has to be performed to be in the profiled group. No statement needs to be made. Merely BEING a pro-lifer, a Christian, a veteran or anti-gay makes you and enemy of the state.

 

AND more news: a Miss America contestant (a woman) was asked by an out spoken gay judge how she felt about gay-marriage. Her answer was "I believe marriage is between a man and a woman" and so the gay judge voted against her being in the beauty pageant saying "she should keep her politics out of the contest!" Yes! He introduced the politics -- asked a WOMAN what she thought about gay marriage IN A CONTEST ABOUT WOMANHOOD and then voted against HER because she believed what most women belived -- and SHE was the one being political -- and they upheld the gay judge!

 

So now Christian and straight are OUT and liberal constituencies are IN -- it is no longer politically correct to be a normal male or female (as well as Christian, loyal veteran, pro-life, etc.)

 

This is three months into the Obama regime and they see no opposition for 8 years. They feel like they own the White House the House and the Senate and Supreme Court -- so they can do ANYTHING THEY WANT. And T&HAT is what they want to do. They don't give a damn about AlQuaeda or Iraq or Taliban or the USS Cole or any of that.

 

They want to eliminate opposition to their way of thinking. And they are wasting no time getting to it. This is only the BEGINNING. When will "we" wake up. Perhaps when the re-open Manzanar.

[MReynolds]

 

Ya see.... Daddy was right. Figures don't lie' date=' but liars figure. The Big Three only tells us the 90% part. They gloss over the 'of the ones submitted. Bloody 'ell, if they culled out just 600 more of them we'd be at 100%.

 

Still, I see a problem with someone in this country exporting imported weaponry to a country whose military has, multiple times in the past, invaded our country.... Most recently, last fall.[/quote']

 

Yes but the ones coming from this country are the least of our worries...note:

 

---------------------------------------

So, if not from the U.S., where do they come from? There are a variety of sources:

 

-- The Black Market. Mexico is a virtual arms bazaar, with fragmentation grenades from South Korea, AK-47s from China, and shoulder-fired rocket launchers from Spain, Israel and former Soviet bloc manufacturers.

 

-- Russian crime organizations. Interpol says Russian Mafia groups such as Poldolskaya and Moscow-based Solntsevskaya are actively trafficking drugs and arms in Mexico.

 

- South America. During the late 1990s, the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) established a clandestine arms smuggling and drug trafficking partnership with the Tijuana cartel, according to the Federal Research Division report from the Library of Congress.

 

-- Asia. According to a 2006 Amnesty International Report, China has provided arms to countries in Asia, Africa and Latin America. Chinese assault weapons and Korean explosives have been recovered in Mexico.

 

-- The Mexican Army. More than 150,000 soldiers deserted in the last six years, according to Mexican Congressman Robert Badillo. Many took their weapons with them, including the standard issue M-16 assault rifle made in Belgium.

 

-- Guatemala. U.S. intelligence agencies say traffickers move immigrants, stolen cars, guns and drugs, including most of America's cocaine, along the porous Mexican-Guatemalan border. On March 27, La Hora, a Guatemalan newspaper, reported that police seized 500 grenades and a load of AK-47s on the border. Police say the cache was transported by a Mexican drug cartel operating out of Ixcan, a border town.

------------------------------------

 

Even more disturbing:

 

------------------------------------

Ed Head, a firearms instructor in Arizona who spent 24 years with the U.S. Border Patrol, recently displayed an array of weapons considered "assault rifles" that are similar to those recovered in Mexico, but are unavailable for sale in the U.S.

 

"These kinds of guns -- the auto versions of these guns -- they are not coming from El Paso," he said. "They are coming from other sources. They are brought in from Guatemala. They are brought in from places like China. They are being diverted from the military. But you don't get these guns from the U.S."

 

Some guns, he said, "are legitimately shipped to the government of Mexico, by Colt, for example, in the United States. They are approved by the U.S. government for use by the Mexican military service. The guns end up in Mexico that way -- the fully auto versions -- they are not smuggled in across the river."

 

Many of the fully automatic weapons that have been seized in Mexico cannot be found in the U.S., but they are not uncommon in the Third World.

 

The Mexican government said it has seized 2,239 grenades in the last two years -- but those grenades and the rocket-propelled grenades (RPGs) are unavailable in U.S. gun shops. The ones used in an attack on the U.S. Consulate in Monterrey in October and a TV station in January were made in South Korea. Almost 70 similar grenades were seized in February in the bottom of a truck entering Mexico from Guatemala.

 

"Most of these weapons are being smuggled from Central American countries or by sea, eluding U.S. and Mexican monitors who are focused on the smuggling of semi-automatic and conventional weapons purchased from dealers in the U.S. border states of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California," according to a report in the Los Angeles Times.

---------------------------------------------

So why would the Mexican drug cartels, which last year grossed between $17 billion and $38 billion, bother buying single-shot rifles, and force thousands of unknown "straw" buyers in the U.S. through a government background check, when they can buy boatloads of fully automatic M-16s and assault rifles from China, Israel or South Africa?

----------------------------------------------

 

If you want to read the full article it's at: The Myth of 90 Percent: Only a Small Fraction of Guns in Mexico Come From U.S.