BluesKing777 Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 6 hours ago, Murph said: Freakin' nit-pickers..... Is it a multi purpose tool you talk about or just that same ole tool? That Tool? The one like the Everready Bunny? What was the first question? BluesKing777. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murph Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 14 hours ago, BluesKing777 said: Is it a multi purpose tool you talk about or just that same ole tool? That Tool? Yea, Not this one. I got the Arc for Christmas and the bit kits/extension for my birthday. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 (edited) 1 hour ago, Murph said: Yea, Not this one. I got the Arc for Christmas and the bit kits/extension for my birthday. Now we talkn’ Nice.... Um, my latest tool buy from a hardware shop is pretty weird. It is an airpump for pushbike, car, inflatables, motor bikes......with digital setting capability - the strange thing is it has to be plugged in to my laptop USB to charge......regularly. The blurb says to leave it, perhaps, in the drink holder area of the bike. But do I need to take my laptop on my bike? My car has a USB charger point, never used it, but bike..nope. Anyway, long story short, I hurt both knees on said bike going over a dirt mound and had to lay off the bike for a while. So...2 pushbikes, cobwebs, flats! Dead flat! Pumped them all with the Tragbare Luftpumpe in minutes! Success, tool success! Anyhow, back to luxury brands and it occurred to me that people call BMW and Mercedes luxury brands. Is Gibson reaching those giddy heights? BluesKing777. Edited February 15 by BluesKing777 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Pepper Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 (edited) What about a portable USB battery? Why does it HAVE to charge from a laptop? Edited February 15 by Sgt. Pepper 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrairieDog Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 I’ve been watching this thread play out cause it’s a neat discussion and trying to avoid being pedantic, but here goes. I gotta at least share the actual definition a “luxury” is anything that is not essential to one’s survival, but “nice to have.” As some have pointed out, there is a scale of affordability involved in what is considered a luxury. But generally, a luxury “brand” is one that only people with hefty amounts of disposable income are able to afford to and actively buy, and usually to signal elite status to others. Since hordes of ambitious and dedicated teenagers with a part-time jobs can save up enough to buy a starter Gibson, I would say, no, it is not a luxury brand. But their line certainly includes ‘luxury’ models, that only a few are going to drop the change on, and yeah, that purchase probably involves more than just something to make music on. But I think that says more about the player, and only tangentially Gibson’s willingness to cater to them because they are able to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Pepper Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 (edited) 13 minutes ago, PrairieDog said: I’ve been watching this thread play out cause it’s a neat discussion and trying to avoid being pedantic, but here goes. I gotta at least share the actual definition a “luxury” is anything that is not essential to one’s survival, but “nice to have.” As some have pointed out, there is a scale of affordability involved in what is considered a luxury. But generally, a luxury “brand” is one that only people with hefty amounts of disposable income are able to afford to and actively buy, and usually to signal elite status to others. Since hordes of ambitious and dedicated teenagers with a part-time jobs can save up enough to buy a starter Gibson, I would say, no, it is not a luxury brand. But their line certainly includes ‘luxury’ models, that only a few are going to drop the change on, and yeah, that purchase probably involves more than just something to make music on. But I think that says more about the player, and only tangentially Gibson’s willingness to cater to them because they are able to. If this is the definition YOU are going by: I gotta at least share the actual definition a “luxury” is anything that is not essential to one’s survival, but “nice to have.” How is a guitar essential for survival? And by the definition you posted it certainly is a luxury to many. The only people that truly need guitars are people who make a living using one. Most of us here are bedroom rock stars, including myself. Edited February 15 by Sgt. Pepper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluesKing777 Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 29 minutes ago, Sgt. Pepper said: What about a portable USB battery? Why does it HAVE to charge from a laptop? Thanks, good idea but I was joking around, don’t want to take anything much, or ole fat guy won’t get up the hill with too much stuff! Memory of the time my car was getting repaired and I took the girl bike with luggage rack, carrier and bought too much shopping and course, got punctures, dead flat and had to roll it. Everyone looked at the crazy guy but nobody stopped to help..... BluesKing777. