The_Sentry Posted August 7, 2008 Share Posted August 7, 2008 I'm wondering if in 5-10 years this whole wood debate will be as applicable in terms of tone since the arrival of nanotechnology.....(So, technically in 5-10 years you could see some sort of weird wood composite being used in guitars that is nano-treated for greater density....especially if the cost of lumber and wood as a whole continues to rise in conjunction with environmental groups pushing to reduce the amount of wood being harvested from forests.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron G Posted August 7, 2008 Share Posted August 7, 2008 I'm wondering if in 5-10 years this whole wood debate will be as applicable in terms of tone since the arrival of nanotechnology.....(So' date=' technically in 5-10 years you could see some sort of weird wood composite being used in guitars that is nano-treated for greater density....especially if the cost of lumber and wood as a whole continues to rise in conjunction with environmental groups pushing to reduce the amount of wood being harvested from forests.)[/quote'] Good question, especially considering the high-quality carbon fiber composite acoustic instruments currently being sold. I read a couple articles about them and saw a TV piece, too. Not only are they said to be good but they are so durable that they can be left in a hot car trunk or splashed at the beach with no ill effect. Maybe the wood debate will be moot in the future...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie Nazarenie Posted August 7, 2008 Share Posted August 7, 2008 maybe but purists will only dig wood. dad and son in music shop... "that guitar sounds great dad." "in my day it was mdf and cardboard son the real stuff. with real tone!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Sentry Posted August 7, 2008 Share Posted August 7, 2008 maybe but purists will only dig wood. dad and son in music shop... "that guitar sounds great dad." "in my day it was mdf and cardboard son the real stuff. with real tone!" Oh, that goes without saying. But if said dad was shopping for a guitar for his son, and the purist wood model was 5000 dollars (which may not be beyond the realm of possibilities if raw material costs continue to rise) and the composite wood model was 500 dollars and the manufacturer was able to offer an improved warranty because of the qualities of the composite..... All I can say is if I was banking on doing business based on units sold with lower costs....well..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie Nazarenie Posted August 7, 2008 Share Posted August 7, 2008 i'll leave composite till we know it's safe. i bet someone somewhere made an asbestos guitar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iansmitchell Posted August 7, 2008 Share Posted August 7, 2008 Carbon fiber is pretty damn cheap. Cast a frame and put in a neck, I think the body alone for an acosutic would be about 60 for the fiber and maybe 25 for a solid steel frame to mount the neck on. The weight would be annoying as hell cause the neck would outweigh the body 2-3 times depending on quantity and composite of the metal frame. To make a whole solidbody guitar, that's a more difficult issue, it's not as easy to use pre-engineered, mass-produced stuff there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byrds1965 Posted August 7, 2008 Share Posted August 7, 2008 I think it is safe to say that despite artists and bands that pushed the boudaries in music as a whole musicians are a pretty conservative bunch. Sorry man I want my guitar made of real wood of some sort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Sentry Posted August 7, 2008 Share Posted August 7, 2008 Carbon fiber is pretty damn cheap. Cast a frame and put in a neck' date=' I think the body alone for an acosutic would be about 60 for the fiber and maybe 25 for a solid steel frame to mount the neck on. The weight would be annoying as hell cause the neck would outweigh the body 2-3 times depending on quantity and composite of the metal frame. To make a whole solidbody guitar, that's a more difficult issue, it's not as easy to use pre-engineered, mass-produced stuff there.[/quote'] Question Ian... How difficult would it be to add weight to the body with another substance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iansmitchell Posted August 7, 2008 Share Posted August 7, 2008 Question Ian... How difficult would it be to add weight to the body with another substance? Carbon fiber is strong in tensile strength(like rope), but in impacts it's not incredible. To support extra weight, you'd have to either add layers, increase tension, or both. Extra tension can change tone, which can be used to improve sound, but isn't incredibly easy to calibrate. The substance you'd want to use to add weight shouldn't be detrimental to tone. Solid steel frame and carbon fiber sides, top, and back, may be enough to balance out your basic acoustic, without having to "fill" anything. Tension could then be used to change tone, something formerly only possible by changing the wood in the guitar itself. A rotary tension knob at the back of the neck, could be used for such a purpose. Now, in achtop hollow, semi-hollow and solid body guitars, more layers of fabric, or different carbon construction altogether(liek that used in carbon car hoods), would be required to achieve proper feel and profile, and the ability to change tension for tone would likely be lost. Fully hollowbodies would require something like what's used in car hoods, thicker, more rigid layers of carbon fiber, in order to keep shape. These would hence probably need different kind of necks to attain comfortable weight balance. Semi-hollows would probably still have to have wooden center block, even if the wings were made of carbon fiber instead of laminate. The necks would still be able to be made of wood, albeit lighter tuners would be needed for balance. These are probably the most easily engineered. Solid bodies pose the hardest challenge for carbon-based construction, they would likely have to be built from the ground up with the intention of being used as instruments.. The technology is all there, in theory, but as we all know, electric guitars aren't the fastest-moving technology. Hell, most of our stuff hasn't changed since the 60's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snookelputz Posted August 7, 2008 Share Posted August 7, 2008 Rainsong Stealth There are companies currently marketing guitars made of various wood-based (but not wood) and non-wood composites. I bought a Stealth to check out the technology. It's as heavy, depending on individual wood, as any LP, resonant, sustains well, tone is on a par with any comparable priced guitar, but I suspect this is the best this technology can do, because if they COULD make a $10,000 guitar they WOULD. Since they don't make one, I don't believe they can - or at least that it wouldn't compare in any worthwhile fashion at that level. It's made of some dry, compressed granular stuff that looks like little styrofoam pellets that are very very tiny and sort of hard. I don't know how to describe it. It's like grains of salt when you scrape at it. You can feel the stuff smush together into a bigger clump, so there's no apparent problem transferring sound from bit to bit. It vibrates against your stomach and in your hands as much as any other guitar. Eh, I have better guitars and so it sits in a box, because who would buy a used one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron G Posted August 7, 2008 Share Posted August 7, 2008 Ian, CA's guitars don't have steel frames, nor do they have truss rods - they apparently don't need them. You might want to take a look at their web site and see what they're all about. http://www.compositeacoustics.com/ Quite interesting....now if I could just play one.