MarxBros Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 . . Mmmm...popcorn. Plenty of butter and salt I hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron G Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 Mmmm...popcorn. Plenty of butter and salt I hope. And melamine, too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Strum Posted December 10, 2008 Author Share Posted December 10, 2008 . . I hope you made enough for at least two of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicester35 Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 So....tell me...beyond the bought and paid for name on the headstock what connection does any modern Epiphone have with the original pre-1957 Epiphones or even the Gibson-made Epiphone which they vainly attempt to emulate? Different materials' date=' different finishes, different hardware, different electronics different specs, different country of origin (it only doesn't matter to those who don't want it to matter)...Jim Rosenberg? He's not clue-less...he's a genius..he's sold a hell of a lot of people a delusion and they eat it right up...and the truly clue-less are those who buy into the abject stupidity of not being able to (or not be willing to) grasp that one product is made to sell on the basis of it superficially resembling the other product without any basis of comparison...but the marketing plans goes like this...If it looks enough like the high price spread and you validate it by slapping a recognizable name on it, they'll buy it...look how successful Wal* Mart has been at selling Chinese crap with familiar names to a bunch of stupid rednecks who'll gladly take a house-load of cheap sh!t because it makes them feel affluent while having no actual prosperity...I guess you still haven't grasped that you're being played for a fool if you think that Gibson doesn't know exactly what they're selling you when you buy an Epiphone... you believe that there isn't a substantial difference between a Gibson and an Epiphone...you think you're getting a bargain...No, Jim Rosenberg has an advanced degree in selling dreams to dreamers and he knows exactly what the market will bear and how to draw in the suckers...the ones who want to eat steak and pay for burger....Make fun of me all you want but we both know I'm right don't we?...and even if you don't think I'm right...I know I am...sucker. Nelson[/quote'] Stepping tentatively into the fray here... If the Sheraton I am on the point of purchasing had Unsung emblazoned on the headstock (as opposed to Epiphone) would you be less offended? Also, is my 2008 American Fender Stratocaster a "real" Fender, or should that name be applied to pre-CBS guitars only? I'm not trying to poke you with a stick here Nelson, to see if you'll bite. I'm genuinely curious as regards your interpretation of when Epiphone "died," so to speak... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nelson Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 Stepping tentatively into the fray here... If the Sheraton I am on the point of purchasing had Unsung emblazoned on the headstock' date=' as opposed to [i']Epiphone[/i] would you be less offended? Also, is my 2008 American Fender Stratocaster a "real" Fender, or should that name be applied to pre-CBS guitars only? I'm not trying to poke you with a stick here Nelson, to see if you'll bite, I'm just curious... You know, it isn't a matter of me being offended because I've been in this fray more than once before and have gone up a lot more formidable minds than this group of jokers. Having Epiphone on the headstock is fine and those Samicks and those Peerless and those Unsung and other Korean-made Epiphones are all pretty nice guitars. No question, no qualification but what ultimately happens is that EPIPHONE name alone get invoked as some kind of qualifier of viability...once...many, many many years ago Epiphone at some market niches did compete on an equal basis...once Epiphones were actually made side by side with their Gibson cousins...those days are long gone but that perception remains and it's taken advantage of by those now selling Epiphones and Gibsons...people are also convinced that Asian products in terms of material and manufacturing quality is on an equal basis with the American but please tell me on what basis? The materials are different (cheaper), the hardware, electronics and finish (all cheaper) are different and if you think some twenty year Chinese kid assigned to run the CNC machine is the glowing example of ancient Chinese luthiery art, I'm sorry but you're ( rhetorical "you" not you personally) fukked up in the head beyond all reason....if a product is made to be cheaper at every turn how can possibly be even seriously considered along side a product which is made to a level of quality and not to a price niche?...there's no question that even the Gibson have very automated processes these days but there's still a considerable element of craftsmanship that goes into that guitar...there is NO element of craftsmanship required in the Chinese product. I love it when they say it doesn't matter where it's coming from...let's say you need a specialized heart pump mechanism...there's one that's made in the USA for two grand or one made in China for a few hundred...your life depends upon it and you only get one shot...which do you buy? Don't tell me it doesn't really matter...it only doesn't matter when one thinks they're getting some kind of Gibson at discount prices and all they