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrairieDog Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Sgt. Pepper said: If this is the definition YOU are going by: I gotta at least share the actual definition a “luxury” is anything that is not essential to one’s survival, but “nice to have.” How is a guitar essential for survival? And by the definition you posted it certainly is a luxury to many. The only people that truly need guitars are people who make a living using one. Most of us here are bedroom rock stars, including myself. If you want to make “guitar” music you need to own a guitar. So in that sense it is a necessity. But to the larger, non guitar playing public that need is absent, and they may consider owning one a luxury. So again, scale/perspective plays here. But the average anyone with money to choose one thing over another can buy a Gibson “brand” guitar if they want to. It may take more “saving up” than a Harmony, or Mitchell, but some model of Gibson is within the reach of most people who have jobs, and some amount of discretionary income. So by that definition it is not a “luxury” in the sense of “signaling” rare or elite status. You don’t see mid-level managers driving low-end Ferraris. Luxury “brands” are ones who preserve the image they are out of reach of most common people. What Gibson builds well with a multi-tier model system is brand “loyalty.” By building good guitars at an attainable price they can catch the kids who are choosing between the major companies. And chances are those kids will keep trading up as they are able. There is a whiff of elite status wafting around by having those golden apples at the top of the tree and so giving a sense of being “in the circle.” Edited February 15 by PrairieDog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Pepper Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 1 minute ago, PrairieDog said: If you want to make “guitar” music you need to own a guitar. So in that sense it is a necessity. But to the larger, non guitar playing public that need is absent, and they may consider owning one a luxury. So again, scale/perspective plays here. But because the average anyone with money to choose one thing over another can buy a Gibson “brand” guitar if they want to. It may take more “saving up’ than a Harmony, or Mitchell, but some model of Gibson is within the reach of most people who have jobs, and some amount of discretionary income. So by that definition it is not a “luxury” in the sense of “signaling” rare or elite status. You don’t see mid-level managers driving low-end Ferraris. Luxury “brands” are ones who preserve the image they are out of reach of most common people. What Gibson builds well with a multi-tier model system is brand “loyalty.” Buy building good guitars at an attainable price, If they can catch the kids who are choosing between the major companies, chances are they will keep trading up as they are able, and having those golden apples at the top of the tree, gives a sense of being “in the circle.” But if you are not a gigging musician you do not NEED a guitar, and it is not essential to your survival. you just WANT it. Yes of course if you are going to make music for fun you need some sort of instrument unless you are the vocalist. I think the key words in the definition is "essential for survival". Now lets take the CAR. Do we need cars. Of course. Most in the USA drive to work. But do you need a Ferrari to get to work, or will a Honda Civic get you there all the same? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrairieDog Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 1 minute ago, Sgt. Pepper said: But if you are not a gigging musician you do not NEED a guitar, and it is not essential to your survival. you just WANT it. Yes of course if you are going to make music for fun you need some sort of instrument unless you are the vocalist. I think the key words in the definition is "essential for survival". Now lets take the CAR. Do we need cars. Of course. Most in the USA drive to work. But do you need a Ferrari to get to work, or will a Honda Civic get you there all the same? So, you get my point? The top of the line Honda costs more than an entry level Mercedes, but you are using it as an example of a non-luxury brand. That’s all I’m saying with Gibson. There is a difference between affordability/expense and “luxury”. If you can’t buy one, yeah, you are going to think they are a luxury. But by pure market analysis, Gibson is still a mainstream brand, with luxury lines. Oh, and talk to folks in NYC, biggest city in the western world, and most do not own cars. A parking space in NY is a luxury, chuckle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Pepper Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 (edited) I don't see guitars mentioned or cars. What are the 5 survival needs for humans? According to psychologist Abraham Maslow, human beings' physiological needs for food, water, clothing, shelter, and sleep must be satisfied in order for them to address more complex needs like mental and physical health, relationships, sobriety, long-term housing, and employment. Edited February 15 by Sgt. Pepper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsongs Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 Gibson = Yes, it’s a Luxury Brand.. Epiphone = No, it’s not a Luxury Brand.