Curious why a new J 45 sounded dead?

[PrairieDog]

I went into GC yesterday to try out the Standard J45 they had in stock (new). I have the Walnut Studio, and was curious what difference the mahogany would make.  I like a rich warm tone, and while my Studio has that, I figured from the descriptions I was reading the Standard would have it in spades.  

Trying out guitars the first time, when I picked up the Studio, in the little wood paneled, well-humidified, room they keep their higher end gear in, the Walnut Studio just sang, and was the first one home, even though I really had no clue  what I just bought.  

So here I was with the mahogany Standard, in the same little room, I was psyched as I hit that first G chord, ready to hear that “classic J 45 sound” and expecting to need to figure out how to justify bringing home one more guitar.  

Thunk.  Well, maybe not quite that bad, but the guitar just sounded, well, dead. It had no life, no ring, no zing, no warmth, no song. It was just blah, dull, dense.  (And, no, it wasn’t my technique, grin. The fretting was just fine.) It was well-tuned, and it didn’t matter strumming or finger picking.  Another guy, who knew what he was doing, tried it after hearing me play it, and was confused too.  He also said it had nothing.  

I’m interested in your all thoughts on what may have been wrong with it. I know this clunker could not be “standard” for the Standard, so I’m curious what could have been off or wrong just in case there was something I might have made adjustments/allowances for as I was trying it out.  

Thanks in advance to anyone who wants to toss an opinion. 

 

[Dave F]

My guess would be the strings or the guitar sat in some warehouse before it came to store and was over humidified. 
Just guessing based on previous experiences. 

[PrairieDog]

6 minutes ago, Dave F said:

My guess would be the strings or the guitar sat in some warehouse before it came to store and was over humidified. 
Just guessing based on previous experiences. 

Huh! That is interesting, I actually was wondering if it was “soggy..” I nearly described it that way, but thought it sounded  “silly.” Thanks!

Edited August 15, 2023 by PrairieDog

[Dave F]

I’ve had a few of those. Took about 5 months to dry them out. 

[E-minor7]

Hmmm, , , only 1 thing to do = Try 2 or 3 others.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    It's impossible to judge from just playing 1. Like it's impossible for me to fully get the picture without hearing your (perhaps) remarkably good walnut slope.

I have a Std. here and find it very strong - and as you might know the model was and probably still is a major hit. My 2010 btw. is totally different from my pal's, which either is a Modern Classic og Historic Collection from cirka 2004. 
 

You may find this film entertaining >

Just saw in an old thread his 45 is a H C.

[Sgt. Pepper]

Strings or maybe it was just a lifeless one. Every time I go into CG to play an acoustic, I feel like I need a tetanus shot after leaving. Plus walnut is not mahogany.

Edited August 15, 2023 by Sgt. Pepper

[PrairieDog]

2 hours ago, E-minor7 said:

Hmmm, , , only 1 thing to do = Try 2 or 3 others.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    It's impossible to judge from just playing 1. Like it's impossible for me to fully get the picture without hearing your (perhaps) remarkably good walnut slope.

I have a Std. here and find it very strong - and as you might know the model was and probably still is a major hit. My 2010 btw. is totally different from my pal's, which either is a Modern Classic og Historic Collection from cirka 2004. 
 

You may find this film entertaining >

Just saw in an old thread his 45 is a H C.

Nod, thanks for this.  Actually it was some of your comments, and finally parsing out what the different models/tone woods mean, and watching a bunch of j 45 demos, that set me on the Standard quest.  I was thinking maybe I bit too soon on the Studio.

Interesting thing about the videos, although I didn’t see this one (looking forward to being someplace I can watch it) even though I knew it should be there, I couldn’t really discern much difference. That is why I wanted to try it in person.  Unfortunately, my GC only had the one in the display case to try.  

Going home and picking up the toys I do have to compare, I’m fearing I should just be content and thankful  I lucked out stumbling into my Studio and DIF.  

Another factor I’m considering is, my poor “It’s cool to be front row” ‘70s arena-rock-battered ears long ago lost a range of frequencies younger ones can pick up (PSA: use those earplugs, kiddies!)

Maybe that’s why things like the Studio, which folks say sound brighter than the Standard, sound mellow and balanced to me and other high-end makes, known for warmer/darker tones, like the Standard, or say Martins, just sound muddy? And Taylor’s, save for the one GT Urban Ash my better half found, are just fingernails on a blackboard, lol.  

Okay, I admit I’m in that drooling, acquisitive, newbie stage right now. I  figured half the fun of picking up guitar again, now that I have some free pocket change, would be collecting just for variety out there. But maybe the universe is telling me I’m all set and just be thankful for favors already granted, and maybe focus on re-learning how to play the darn things, chuckle. 

