Custom Admin: Volute on Lifeson 355

[1meanmalibu]

 

 

Thanks for your help Wondo!

 

Here's the picture I took at the recent Rush show in Toronto on July 9th. I snapped this picture after the show ended, so it may be a bit dark, but because the ES-355's are white, they stand out and you can see that Alex's 1976 ES-355 is in front of the Custom ES-355, or in other words, the one on the left and the Custom on the right. Can you see the volute on the Custom? It's much more pronounced. When I stood at the stage barrier I could clearly see the difference. Trust me!...........(famous last words.)

 

I'd also like to point out that Alex's Custom ES-355 was not numbered but I'm wondering if Custom Admin could confirm that for us. Would you mind please Custom Admin? I'd appreciate it!

[Custom Admin]

 

I'd also like to point out that Alex's Custom ES-355 was not numbered but I'm wondering if Custom Admin could confirm that for us. Would you mind please Custom Admin? I'd appreciate it!

 

as i said previously, i didn't see Al's protos in person...usually protos don't have a number on them, so that would make sense.

[Wondo]

1meanmalibu,

 

I do say ole chap, nicely done. Here, here. Nice detective work.

 

As I see it, I actually would have to say that it is the original 76 355 that has a more pronounced volute. The Lifeson's volute is actually less pronounced. It is more subtle, but it is a bit lower than the original. Here are some pictures to help my point:

 

First is the back of my headstock:

 

 

Now, the back of a 76 355 (different phot from what I posted before):

 

 

 

 

And of course, the template from the CS:

 

 

 

I am beginning to think, by looking at these photos, that the ramp of the volute on both of these guitars start at almost the same place (between the nut and the dot in the first fret area). The difference seems to be that the 76 volute is more steep and ends further up on the headstock whereas the volute on the Lifeson is a more subtle taper and ends sooner thus further down on the headstock. Perhaps Alex asked for it this way to actually make the volute less steep than the original. Again, we know there is surely a difference between the original and the CS version, but the why has still to be answered.

[L5Larry]

A pictures worth a thousand words. The volutes on these two guitars are CLEARLY in different positions! One is right and one is wrong. It doesn't even really matter which two guitars these are, it proves there is a difference. Whether the difference is between the original and a prototype, or a prototype and a production model, is not the consumer issue here. The guitars were built wrong! Whether Alex Lifeson signed off on the prototype is not the consumer issue here, he got his endorsement fee, but the guitars were built wrong! How a company that prides itself on reputation like Gibson can try to sweep this under the rug, and continue making and selling these instruments in this way, is beyond comprehension. You made a mistake, admit it and fix it.

 

This is a design and manufacturing blunder of the highest proportions. This whole project has fallen through the cracks of reasonable tolerance, both in design and construction, and consumer relations and public information. It's time someone at Gibson stood up and took responsibility for this, instead in sicking the marketing department on damage control.

[1meanmalibu]

Hey again Wondo,

 

I see what you mean brother about one volute being more or less pronounced than the other. I realize I didn't describe it very well and thanks for clarifying it better.

 

I made a post at the main Alex Lifeson forum which I'd like you (or anyone for that matter) to comment on regarding Alex Lifeson's gold signature on the guitar case if you wouldn't mind.

[Wondo]

Hey again Wondo' date='

 

I see what you mean brother about one volute being more or less pronounced than the other. I realize I didn't describe it very well and thanks for clarifying it better.

 

I made a post at the main Alex Lifeson forum which I'd like you (or anyone for that matter) to comment on regarding Alex Lifeson's gold signature on the guitar case if you wouldn't mind.[/quote']

 

Hey bro, no problem. I'm not even suggesting that you described it wrong, I am just discovering how, by the latest picture of a 76 355 how the volutes may actually be in close to the correct place. The difference is the steepness of the volute on the 76. If they ramp up at the same place but the Lifeson is smaller, than it would make sense that it would taper back into the headstock at a lower position. The 76 has a much steeper volute and thus tapers back into the headstock at a higher position, thus making the Lifeson look lower. When in actuality they may be in the same location. I am not changing my opinion about it being wrong. It is definately wrong no matter how you look at it, but I think the difference may be in how steep the volutes are, not necessarily where they are placed. What we really need is a picture of a 76 355 taken from the same straight on angle as the template from the custom shop. That would solve that part of the mystery.

