Have you ever bought a Gibson guitar with legit factory 3/64th's treble side action and no deadness or fretting out on (past 12th fret) bends?

[rpavich]

I've been vexed by this for years..I read that the specs for Gibsons with the 12" radius necks for action is 3/64" for the treble side and 5/64th for the bass side. I've had many many many Gibsons of all types through the years...new and used. I've had them set up professionally and done my own sometimes....but I've NEVER legitimately had 3/64ths" treble side action WHILE achieving NO fretting out or fretting out on big bends above the 12th fret or just plain "that high E doesn't sound as clean as the rest of the strings..." sort of thing....
I just got a 2001 SG 76 Reissue which has really nice action and plays well..but when the action gets below 4/64 there is no way to keep it from either rattling or fretting out on those high bends.

I also recently got a Les Paul JR 2023 model..it has FANTASTIC action right out of the box...3/64 treble side legit....but...it's prone to not very clean notes on the high E and when bending above the 12th fret (high E) it will fret out or get a bit muted or at the very least the high E isn't as "clean" as the rest of the notes...

What is your experience with this?

I ask because I just happened to see a video where a guy had a brand new tribute les paul right from the factory and he decided to send it to his luthier to evaluate the factory set up...and lo and behold...the treble side action was 4/64....right from the assembly line....some QA guy signed off on it but in reality...it didn't meet spec...

[merciful-evans]

Hi,

I've never measured action on a setup. I did try a couple of times. I just cannot do it accurately enough. 

I always set up my guitars though and always get a low action with no fret out issues. If I cant achieve this, its because of an issue with the guitar. A very small twist can result in a less than ideal setup.

Probably your guitar (s) are fine. So I'm wondering if the relief is correct? If you eyeball this looking down the neck, the relief on the treble side should ideally be just perceptible and the wound side a bit more (this does vary between guitars though). It should never be the other way around though.  

[rpavich]

9 minutes ago, merciful-evans said:

Hi,

I've never measured action on a setup. I did try a couple of times. I just cannot do it accurately enough. 

I always set up my guitars though and always get a low action with no fret out issues. If I cant achieve this, its because of an issue with the guitar. A very small twist can result in a less than ideal setup.

Probably your guitar (s) are fine. So I'm wondering if the relief is correct? If you eyeball this looking down the neck, the relief on the treble side should ideally be just perceptible and the wound side a bit more (this does vary between guitars though). It should never be the other way around though.  

I'm not saying anything is incorrect at all...my guitars play and feel great! However...that's not the same as "my guitar as 3/64th's of an inch action on the treble side without fretting out.

Those two statements aren't equal.

I'm not complaining that my guitars aren't made well or aren't set up well...I hope I was clear on that.

NOTE: the official published gibson specs are:

(Not capo'd)
3/64th action treble side
5/64th action bass side.

Neck relief: .005 - 010 capo'd at 1st fret and held down at about 15th fret.

My neck relief is in spec...I shoot for .005" and my bass side is 5/64ths'...easily achieved. The "never have achieved without compromise" part is the treble action. Usually they end up between 3.5/64ths up to 4/64ths if I want them to play clean.

Edited March 13 by rpavich

[merciful-evans]

No I didn't think you were complaining. As I dont/cant measure my action I cant solve the issue you outlined. I think maybe RCT might be able to. If I recall correctly, he sets up to specs. 

I just made a suggestion that might have made a difference. There again, it might not!

Good luck.

Calling RCT... !

[rpavich]

1 minute ago, merciful-evans said:

No I didn't think you were complaining. As I dont/cant measure my action I cant solve the issue you outlined. I think maybe RCT might be able to. If I recall correctly, he sets up to specs. 

I just made a suggestion that might have made a difference. There again, it might not!

Good luck.

Calling RCT... !

I don't think that there is anything to "solve"...I'm just observing that the 3/64ths is a pipe dream....I've had hundreds of guitars in my lifetime and dozens of Gibsons...and not one has ever achieved that nirvana...I was just wondering about other's experiences...that's all.