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrairieDog Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 29 minutes ago, Larsongs said: Gibson = Yes, it’s a Luxury Brand.. Epiphone = No, it’s not a Luxury Brand.. If an acne ridden bagger at Piggly Wiggly can buy a Gibson, the BRAND does not by any measure meet the real economic definition of a luxury item. If nothing else, you don’t pay luxury tax when you buy one. It feels like the whole convo is just attempting to rationalize “they got too expensive for ME, and I wanted one, so it must now be a horrible, elitist, luxury brand.” Something that costs more than one single individual can afford does not automatically convey elite or luxury status. Luxury has an actual measure of cost, rarity and the power/desire to signal elite status to other members of a society, and having the access/opportunity to purchase said item. There are true luxury items that are out of reach for even the Uber-weathy because there are only X number of them available. Again, to a starving penniless man, a hot dog is gonna be a luxury. A Ferrari is gonna be one to most of us commuter drone drivers. A Gibson is a very nice guitar, with a cost that reflects that. But anyone can buy some version of one if they have a few bucks to save up. No one has to unlock the door to the boutique to let you in to browse or ask to see your platinum card before they take the item out of the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Pepper Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 (edited) 12 minutes ago, PrairieDog said: If an acne ridden bagger at Piggly Wiggly can buy a Gibson, the BRAND does not by any measure meet the real economic definition of a luxury item. If nothing else, you don’t pay luxury tax when you buy one. Almost anyone can afford one if you save long enough. Even what is seen as an affordable brand like Epi, but no guitar is necessary for survival. That is the blurb of the definition YOU posted, is it not? You can't wear it, eat it or drink it, make shelter with it, it does not make you sleep better. It is a tool for a working musician. If your not one you don't NEED it. Hence a LUXURY. Edited February 15 by Sgt. Pepper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrairieDog Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 2 minutes ago, Sgt. Pepper said: Almost anyone can afford one if you save long enough. Even what is seen as an affordable brand like Epi, but it is still not necessary for survival. That is the blurb of the definition YOU posted, is it not? Yes, and you seem kinda stuck on that sentence, and not bothering with all the words that followed. I’m not arguing I said that. That was the jumping off point for my comment. Obviously, the world would spin on if there were no guitars. But the original question was about whether GIBSON as a BRAND is a luxury. And just no, it is just not. Not by any actual, established meaning of the word. I’ve grown tired of spinning my wheels. It’s clear where you are rooted, and I’ve said my bit. Laying down my keyboard and getting back to work so I can earn money to buy another run of the mill Gibson. Maybe someday I’ll be able to special order a handmade, “luxury” Preston Thompson for 5 figures. Carry on as you were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Pepper Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 (edited) 49 minutes ago, PrairieDog said: Yes, and you seem kinda stuck on that sentence, and not bothering with all the words that followed. I’m not arguing I said that. That was the jumping off point for my comment. Obviously, the world would spin on if there were no guitars. But the original question was about whether GIBSON as a BRAND is a luxury. And just no, it is just not. Not by any actual, established meaning of the word. I’ve grown tired of spinning my wheels. It’s clear where you are rooted, and I’ve said my bit. Laying down my keyboard and getting back to work so I can earn money to buy another run of the mill Gibson. Maybe someday I’ll be able to special order a handmade, “luxury” Preston Thompson for 5 figures. Carry on as you were. I wonder if Gibson or Martin have 5 figure guitars for sale? Just looked yep they do. https://www.gibson.com/en-US/Electric-Guitar/CUSWKV101/Lemon-Burst https://www.martinguitar.com/guitars/D-42-Special.html?cgid=guitars A Preston Thompson is one of the most amazing guitars I ever played. Edited February 15 by Sgt. Pepper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsongs Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 