[VRob8]

If all this is the case, and the volute on the new AL 355 is shallower (albeit lower) does that not suggest quite strongly that Alex Lifeson prefers it that way and actually asked for it to be like that?

 

In which case, all these accusations of the guitar being a 'dud, a 'flop, a 'POS' etc. could quite possibly be based on Gibson simply building the guitar how Alex Lifeson wanted it built?

 

I think further invective is unwise until the facts have been established on this.

[Wondo]

If all this is the case' date=' and the volute on the new AL 355 is shallower (albeit lower) does that not suggest quite strongly that Alex Lifeson prefers it that way and actually asked for it to be like that?

 

In which case, all these accusations of the guitar being a 'dud, a 'flop, a 'POS' etc. could quite possibly be based on Gibson simply building the guitar how Alex Lifeson wanted it built?

 

I think further invective is unwise until the facts have been established on this. [/quote']

 

Right. Unless we know the why, we will never understand this whole con-voluted thing. What we are feeling on the neck is the fact that the volute begins and ends below the nut. On the traditional 70s Gibsons, the volute begins here, but does not end here. The peak of the volute ends behind the nut. The ramp will feel the same on your hand, what feels different on the Lifeson is that the ramp ends because it is shallow and does not continue to ramp up behind the nut and thus the web of skin between your index finger and thumb can rest on the peak of the volute (depending on the chords you are playing). This would not have happened on a 70s model because the volute ended behind the nut, but the ramp is the same. In other words it is like you took the ramp of a 70s model and cut it in half horizontally. It makes for a much smaller volute, but your hand will feel it, but if you needed to get more room out of that first fret area, on a 70's model you cannot...there is nowhere else to go. But, with the Lifeson model, there is more room, just a bump. I say if Lifeson was that particular about the uncomfortableness of the neck, he should have just opted to have no volute. I think we would have all understood that one. There are a lot of things about a 70's model that we knew we weren't going to get. Like Patent # pickups and 70's wood and a Schaller bridge. These things just don't exist anymore. I was hoping that volutes didn't exist any more as well.

[VRob8]

This also suggests that it's not a mere CNC error. If that was the case, the volute would have been the same height but lower down the neck. Instead, the whole area has been built and shaped completely different to the originals. So either the craftsmen involved were completely unable to follow the contours and dimensions of the original (seems unlikely?) or the neck was deliberately made this way upon request.

[L5Larry]

The difference is the steepness of the volute on the 76. If they ramp up at the same place but the Lifeson is smaller' date=' than it would make sense that it would taper back into the headstock at a lower position. The 76 has a much steeper volute and thus tapers back into the headstock at a higher position, thus making the Lifeson look lower.[/quote']

 

I think your missing the point. It's not the ramping up point, the taper back into the headstock, or the steepness that is the problem, those are all a function of where the volute breaks (the place at which there is a sudden and dramatic change in angle). Wherever the volute breaks it has to taper into the existing contours of the neck and headstock. The ridge of the volute, that's what I'm going to call it, and the dramatic change in angle above it, being in the playing area of the neck, is what affects the playability, not a slight "ramping up", or "taper back". The recent post of pics from the Toronto concert prove that the ridge of the volute is in different places on the two guitars in the rack. No one in their right mind would purposely design a ridge in the neck where you had to span it with your hand to play in the open or first fret positions, and as stated in a previous post, it also serves no structural purpose in this position. I DO believe this was probably a CNC programming error that slipped through all the cracks and right into production.

 

As I said before, I have no dog in this fight, the ES in my arsenal is a Historic 345. I'm just trying help explain and define the problem from my 35 years of experience with Gibson guitars, with and without volutes, and offer an unbiased opinion. I think the situation is clearly black and white.

 

Thank you for your time, I will watch the rest of this discussion from the bleachers. Good Luck.

[VRob8]

I DO believe this was probably a CNC programming error that slipped through all the cracks and right into production.

 

Everything you say makes perfect sense, and I can accept your theory right up until the point where Alex Lifeson (apparently) signed off on it. Is it possible, given how well he knows his original, that he really wouldn't have noticed a lump in the neck in the first fret position? That's the bit I find hard to accept.