have to do is get past the exploited, slave labor and the filthiest environment in the modern world....I can't do that...and fortunately for me I don't have to do that. Epiphone died in about 1952 and since then it's been a name and only a name living off that pre-1952 entity...you can buy a lot of different defunct product names and slap it on any crap you can get made cheaply in China and then wax about the "history" of that name...it's called marketing bullsh!t. Nelson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Strum Posted December 10, 2008 Author Share Posted December 10, 2008 ....Make fun of me all you want but we both know I'm right don't we?...and even if you don't think I'm right...I know I am...sucker. Nelson Nelson, all crap aside. Is it Epi you don't like or is it the fact that some people think their Epi's are as good as Gibsons? If someone feel that there Epi is as good, then at the very least, it is through their eyes and ears. The endless debate on Gibson versus Epi seems to get a bit nasty when someone makes claim their Epi is just as good as Gibson. I hear the same argument when it comes to Squier and Fender and in that argument I am like you and tell people there is no #$#$% way, but yet there are people that firmly believe it. So, I guess the bottom line is - who gives a ****? Oh, and do you really need to make personal attacks? - that applies to anyone that has been doing that during this latest great debate about Gibson and epiphone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 Gibson owns Epiphone. Where THEY decide they'll make them, is up to them. They're still Epiphones! They haven't been (non-Gibson) Epiphones, for over 50 years, now. So what?! ;>b I think Gibson is doing several things, as is the rest of Corporate America. Trying to make the most money, they can while producing a decent product, off-shore. Welcome to the Global Economy/Market. We (America) have done this, to ourselves. So, in previous used language..."Get Over It!" I for one, am glad that Epiphone is being made in China, now...in a Dedicated factory, so that Gibson can oversee the quality a bit better, and not be just buying Samick's with a different headstock. Those guitars are good quality, though, and owners of them, can be assured they'll do the job, just fine! I TOO..wish Epi, and every other American brand product, was all Made In USA...but, that's not going to happen! Corporate greed, along with consumer demand for low prices, will continually fuel, all of this. And, as long as we (the consumer) puts up with, and/or demands such...that's what we'll get. I get just as frustrated, as the next person, at a lot of what's going on, in this country/world. But, how (realistically) are you going to stop it? It's like a rolling snowball, now. What we need to do, is re-evaluate our priorities, across the board. Stop living beyond our means (Fat Chance...LOL), and trying to "keep up with the Jone's, Nakamura's, Chang's, or Magumba's." But, that's just "human nature," and will continue to be such, no doubt! As to Epiphones...if it says Epiphone, and was made BY Gibson's authorized plants, no matter where they are, they are Epiphones...period! "Fogeddaboudit!" ;>) CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron G Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 Months ago I said that I thought the term "counterfeit Epiphone" was absolutely ludicrous, being that modern Epiphone-branded guitars are/were made in approximately 20 different factories in Asia and Europe. So, when is an Epiphone a "real" Epiphone? I also find it rather interesting that the guys who insist that Epiphone electrics are such an amazing bargain, often dismiss, discount or ignore other Asian guitars (Agile, for example) that are often an even better bargain than Epi's - they just don't have the name decal on the headstock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarxBros Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 Gibson owns Epiphone. Where THEY decide they'll make them' date=' is up to them. They're still Epiphones! They haven't been (non-Gibson) Epiphones, for over 50 years, now. So what?! ;>b I think Gibson is doing several things, as is the rest of Corporate America. Trying to make the most money, they can while producing a decent product, off-shore. Welcome to the Global Economy/Market. We (America) have done this, to ourselves. So, in previous used language..."Get Over It!" I for one, am glad that Epiphone is being made in China, now...in a Dedicated factory, so that Gibson can oversee the quality a bit better, and not be just buying Samick's with a different headstock. Those guitars are good quality, though, and owners of them, can be assured they'll do the job, just fine! I TOO..wish Epi, and every other brand product, was all Made In USA...but, that's not going to happen! Corporate greed, along with consumer demand for low prices, will contiually fuel, all of this. And, as long as we (the consumer) puts up with, and/or demands such...that's what we'll get. I get just as frustrated, as the next person, at a lot of what's going on, in this country/world. But, how (realistically) are you going to stop it? It's like a rolling snowball, now. What we need to do, is re-evaluate our priorities, across the board. Stop living beyond our means (Fat Chance...LOL), and trying to "keep up with the Jone's, Nakamura's, Chang's, or Magumba's." But, that's just "human nature," and will continue to be such, no doubt! As