I guess the only thing to solve is to find that pink unicorn...the guitar that meets their published specs! 🙂

[rct]

Where are you measuring the 3 or 4 64ths? 

rct

[Dave F]

I have a few set up at those specs. I usually adjust to a .000"-.005" neck relief. Two other factors I pay attention to are nut slot depth measuring the string height at the 1st fret and secondly I check for any high frets. One common problem I see in the modern Gibson acoustic guitars is after a truss rod tweak, area around the third fret rises and I have to address that. It's beyond my pay scale to figure that one out, but it's happened more than a few times. I currently have one (J160E) I have to address. As always, I tap down the fret and recheck before leveling it out.  

Good luck!

[rpavich]

38 minutes ago, rct said:

Where are you measuring the 3 or 4 64ths? 

rct

At the 12th fret, bottom of string to top of fret

[rpavich]

6 minutes ago, Dave F said:

I have a few set up at those specs. I usually adjust to a .000"-.005" neck relief. Two other factors I pay attention to are nut slot depth measuring the string height at the 1st fret and secondly I check for any high frets. One common problem I see in the modern Gibson acoustic guitars is after a truss rod tweak, area around the third fret rises and I have to address that. It's beyond my pay scale to figure that one out, but it's happened more than a few times. I currently have one (J160E) I have to address. As always, I tap down the fret and recheck before leveling it out.  

Good luck!

On the guitars where you have attained 3/64ths action, can you do a one or one and a half step bend with the high E above the 12th  fret and not hear any issues?

[Dave F]

12 minutes ago, rpavich said:

On the guitars where you have attained 3/64ths action, can you do a one or one and a half step bend with the high E above the 12th  fret and not hear any issues?

I'm mainly acoustic and do not do bends above the 12th. Especially on my 12 fret guitars 🙂 

[rct]

12 minutes ago, rpavich said:

At the 12th fret, bottom of string to top of fret

Right.  String height is measured at the first fret above the body join.  So on Fenders it is measured at the 17th.  On Gibsons, I don't remember, but a quick look says

I would measure at the 17th also for an SG.

I don't know when measuring at the 12th became the thing.  It isn't.  It wasn't ever.

rct

[rpavich]

6 hours ago, rct said:

Right.  String height is measured at the first fret above the body join.  So on Fenders it is measured at the 17th.  On Gibsons, I don't remember, but a quick look says

I would measure at the 17th also for an SG.

I don't know when measuring at the 12th became the thing.  It isn't.  It wasn't ever.

rct

According to Gibson TV and the guy on the QC line who does this set up...it's 12th fret as I described.

 

[Eracer_Team]

Pretty easy google,

standard is 5/64 low E, 4/64 high E measured own at 12th fret

at first fret open string just clears the fret as you don’t want it to buzz

that capo fret 1, hold 17th down, this creates a ‘straight edge’ 

measure at 7th fret 4thou to 8thou

hint standard paper is 4thou thick and 8 folded over,

a standard business card is 12thou 

make sure gap st 7th fret is 1 to 2 pieces of paper 

[rpavich]

Just now, Eracer_Team said:

Pretty easy google,

standard is 5/64 low E, 4/64 high E measured own at 12th fret

at first fret open string just clears the fret as you don’t want it to buzz

that capo fret 1, hold 17th down, this creates a ‘straight edge’ 

measure at 7th fret 4thou to 8thou

hint standard paper is 4thou thick and 8 folded over,

a standard business card is 12thou 

make sure gap st 7th fret is 1 to 2 pieces of paper 

Google doesn't agree with Gibson TV themselves....see video posted above right from Gibson.

[ksdaddy]

I always measure at the 12th fret, only because of consistency. If, however, as in Fender’s case, they are measuring at the 17th fret and my goal is to set a Fender up to factory specs, of course I’ll use their numbers. Because math is hard. 