1 hour ago, PrairieDog said: If an acne ridden bagger at Piggly Wiggly can buy a Gibson, the BRAND does not by any measure meet the real economic definition of a luxury item. If nothing else, you don’t pay luxury tax when you buy one. It feels like the whole convo is just attempting to rationalize “they got too expensive for ME, and I wanted one, so it must now be a horrible, elitist, luxury brand.” Something that costs more than one single individual can afford does not automatically convey elite or luxury status. Luxury has an actual measure of cost, rarity and the power/desire to signal elite status to other members of a society, and having the access/opportunity to purchase said item. There are true luxury items that are out of reach for even the Uber-weathy because there are only X number of them available. Again, to a starving penniless man, a hot dog is gonna be a luxury. A Ferrari is gonna be one to most of us commuter drone drivers. A Gibson is a very nice guitar, with a cost that reflects that. But anyone can buy some version of one if they have a few bucks to save up. No one has to unlock the door to the boutique to let you in to browse or ask to see your platinum card before they take the item out of the case. Not the point at all IMO.. You can make great music on an inexpensive Epiphone. You don’t need a Gibson to make great music.. You can spend $400-$500 on a budget Epi Dot & sound great.. You don’t need a $4000-$10,000 Gibson SS-335.. IMO opinion spending $4000-$10,000 for a Guitar makes it a non essential Luxury item… Gibson, Gretsch, Guild & many other Companies prices are through the roof!!! I don’t know any acne faced baggers from Piggly Wiggly who has a $4000-$10000 Gibson… Most kids I know with $4000-$10000 Guitars had a little help from Mom & Dad….. Or Mom & Dad paid for it altogether.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Pepper Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 19 minutes ago, Larsongs said: Not the point at all IMO.. You can make great music on an inexpensive Epiphone. You don’t need a Gibson to make great music.. You can spend $400-$500 on a budget Epi Dot & sound great.. You don’t need a $4000-$10,000 Gibson SS-335.. IMO opinion spending $4000-$10,000 for a Guitar makes it a non essential Luxury item… Gibson, Gretsch, Guild & many other Companies prices are through the roof!!! I don’t know any acne faced baggers from Piggly Wiggly who has a $4000-$10000 Gibson… Most kids I know with $4000-$10000 Guitars had a little help from Mom & Dad….. Or Mom & Dad paid for it altogether.. Why couldn't I have an unlimited trust fund. Now I hate my parents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil OKeefe Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 On 2/13/2024 at 9:50 AM, Sgt. Pepper said: Stop believing your Gibson is carved by Cherubs that came down from Heaven. Every maker uses CNC machines, even G I B S O N. None of the big 6 (Fender, Martin, Gibson, Guild, Taylor, Gretsch or the others) are made by H A N D. Some is, but 100% is not. We aren't secretive about how Gibson guitars are made. If anyone wants to see the process, we have a Gibson TV show called The Process that shows exactly how they're made. Yes, it shows where machines are utilized, as well as what is done by hand. This season, they've focusing on Montana and acoustic models, but the previous season covered electric guitars. https://www.gibson.com/en-US/GibsonTV/the-process/how-we-scrape-binding-and-antique-your-gibson-acoustic-guitars-or-the Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Pepper Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Phil OKeefe said: We aren't secretive about how Gibson guitars are made. If anyone wants to see the process, we have a Gibson TV show called The Process that shows exactly how they're made. Yes, it shows where machines are utilized, as well as what is done by hand. This season, they've focusing on Montana and acoustic models, but the previous season covered electric guitars. https://www.gibson.com/en-US/GibsonTV/the-process/how-we-scrape-binding-and-antique-your-gibson-acoustic-guitars-or-the I never said Gibson was secretive, but here must be a blurb in Gibson's Advertising that states HANDMADE, and Bingo people believe it. You actually think a guy or girl or cat stood there with a jig or band saw and cut LP bodies out freehand? Or does someone get a big chunk of wood and lay it down in the CNC machine, and then press a button and the machine does the work. Is the Plek Machine an automatic machine once the guitar is in it and a button is pressed? I don't believe it but the acne faced kid at Piggy Wiggly sure does. Lots here do as well. That has got to be a blast for 8 to 12 hours a day. Yes the over spray on the binding is scraped by hand. Wow. Edited February 15 by Sgt. Pepper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil OKeefe Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 Disclaimer - this is my personal opinion here - I'm not speaking as a Gibson employee: I think