charlie brown Posted April 24, 2008 Share Posted April 24, 2008 Something a bit more debatable, then...? Why does Gibson and others, use a pitched headstock, and Fender and others use a straight one? There doesn't seem to be much reliable consensus, on which is better...OR, is there?! There seems to be quite a notorious history of Gibson/Epiphone headstock breaks, because of the pitch...and, they've even changed the degree of the angle, and added valutes, from time to time. Any thoughts, ideas, arguments? CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RotcanX Posted April 24, 2008 Share Posted April 24, 2008 'Better' is a relative concept. Each approach has its advantages as well as its disadvantages. The flat approach (as seen on Fender and G&L guitars, for example) is good from the point of view of economics and strength. You save wood and since there's no 'short grain' your headstock is less prone to snap off. Also in these cases the neck is usually made of rock maple which also adds strength. The disadvantage is that you need string trees or weird staggered tuning posts to get a reasonable amount of tension across the nut. The angled headstock is more 'traditional' and represents the 'accepted' way to do it; this method generates a lot more waste wood (i.e. it's more expensive) and the angled headstock is more fragile (something Gibson tried to resolve in the seventies with the 'volute') and of course this condition is exacerbated by the use of comparatively weak mahogany in neck construction; but nonetheless the end result is elegant and aesthetically pleasing and you get great string tension over the nut without resorting to string trees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obed Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 From what I understand, doesn't the angled headstock also allow for more sustain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted April 25, 2008 Author Share Posted April 25, 2008 Well, that seems to be a standard view, correct or not...but, a lot of folks will debate that, according to what I've read, here and there. Headstock pictch (or not), bolt on...or "Set" necks, or...through the body necks, for that matter, all have their proponents, and reasons for being "better?" Whatever "better" means? It's interesting....my '76 LP Deluxe, has a 3 piece maple neck, with volute, which..."should" be way stronger, than the mahogany, non-valuted necks, of earlier and current models. But, collectors, and other "experts" "pooh pooh" them! Maybe it's because they're the dreaded "Norlin" era guitars? But, that LP "Screams!" I was lucky enough, to get one that didn't have that wider "paddle like" headstock, that that era was notorious for. Thank GOD! CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RotcanX Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 You're welcome. -God Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carverman Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 Well' date=' that seems to be a standard view, correct or not...but, a lot of folks will debate that, according to what I've read, here and there.Headstock pictch (or not), bolt on...or "Set" necks, or...through the body necks, for that matter, all have their proponents, and reasons for being "better?" Whatever "better" means? It's interesting....my '76 LP Deluxe, has a 3 piece maple neck, with volute, which..."should" be way stronger, than the mahogany, non-valuted necks, of earlier and current models. But, collectors, and other "experts" "pooh pooh" them! Maybe it's because they're the dreaded "Norlin" era guitars? But, that LP "Screams!" I was lucky enough, to get one that didn't have that wider "paddle like" headstock, that that era was notorious for. Thank GOD! CB[/quote'] So what is wrong with volutes. I decided to go with a volute when I had to remove a lot of wood around the nut to allow the traditional Gibby wrench to fit onto the brass nut. The wood was becoming very thin around the recessed area and the volute adds strength. If its designed and shaped correctly, it adds some character to the neck and headstock. If one was to use some of the modern truss rods or tension bars such as martinstyle truss rod (rod inside a aluminum U channel, that can be adjusted with a allen key, not as much critical neck material needs to be removed to get the adjustment wrench in. That is why the EpIs use the allen key adjuster truss rod, not sure what Gibby uses these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted April 25, 2008 Author Share Posted April 25, 2008 You're welcome. -God Now, can you do something about all these animals, this huge "boat," and this incesent rain! Thanks, Noah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted April 25, 2008 Author Share Posted April 25, 2008 So what is wrong with volutes. I decided to go with a volute when I had to remove a lot of wood around the nut to allow the traditional Gibby wrench to fit onto the brass nut. The wood was becoming very thin around the recessed area and the volute adds strength. If its designed and shaped correctly' date=' it adds some character to the neck and headstock. If one was to use some of the modern truss rods or tension bars