[Wondo]

L5 Larry,

I don't know what you are saying is in disagreement with what I said. I agree the way it is serves no purpose. What I am saying is that the ramp on the 76 and the Lifeson seem to start in the same place. What is different is that the Lifeson's ramp is smaller and the ridge as you call it peaks between the nut and first fret (between the nut and dot to be more precise - and I am in agreement, this is not a good situation). The 76 continues to ramp and the ridge then ends behind the nut. Both volutes serve no purpose and will not decrease the weakiness of the neck. This has been proven and is why Gibson stopped making them and went back to the original design of the back of the headstock. Because the Lifeson's ramp is more shallow and the crest happens before the nut, it is much more noticable, but what is different is with the old design, the height of the volute prevents your hand from fitting anywhere behind the nut if it needed to as do the current design on Gibsons. The Lifeson gives more room, but now you have the ridge of the volute in the way...a totally purposeless, stupid and poor design.

[Scuba Steve]

Wow, I have been reading this thread and I am very concerned.

I have not fully accepted the fact that alex signed off on this cause i fill it's incorrect as well.

Now that it has come to light what will be the legacy of this guitar ?

I put this to gibson since I payed alot of money for it :

DID I BUY A MISTAKE ?

This is the question that needs to be answered.

The fact that everyone knows now that this guitar has a flaw and are asking questions: will it bring this down in value? gibson can't say it made a mistake

there would be 300 of them.

This would be a problem.

I think it is one of the most awesome looking guitars ever but someone had to know !

TNX for the ear admin

[enduroexpert]

This also suggests that it's not a mere CNC error. If that was the case' date=' the volute would have been the same height but lower down the neck. Instead, the whole area has been built and shaped completely different to the originals. So either the craftsmen involved were completely unable to follow the contours and dimensions of the original (seems unlikely?) or the neck was deliberately made this way upon request. [/quote']

 

I see where your heading with this and I agree.....but just a couple of notes:-

 

CNC's don't make errors (Programmers & Operators do)

 

Alex wanted it close to his original, if the incorrect Volute was accepted & requested by Big Al himself then the "Custom Shop" can verify this which they haven't so thats out the window.

 

This discussions been going on for weeks now and Gibson can't give a straight answer, we all know whats happened here, the guitars been hurried along and mistakes and quality yet again have taken a plunge and we all bought into it cause we were so blind with the fact we got one of our heroes guitars.......end of really...!!!!

 

They either admit it or keep us hanging on forever........

 

I'll ask again, please "Custom Admin" can you please email a phone No. for the Custom Shop so that we can ask these guys as they're obviously not giving you the correct answers.......???

 

PLEASE

[enduroexpert]

This also suggests that it's not a mere CNC error. If that was the case' date=' the volute would have been the same height but lower down the neck. Instead, the whole area has been built and shaped completely different to the originals. So either the craftsmen involved were completely unable to follow the contours and dimensions of the original (seems unlikely?) or the neck was deliberately made this way upon request. [/quote']

 

I see where your heading with this and I agree.....but just a couple of notes:-

 

CNC's don't make errors (Programmers & Operators do)

 

Alex wanted it close to his original, if the incorrect Volute was accepted & requested by Big Al himself then the "Custom Shop" can verify this which they haven't so thats out the window.

 

This discussions been going on for weeks now and Gibson can't give a straight answer, we all know whats happened here, the guitars been hurried along and mistakes and quality yet again have taken a plunge and we all bought into it cause we were so blind with the fact we got one of our heroes guitars.......end of really...!!!!

 

They either admit it or keep us hanging on forever........

 

I'll ask again, please "Custom Admin" can you please email a phone No. for the Custom Shop so that we can ask these guys as they're obviously not giving you the correct answers.......???

 

PLEASE

[Custom Admin]

 

I see where your heading with this and I agree.....but just a couple of notes:-

 

CNC's don't make errors (Programmers & Operators do)

 

Alex wanted it close to his original' date=' if the incorrect Volute was accepted & requested by Big Al himself then the "Custom Shop" can verify this which they haven't so thats out the window.