 

 

Edited August 15, 2023 by PrairieDog

[fortyearspickn]

Sometimes Bozeman will put a pair of damp socks in a J45 to humidify it and forget to remove them in QC before they ship it.     Other than that,  there are too many other  possibilities including new strings of a different type on your Studio - which is a different guitar model,  and as Sgt Pepper indicated, crusty, rusty, moldy strings on a ... whatever a 'lifeless' one is.   I assume you played other guitars in the high end room and they all sounded fine -  to you and the other guy?    If so - I'm going with Damp Socks.   Hopefully fresh from the washing machine and not the gym. 

[Larsongs]

50 minutes ago, Sgt. Pepper said:

Strings or maybe it was just a lifeless one. Every time I go into CG to play an acoustic, I feel like I need a tetanus shot after leaving. Plus walnut is not mahogany.

If your used to walnut which is bright sounding a mahogany J-45 won’t be that.. No 2 Acoustic Guitars are the same.. Old Strings can sound dull.. Try a few more.. But, no matter how many you play they won’t sound like walnut.. Or Rosewood which is another option that has a sound somewhere between mahogany and walnut.. You might find one of those more to your liking..

[zombywoof]

Generally, it does take any guitar a bit to shake off the cobwebs.  And you have to remain aware that Bozeman uses two different bracing footprints which will impact sound and response.  But any factory produced guitar is capable of being sent out the door with a dead top.  I do not care whether it is Gibson, Martin, or whomever,   

A way to get around evaluating a guitar with say lifeless strings or has been sitting on the shelf for any length of time.  is to give it the thumb whack test.  A slight whack with the side of your thumb on the top around the bridge area and on the rim should send vibrations traveling through your body and produce some sound from the sympathetic vibration of the strings.  How much you feel and hear is at least an indicator of how lively the top is.  The again I could well be on puppy chow.

Edited August 15, 2023 by zombywoof

[Sgt. Pepper]

1 hour ago, zombywoof said:

A way to get around evaluating a guitar with say lifeless strings or has been sitting on the shelf for any length of time.  is to give it the thumb whack test.  

When I get home from work I am giving my guitars the Zombywoof Thumb Whack Test. That could be a Zappa song.

[PrairieDog]

2 hours ago, fortyearspickn said:

Sometimes Bozeman will put a pair of damp socks in a J45 to humidify it and forget to remove them in QC before they ship it.     Other than that,  there are too many other  possibilities including new strings of a different type on your Studio - which is a different guitar model,  and as Sgt Pepper indicated, crusty, rusty, moldy strings on a ... whatever a 'lifeless' one is.   I assume you played other guitars in the high end room and they all sounded fine -  to you and the other guy?    If so - I'm going with Damp Socks.   Hopefully fresh from the washing machine and not the gym. 

Chuckle.  Let’s go with the wet sock idea.  Just to clarify, since Pepper and folks may have missed it, this was a brand new guitar, and had just come into the store in the last month or so, since they didn’t have any when I got the new Studio.  I wish I could have compared the two back then.  

Not too many of the clientele at this GC are likely to be noodling about on the high-end acoustic display-case guitars.  We can tell by the trouble the kids have figuring out which keys unlock it, compared to the vintage Les Pauls and Strats, chuckle.  So most are pretty pristine when they come out.  We did play some other makes, including a pretty Martin the “fellow who knew what he was doing” was having fun with.  Even though we went out with the expectation we might come home with something, nothing floated us.

Now I’m wondering if the specially constructed room, obviously designed to “juice the sound of the guitars” was itself over humidified?  It’s been really stormy here, after a long drought, and I wonder if they weren’t adjusting the humidifier to account for that.  Thinking back it seemed pretty sauna-like, even in the main acoustic room.  I always hated singing in high humidity because it felt like all the notes were just landing at my feet, no matter how much I projected.  

[PrairieDog]

34 minutes ago, Sgt. Pepper said:

When I get home from work I am giving my guitars the Zombywoof Thumb Whack Test. That could be a Zappa song.

Me too!

[PrairieDog]

1 hour ago, zombywoof said:

Generally, it does take any guitar a bit to shake off the cobwebs.  And you have to remain aware that Bozeman uses two different bracing footprints which will impact sound and response.  But any factory produced guitar is capable of being sent out the door with a dead top.  I do not care whether it is Gibson, Martin, or whomever,   

A way to get around evaluating a guitar with say lifeless strings or has been sitting on the shelf for any length of time.  is to give it the thumb whack test.  A slight whack with the side of your thumb on the top around the bridge area and on the rim should send vibrations traveling through your body and produce some sound from the sympathetic vibration of the strings.  How much you feel and hear is at least an indicator of how lively the top is.  The again I could well be on puppy chow.

Ha ha! I’ve now added thumbwhacking to my standard testing protocol.  Grin.  Seriously, no puppy chow, it makes perfect sense.  I have to go pick up some stands coming in, I’ll ask to see it again and try this.  

[PrairieDog]

2 hours ago, Larsongs said:

If your used to walnut which is bright sounding a mahogany J-45 won’t be that.. No 2 Acoustic Guitars are the same.. Old Strings can sound dull.. Try a few more.. But, no matter how many you play they won’t sound like walnut.. Or Rosewood which is another option that has a sound somewhere between mahogany and walnut.. You might find one of those more to your liking..