such as martinstyle truss rod (rod inside a aluminum U channel, that can be adjusted with a allen key, not as much critical neck material needs to be removed to get the adjustment wrench in. That is why the EpIs use the allen key adjuster truss rod, not sure what Gibby uses these days. [/quote'] I don't know, carverman. I own 2 "voluted" guitars, myself. One was the mentioned '76 LP Deluxe, the other one is a 1980 Gibson LP Custom. Both have exceeded my expectations, in fit, finish, playability, and Tone! But, it's weird, the first thing other guitarist look at, when they see them, is to see if it has the "dreaded volute!" LOL! Then, they always give you that kind of "well, it's nice, but it does have that vclute thing," look...you know? I suppose it just indicates that they were made, during the dreaded "Norlin" period, which was one of, if not THE worst periods, in Gibson's history, for quality...even though, it has been widely known, that SOME great guitars came out of that time, even so. Maybe I just got lucky? Anyway...I've never had a single problem, with either guitar, with the minor exception, that now the LP Deluxe pickups, are going mirco-phonic after 32 years. But, that's a quick fix...so??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluesstringer Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 WEll, I'm not sure of all other advantages, but I can honestly say that I've never seen a Fender electric, any model with a broken or even cracked headstock and I could'nt count the number of quality angled headstock guitars that I have seen this on, both acoustic and electric. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted April 25, 2008 Author Share Posted April 25, 2008 Yeah, it's easier to be careless, with a Fender (or other such straight version headstock) guitar. The angled versions, are pretty unforgiving, in that regard. CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricochet Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 What the heck are you complaining about!!? - R. Blackmore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricochet Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 What the heck are you complaining about!!? R. Blackmore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted April 25, 2008 Author Share Posted April 25, 2008 Golly, they sure "fixed" that one funny! LOL! Now that's an "Angled" headstock!! Must be a real "non-Norlin era" one, too...ain't no stinkin' volute in sight! ;>) CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layboomo Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 I don't know' date=' carverman. I own 2 "voluted" guitars, myself. One was the mentioned '76 LP Deluxe, the other one is a 1980 Gibson LP Custom. Both have exceeded my expectations, in fit, finish, playability, and Tone! But, it's weird, the first thing other guitarist look at, when they see them, is to see if it has the "dreaded volute!" LOL! Then, they always give you that kind of "well, it's nice, but it does have that vclute thing," look...you know? I suppose it just indicates that they were made, during the dreaded "Norlin" period, which was one of, if not THE worst periods, in Gibson's history, for quality...even though, it has been widely known, that SOME great guitars came out of that time, even so. Maybe I just got lucky? Anyway...I've never had a single problem, with either guitar, with the minor exception, that now the LP Deluxe pickups, are going mirco-phonic after 32 years. But, that's a quick fix...so??? [/quote'] It's funny CB I feel the same way...I have bought and sold LP guitars costing much more than my beat up heavy(10.7+lbs) 1980 deluxe with 3 pc neck and volute...yet there is just something about that guitar I love. It screams! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JEPI Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 Just for info I thought I'd post this............J http://images.ask.com/fr?q=guitar+Volute&desturi=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.monaro.com.au%2Fguitar%2F1.htm&fm=i&ac=12&ftURI=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.ask.com%2Ffr%3Fq%3Dguitar%2BVolute%26desturi%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.monaro.com.au%252Fguitar%252F1.htm%26imagesrc%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.monaro.com.au%252Fguitar%252Fheadstock-volute.jpg%26thumbsrc%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252F65.214.37.88%252Fts%253Ft%253D5154433358494742764%26o%3D0%26l%3Ddir%26thumbuselocalisedstatic%3Dfalse%26fn%3Dheadstock-volute.jpg%26imagewidth%3D350%26imageheight%3D263%26fs%3D19%26ft%3Djpg%26f%3D2%26fm%3Di%26ftbURI%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fimages.ask.com%252Fpictures%253Fq%253Dguitar%252BVolute%2526page%253D1%2526o%253D0%2526l%253Ddir%2526pstart%253D0&qt=0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricochet Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 Jepi...You can shorten long URLs by using http://tinyurl.com just for your information.:-) I think any angled headstock should come standard with a volute. This is a pic of my Epi LP Midnight. Look how thin the wood is under the trussrod. It's hardly 3mm! This guitar had an accident but I'm pretty sure if I had given a big knock on the headstock it would have snapped anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JEPI Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 Jepi...You can shorten long URLs by using http://tinyurl.comjust for your information.:-) Thanks.....Didn't know about this..........J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eracer_Team Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 This guy hates Gibson's from what I can read but I didn't know about the neck breakage thing till I started looking. http://www.edroman.com/rants/les_paul_necks.