 

This discussions been going on for weeks now and Gibson can't give a straight answer, we all know whats happened here, the guitars been hurried along and mistakes and quality yet again have taken a plunge and we all bought into it cause we were so blind with the fact we got one of our heroes guitars.......end of really...!!!!

 

They either admit it or keep us hanging on forever........

 

I'll ask again, please "Custom Admin" can you please email a phone No. for the Custom Shop so that we can ask these guys as they're obviously not giving you the correct answers.......???

 

PLEASE[/quote']

 

all the contact info you could ever want is here.

 

http://www.gibson.com/en-us/support/

[turkeyT]

No possible answer from Gibson is going to change the guitar you currently have in your hands. Either it's a design choice or it was a mistake. If you were to find out which it is, what then? The actual reason behind the volute placement doesn't actually matter. Evaluate the guitar you have in your hands today. Pick it up and play. If it feels great, sounds great, looks great and fits for you, keep it. If not, sell it and move on.

 

I'm keeping mine.

[enduroexpert]

No possible answer from Gibson is going to change the guitar you currently have in your hands. Either it's a design choice or it was a mistake. If you were to find out which it is' date=' what then? The actual reason behind the volute placement doesn't actually matter. Evaluate the guitar you have in your hands today. Pick it up and play. If it feels great, sounds great, looks great and fits for you, keep it. If not, sell it and move on.

 

I'm keeping mine.

 

 

 

 

[/quote']

 

Likewise, mines a keeper cause I love it sound & looks and the volute doesn't cause me a "playing" issue and your absolutely correct an answer from Gibson won't change the guitar we now own. If the Volute was an issue to my playing I'd be back on a plane and knocking at the CS door guitar in hand....

 

Its the fact that folk have paid $4000 for a guitar from a "so called" Custom Shop and can't get an explanation to a simple question about a possible major design flaw which hinders some players, so saying that the "actual reason behind the volute placement doesn't actually matter" is way off mark, it needs an answer......

 

Its as simple a question/answer scenario as ......Why is there a wheel at each corner of my new car Mr Dealership....?

 

So where's the simple answer....?

[Wondo]

 

all the contact info you could ever want is here.

 

http://www.gibson.com/en-us/support/

 

No disrespect intended here at all Admin because you have always been helpful before in most matters, but I have rarely got straight answers from the Gibson customer support line. When I called to ask about the Lifeson when it had already been announced at NAMM, they had no idea what I was talking about. When I bought my Peter Frampton Custom and was waiting for it to arrive, I asked about the strap locks. They said it does not come with strap locks and the only guitar they knew that came with strap locks was the Tony Iommi SG. Well, the Frampton comes with Dunlop locks and the Iommi has none. They have repeatedly been useless, for me any way. That is why I come here to get answers. I remember back in the day I used to call and ask questions and I got answers. I remember once I had an issue with a serial number and they actually patched me through to Walter Carter. How's that for service?

[enduroexpert]

 

all the contact info you could ever want is here.

 

http://www.gibson.com/en-us/support/

 

Custom Admin - you are the most informative person at Gibson, you've been great, its the Customer Service/Support lines that have been useless in the past as if reading the answers to your questions from a sheet in front of them.......they've always seemed to lack product knowledge in a big way.

[Custom Admin]

i can't and won't post anyone's personal contact info on here, nor will i email it to you. i'm sorry. if you call our corporate office, you might be surprised how much info you can get out of the receptionist.

[enduroexpert]

Right then.....

 

Rodger at Gibson Customer Services is getting in touch with the Custom Shop as I type to get the low down on this Volute and will email me with his findings, he was very polite and helpfull so lets keep fingers crossed we get a definite answer..........

 

I'll post as soon as I have word

 

Johnny

[Custom Admin]

well...the first person roger is going to contact is me, so you can guess how this one's going to end.

[PJLCC14]

LOL

[enduroexpert]

well...the first person roger is going to contact is me' date=' so you can guess how this one's going to end.[/quote']

 

So if I call Rodger again, is there anyone can you advise of anyone or department he came put me in touch with....?

 

I told him we'd been chatting with yourself about this so I'd hope he wouldn't approach you...... or that would be cause for concern...!!