Yeah, I wanted to try it because I assumed it wouldn’t sound like my walnut, or my maple DIF.  I love them both, it’s not that I’m looking to replace either, I just was intrigued by the idea of a darker, richer tone in a  mahogany guitar.  

Per my earlier comment, (and the other guy also thinking this Standard was off aside,) I am wondering if just is an issue with my old ears, since to me the Studio sounds full and well balanced and not overly bright (which is the quality I loathe in Taylor’s, lol.). The DIF has amazing tone coming out the tuning pegs, but still not a dark sound either.  

I really appreciate your, and everyone’s input since as I mentioned, I’ve no real clue what I’m doing, except for what I learn here, and on the internet. I know just enough to know I don’t know anything, grin.  

[zombywoof]

2 hours ago, Sgt. Pepper said:

When I get home from work I am giving my guitars the Zombywoof Thumb Whack Test. That could be a Zappa song.

Frank would probably tell me to shut up and play my guitar.  But I cannot take credit for this "discovery".  I picked it up from a folkie in the 1970s.    

[Sgt. Pepper]

15 minutes ago, zombywoof said:

Frank would probably tell me to shut up and play my guitar.  But I cannot take credit for this "discovery".  I picked it up from a folkie in the 1970s.    

Or to watch out where the Huskies go. I may have to try it with a pair of Zircon Encrusted Tweezers in my hand.

Them Folkies.

Edited August 15, 2023 by Sgt. Pepper

[philfish]

I've been thumb whacking for years, learned it from an old friend years ago.

I do it on the bridge, a good guitar will sing to you. Also lets you know if there are lose braces 

 I have seen Bryan Sutton  do it

[62burst]

18 hours ago, Dave F said:

I’ve had a few of those. Took about 5 months to dry them out. 

Much safer than 5 hours in a room heated with a wood stove.

Guitar Center is known for a very gracious (and tempting) return policy, but they're also known for guitars on the rack with some pretty nasty strings. 'Was in one where the hygrometer on the humidifier read somewhere in the upper 60's. It was very stuffy in the small high end room. If that was the case for you, I suppose the other guitars would also be suffering the same fate (?).

[Sgt. Pepper]

7 minutes ago, 62burst said:

Much safer than 5 hours in a room heated with a wood stove.

Guitar Center is known for a very gracious (and tempting) return policy, but they're also known for guitars on the rack with some pretty nasty strings. 'Was in one where the hygrometer on the humidifier read somewhere in the upper 60's. It was very stuffy in the small high end room. If that was the case for you, I suppose the other guitars would also be suffering the same fate (?).

The only thing I buy from GC is strings. And more often than not I mail order them.

[Larsongs]

There is only one GC I like going to in So Cal.. Hollywood GC.. Man, that is a Candy Store!!! The rest I don’t bother to go to anymore as they’ve gotten so bad..

I order my Strings & Picks online in bulk when there’s a sale..

[E-minor7]

10 hours ago, PrairieDog said:

Going home and picking up the toys I do have to compare, I’m fearing I should just be content and thankful  I lucked out stumbling into my Studio and DIF.  

Another factor I’m considering is, my poor “It’s cool to be front row” ‘70s arena-rock-battered ears long ago lost a range of frequencies younger ones can pick up (PSA: use those earplugs, kiddies!)

Maybe that’s why things like the Studio, which folks say sound brighter than the Standard, sound mellow and balanced to me and other high-end makes, known for warmer/darker tones, like the Standard, or say Martins, just sound muddy? And Taylor’s, save for the one GT Urban Ash my better half found, are just fingernails on a blackboard, lol.  

Well, my Standard can sound slightly muddy, kind of dull, with faded steel and I wonder if it could be related to extra-responsive bass-rich braces on this ex.

Not here though (to these ears anyway) - a recording from last December with 6 months old J. Pearse PB. Lights > 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               That DIF is a bright'n'clear animal isn't it. . 

[philfish]

E=minor 

I listened to your version of Junk many times when you posted it in the Acoustical Performances 

Good to hear it again  Bravo!  

[PrairieDog]

3 hours ago, E-minor7 said:

Well, my Standard can sound slightly muddy, kind of dull, with faded steel and I wonder if it could be related to extra-responsive bass-rich braces on this ex.

Not here though (to these ears anyway) - a recording from last December with 6 months old J. Pearse PB. Lights > 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               That DIF is a bright'n'clear animal isn't it. . 

That was wonderful!! that’s you? I loved it! And yes, i’m giddy over my DIF.  I have to remind myself not to compare potential adoptees to it.  

Edited August 16, 2023 by PrairieDog

[Pimouss]

I've found some j45 better than others but never heard a "dead" sounding one. 

Some say that the almighty j45 is a quest of life, I'd say mine would be the dead one... 

Luthier and/or strings are the way to go generally. If it doesn't work, guitar sound is subjective so try another. That one that was judged as a "dog" by someone else and you may find fantastic 🙂