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layboomo Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 This guy hates Gibson's from what I can read but I didn't know about the neck breakage thing till I started looking.http://www.edroman.com/rants/les_paul_necks.htm Do yourself a favor and disregard anything that a$$wipe Ed Roman has to say about Gibson's (or any other guitars for that matter!). He's a jerk! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricochet Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 Regardless...He has a point. At €2800(=4370 US Dollaroonies) I'd expect Gibson to take every effort in making my Les Paul's neck/headstock construction as sturdy as possible. But hey, if it aint broken...wait let me rephrase. Never change a ...no wait. Ah...Robotguitar, now there's innovative thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
layboomo Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 Regardless...He has a point. At €2800(=4370 US Dollaroonies) I'd expect Gibson to take every effort in making my Les Paul's neck/headstock construction as sturdy as possible. But hey' date=' if it aint broken...wait let me rephrase. Never change a ...no wait. Ah...Robotguitar, now there's innovative thinking.[/quote'] Yeah I know he makes several points which are valid,but you really have to read between the lines and take everything Roman sais with a grain of salt...he's a well documented shyster. The robo guitar is just rediculous....agreed. I'm not a huge fan of all gibsons either.....and I've only bought 2 brand new ones in my lifetime because they are soooo overpriced....but any headstock with that pitch and no volute is prone to breaking regardless of who made it and how much it costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RotcanX Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 So what is wrong with volutes. I decided to go with a volute when I had to removea lot of wood around the nut to allow the traditional Gibby wrench to fit onto the brass nut. The wood was becoming very thin around the recessed area and the volute adds strength. If its designed and shaped correctly' date=' it adds some character to the neck and headstock. If one was to use some of the modern truss rods or tension bars such as martinstyle truss rod (rod inside a aluminum U channel, that can be adjusted with a allen key, not as much critical neck material needs to be removed to get the adjustment wrench in. That is why the EpIs use the allen key adjuster truss rod, not sure what Gibby uses these days. [/quote'] I also like the volute. I remember when I bought my first SG in 1974 how much I liked the look and feel of it; to me it was an indicator of the superior workmanship of a Gibson. Unfortunately, the Gibson cognoscenti detest the volute because it isn't 'vintage' i.e. they didn't do it in the fifties. So, once again, good engineering is sacrificed for style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluesstringer Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 I hate to be uneducated here, particularly as long as I've been around - So....What exactly is a volute ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biff Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 I hate to be uneducated here' date=' particularly as long as I've been around - So....What exactly is a volute ?[/quote'] It's that extra lump of wood in the joint of the neck and headstock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carverman Posted April 25, 2008 Share Posted April 25, 2008 Jepi...You can shorten long URLs by using http://tinyurl.comjust for your information.:-) I think any angled headstock should come standard with a volute. This is a pic of my Epi LP Midnight. Look how thin the wood is under the trussrod. It's hardly 3mm! This guitar had an accident but I'm pretty sure if I had given a big knock on the headstock it would have snapped anyway. well, that may be because the neck/headstock is made of cheaper mahogany which is softer and not as resilient as the Honduras type which is harder to find these days. but..even so...get some well seasoned North American maple or hickory (the stuff they use to make axe handles out of, and I garantee that it could take a few bounces on its head without any adverse effects... something to be said about Canadian back bacon, maple syrup and hard maple...we don't have much to offer to the world, but we seem to have plenty of those three..and oh yes..some very good beer! :- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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