[rct]

Well, everything is working out so well for you so yeah, keep trying that 12th fret thingy.

lolz

rct

[rpavich]

3 minutes ago, rct said:

Well, everything is working out so well for you so yeah, keep trying that 12th fret thingy.

lolz

rct

You don't have to get snarky....I posted the Official video from Gibson TV that explains it.

I also said that I don't have BADLY set up guitars, my guitars play spendidly...I was just wondering if anyone else has ever achieved the target of 3/64...that's all.
In the video that I posted above the Gibson tech himself didn't achieve it...he settled on 4/64.

Why do people have to resort to insults and dismissal when they disagree?

[rct]

31 minutes ago, rpavich said:

You don't have to get snarky....I posted the Official video from Gibson TV that explains it.

I also said that I don't have BADLY set up guitars, my guitars play spendidly...I was just wondering if anyone else has ever achieved the target of 3/64...that's all.
In the video that I posted above the Gibson tech himself didn't achieve it...he settled on 4/64.

Why do people have to resort to insults and dismissal when they disagree?

I'll say it again.  It isn't working out for you.  It isn't even working out for the guy that says it works out.  I come along and tell you facts, there are physics involved, setting up a guitar

has numbers for all good reasons.  There it all is, and again, even the guy from the company can't do it.

It's either the way it is and trying this is a fail for everyone involved, for the reason I stated, or it is snark.  It's up to you.

rct

[rpavich]

3 minutes ago, rct said:

I'll say it again.  It isn't working out for you.  It isn't even working out for the guy that says it works out.  I come along and tell you facts, there are physics involved, setting up a guitar

has numbers for all good reasons.  There it all is, and again, even the guy from the company can't do it.

It's either the way it is and trying this is a fail for everyone involved, for the reason I stated, or it is snark.  It's up to you.

rct

It's snark...I'll disregard.

[rct]

Ok, disregard.  But don't disregard anything I said about how your guitars are set up, because I said nothing about that at all.

String height is measured at that point because it works with proper relief to set the neck up to perform properly all over the neck.

It isn't a number we would like it to be, for the most part, it is a number that is spec'd to provide correct performance all over the neck.

If you want 3/64 at the 12th, set the guitar up to spec first.  You will have to give it a tad more relief in order to get 3/64 at the 12th, but it is possible.  If you wanted me to set your guitar up that way I would certainly try, but you might not like the feel of it at around the 6th - 10th fret area because of the relief needed, and it might have some annoying buzzing past the 12th.  To get the 12th that low may show you quickly that some of the frets up high aren't perfect.

Good luck with it.

rct

 

[NighthawkChris]

I usually do 0.012" relief capoing the first fret and depressing the 17th fret or so - where the neck meet the body essentially. (Les Paul/Nighthawk for reference)  I even have a difficult time getting 3/64" at the 12th fret to pan out too, so I usually go a little more (usually between 3 and 4 64ths) to avoid the fretting out/buzzing.  Just is what it is...  The world is not perfect and with these set necks Gibson passes out, the neck angles aren't perfect, setups are not all exact, etc. 

FYI, I have the $20 or $25 Stewmac tool to measure the action, so I am pretty confident that I am able to target a measurement. 

I understand this desire for spec action, but it sometimes doesn't work as intended.  The thing to do to make this happen is to taper off the frets a bit near the body to get the action desired.  This is what guitars for "shredders" usually do to get that low action for their legato smoothness...  You may already know this and definitely do not want to entertain this at all.  Just had to mention this as a brute force measure. 

Overall, you're probably just going to figure out what works and feels best on a unique guitar basis.  Not all guitars/Gibson are created equally unfortunately as you probably know.  Not trying to be dismissive at all, but I've seen some that can get pretty close to 3/64" at the treble side, and some that just won't do it no matter what I try to do with relief, etc.  You seem knowledgeable enough to do a setup, so definitely questioning your abilities to perform this task.  But short of doing that tapered fret business, personally not sure of any other avenue to take to get the 3/64" action with little to no interference.  Best regards, hope things work out for you.