Gibson is a premium American-built brand. Yes, Gibson sells some seriously high-end guitars and other products that many would consider "luxury items," but I've personally never paid five figures for any guitar, although I have a few that are in that price range because they have appreciated in value over many years. While I consider Gibson a premium brand, they're not exclusively a luxury brand IMO. My first Gibson was a The Paul Firebrand that I purchased as a teenager for under a thousand dollars from the music store I worked at back then. Gibson still sells several models that, adjusted for inflation, are just as affordable, if not more so. ($1,000 in 1980 would be $3,742 today, per this inflation calculator.) I've got my eye on something that is roughly similar to that The Paul Firebrand - in fact, I personally think it's a better guitar - the new Les Paul Modern Lite in the Gibson exclusive TV Pelham Blue finish that we just released today... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil OKeefe Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 1 minute ago, Sgt. Pepper said: You actually think a guy or girl or cat stood there with a jig or band saw and cut LP bodies out freehand? Or does someone get a big chunk of wood and lay it down in the CNC machine, and then press a button and the machine does the work. Is the Plek Machine an automatic machine once the guitar is in it and a button is pressed? I don't believe it but the acne faced kid at Piggy Wiggly sure does. Lots here do as well. That has got to be a blast for 8 to 12 hours a day. Yes the over spray on the binding is scraped by hand. Wow. Please watch the shows - they're broken down by specific parts of the builds, so you can see whatever part(s) you're interested in. They should answer all of your questions. In addition to binding scraping, there's a lot more "by hand" work that goes into them than you might realize. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Pepper Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 1 minute ago, Phil OKeefe said: Disclaimer - this is my personal opinion here - I'm not speaking as a Gibson employee: I think Gibson is a premium American-built brand. Yes, Gibson sells some seriously high-end guitars and other products that many would consider "luxury items," but I've personally never paid five figures for any guitar, although I have a few that are in that price range because they have appreciated in value over many years. While I consider Gibson a premium brand, they're not exclusively a luxury brand IMO. My first Gibson was a The Paul Firebrand that I purchased as a teenager for under a thousand dollars from the music store I worked at back then. Gibson still sells several models that, adjusted for inflation, are just as affordable, if not more so. ($1,000 in 1980 would be $3,742 today, per this inflation calculator.) I've got my eye on something that is roughly similar to that The Paul Firebrand - in fact, I personally think it's a better guitar - the new Les Paul Modern Lite in the Gibson exclusive TV Pelham Blue finish that we just released today... Okay so as an Mod how deep are you in the Kool-Aid. Are you a Gibson employee, or you just got picked to be a Mod cause you have connections? Basically does Cesar stoke a check you way with Gibson as the Payer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsongs Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 I don’t think anyone is arguing that Gibson doesn’t make Premium Luxury Guitars.. They do.. To nit pick the difference between Premium & Luxury is subjective.. IMO both mean the same thing… Gibsons entry point for a gloss J-45 is $3000.00… Not cheap.. Many would consider it Premium Luxury.. A comparable Epiphone is about $500.00.. Working man’s price.. I don’t think considering inflation makes any difference when you’re pulling your hard earned Cash out of your pocket.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Pepper Posted February 15 Share Posted February 15 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Phil OKeefe said: Please watch the shows - they're broken down by specific parts of the builds, so you can see whatever part(s) you're interested in. They should answer all of your questions. In addition to binding scraping, there's a lot more "by hand" work that goes into them than you might realize. I have watched the scraping vids, the ones with The Brand Experience Guy, I can see his smug face, and forgot his name. Vids showing happy employees in the plant working away. Seen lots. Now here is my disclaimer - if the entire guitar is not made by a guy or a girl with a tool in there hand its not hand made. Popping something in a machine and letting it do the work - once again not handmade IMHO. I make exceptions for the tuners, plastic bits, wire, switch, and electronics as I know they are not Gibson made. I think Gibson winds their own pups. Edited February 15 by Sgt. Pepper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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