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiggy Posted August 7, 2008 Share Posted August 7, 2008 I had a long and detailed 'chat' with Gibson as to the actual wood used in my LP Std Natural (Limited Edition, Custom Shop, etc, etc According to them (and checked out and agreed by a cabinet builder friend when I had the pickups out) the body of mine is 3 pieces of Nato with a solid maple cap. Top has a flame maple veneer (about 2mm) and the rear has a Honduran mahogany veneer (again about 2mm). The neck is African mahogany with a rosewood fingerboard (of unknown provenance). My argument was - If the body is Nato then why not say so rather than call it mahogany. Nato is a perfectly good tonewood and is used in some very high end acoustic guitars, it's not like we're talking plywood (unless it's called Masonite obviously in which case it works very well!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tele63 Posted August 7, 2008 Share Posted August 7, 2008 From everything that I've read, another name for NATO is Eastern Mahogany. It is a good tonewood that shares some, not all, qualities of the more expensive varieties of mahogany. Bottom line it is, but it isn't, but it is. If you like the way it sounds that is all that matters. Don't get hung up on the wording no matter how frustrating it is. Hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Sentry Posted August 7, 2008 Share Posted August 7, 2008 Ian' date=' CA's guitars don't have steel frames, nor do they have truss rods - they apparently don't need them. You might want to take a look at their web site and see what they're all about. http://www.compositeacoustics.com/ Quite interesting....now if I could just play one....[/quote'] Hmm.....Which begs another question.... If they can increase the density of wood with nanotechnology, couldn't they also make a plastic truss rod that never rusted, and tensile wise was as strong as steel? Hmmmmm... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron G Posted August 7, 2008 Share Posted August 7, 2008 My point is that some makers of guitars, violins and......whatever are introducing new technology into their construction. Whether and when these new materials become more common is the question. Beside cost/profit, the "way we've always done it" is a big factor; resistance to change is very common. But composites are here to stay. Hell, the new Boeing 787 is made of composites, as is Richard Branson's new mothership for his new space vehicle. Aesthetics aside, there is a real attraction to me of a quality guitar that's almost unbreakable, impervious to weather and doesn't require adjustment due to material instability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie Nazarenie Posted August 7, 2008 Share Posted August 7, 2008 ah! the gm guitar. just don't grow it near my crops. and after it's been flamed grilled on stage you can eat it. extra spicy cow hide.:-s/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Sentry Posted August 7, 2008 Share Posted August 7, 2008 My point is that some makers of guitars' date=' violins and......whatever are introducingnew technology into their construction. Whether and when these new materials become more common is the question. Beside cost/profit, the "way we've always done it" is a big factor; resistance to change is very common. But composites are here to stay. Hell, the new Boeing 787 is made of composites, as is Richard Branson's new mothership for his new space vehicle. Aesthetics aside, there is a real attraction to me of a quality guitar that's almost unbreakable, impervious to weather and doesn't require adjustment due to material instability. [/quote'] Well, I figure that between Gibson and Epiphone, unless it's some major revolutionary product like the Robot Guitar, they'd be more likely to test the waters with Epiphone first....especially when it comes to construction materials. (I could see the argument now..."WHAT?? THIS isn't a maple top? It's not a mahogany body? What is this stuff?") Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iansmitchell Posted August 7, 2008 Share Posted August 7, 2008 Ian' date=' CA's guitars don't have steel frames, nor do they have truss rods - they apparently don't need them. You might want to take a look at their web site and see what they're all about. http://www.compositeacoustics.com/ Quite interesting....now if I could just play one....[/quote'] I'm not saying theirs require the engineering I thought up... Also, if you have no truss rod, you can only intonate with one guage of strings... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RotcanX Posted August 7, 2008 Share Posted August 7, 2008 Nothing new about making guitars from composite materials. Ampeg did that way back in the seventies. I owned a couple of these at various times back in the late seventies/early eighties... Plexiglas body ('lucite'); 24-fret neck (the bolts are under the pickguard, amazing uper fret access), and one interchangeable pickup (there were seven different styles you could buy). Volume, tone, and a switch that shorted the tone cap for full bass in position one, did nothing in the middle, and overrode the volume control in the third position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlennW Posted August 7, 2008 Share Posted August 7, 2008 Danelectros have been made with Masonite since the '50s or '60s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iansmitchell Posted August 7, 2008 Share Posted August 7, 2008 Isn't masonite just plywood? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnpaulgeorge Posted August 7, 2008 Share Posted August 7, 2008 Saw some Trev Wilkinson prototypes a while back that looked to be made from plastic..............!!! What's that all about?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smerdlap Posted August 7, 2008 Share Posted August 7, 2008 Some violin makers have in recent years seen pine to be among the finest tonewood for upper midrange and high sounds' date=' while yielding the least nasal tones. So it wouldn't be the worst thing, really.[/quote'] Hmmmmmm... Thats interesting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iansmitchell Posted August 7, 2008 Share Posted August 7, 2008 Hmmmmmm... Thats interesting I thought so too. They said knotty pine was the best. It's $4/foot at my local lumber yard... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RotcanX Posted August 7, 2008 Share Posted August 7, 2008 Masonite is sawdust and glue. Note that some early Telecasters were made of pine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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