to Epiphones...if it says Epiphone, and was made BY Gibson's authorized plants, no matter where they are, they are Epiphones...period! "Fogeddaboudit!" ;>) CB[/quote']You probably believe a modern remake of the now classic Dynaco or Marantz audio products are really Dynaco and Marantz too eh? But but but...it SAYS Matantz on it. If I put a label on a can of red paint that says gold paint does that make it gold paint? Now we have Hagstrom, De Angelico and Gretsch guitars "reborn" too. Different bag of crap, same smell. You've drank the kool-aid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarxBros Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 Months ago I said that I thought the term "counterfeit Epiphone" was absolutely ludicrous' date='being that modern Epiphone-branded guitars are/were made in approximately 20 different factories in Asia and Europe. So, when is an Epiphone a "real" Epiphone? I also find it rather interesting that the guys who insist that Epiphone electrics are such an amazing bargain, often dismiss, discount or ignore other Asian guitars (Agile, for example) that are often an even better bargain than Epi's - they just don't have the name decal on the headstock.[/quote']Agiles have a much better quality/performance value that the "Epi's". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron G Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 Agiles have a much better quality/performance value that the "Epi's". ..and Agile vs. Epi is at least a reasonable comparison/argument in the first place, regardless of which side you're on. Asian knockoff vs. Asian knockoff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarxBros Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 ..and Agile vs. Epi is at least a reasonable comparison/argument in the first place' date=' regardless of which side you're on. Asian knockoff vs. Asian knockoff.[/quote']So much so that the word Agile was banned from the Epi forum for a long time. Probably will be again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 You probably believe a modern remake of the now classic Dynaco or Marantz audio products are really Dynaco and Marantz too eh? But but but...it SAYS Matantz on it. If I put a label on a can of red paint that says gold paint does that make it gold paint? Now we have Hagstrom' date=' De Angelico and Gretsch guitars "reborn" too. Different bag of crap, same smell. You've drank the kool-aid. [/quote'] Sorry, I can't drink "Kool-Aid"...I'm Diabetic! They are not the OLD "American" Epiphones, or Dynaco's or Marantz, or Whatever. Haven't been, for decades, now. WE know this! In your world, apparently, we'd buy only OLD American Epi's, etc. But, most of us cannot afford that...or, choose not to spend our money, that way. I will not argue about Gibson (USA) vs. Epiphone (Asia), from a strictly quality standpoint. I will only say, given what they are, where they are made, they're nice and good, to great quality, to boot. Agile's and others, are too! They are not Gibson's, or Martin's, or Fender (USA), etc. etc. But, SO WHAT?!! As to the Asian made "Gretschs".... they are actually BETTER than the old USA versions. I know...I have BOTH! I know you LOVE to start this Yeehaw, and fuel it, at every oportunity...that's fine, but you offer no (real) alternatives, or haven't as of yet! So, you want to be a "King Mixer," and "get everybody at each other," fine...have a ball... Doesn't and won't bother me, in the slightest! CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Strum Posted December 10, 2008 Author Share Posted December 10, 2008 Marx, All I know is Epi will be sending me, CB, Jeffery, Stan, and some others Casino Elitists for Christmas and you and Nelson will be getting the customary lump of coal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JefferySmith Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 I think a lot of us know what Epis are and what Gibsons are. They aren't the same. Epis are better than they should be, given their price. Gibsons are not as good as they should be, given their price. But Gibson are better than Epis. It just depends on how much one needs and how much one wants to spend. I think that if the Japan factory wanted to make guitars that beat Gibsons at a lower price, they could do so. But is Gibson making enough money to make Japan want to take that challenge? Most of us here aren't rich, so we can't collect Gibsons. A $400 Epiphone is better than a $400 Gibson (the latter is a unicorn). I'll go with what I can afford, because it is a great guitar for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Strum Posted December 10, 2008 Author Share Posted December 10, 2008 I think a lot of us know what Epis are and what Gibsons are. They aren't the same. Epis are better than they should be' date=' given their price. Gibsons are not as good as they should be, given their price. But Gibson are better than Epis. It just depends on how much one needs and how much one wants to spend. I think that if the Japan factory wanted to make guitars that beat Gibsons at a lower price, they could do so. But is Gibson making enough money to make Japan want to take that challenge? Most of us here aren't rich, so we can't collect Gibsons. A $400 Epiphone is better than a $400 Gibson (the latter is a unicorn). I'll go with what I can afford, because it is a great guitar for me.[/quote'] Now why didn't someone come up with that sooner, it could have avoided years of argument. Well said, but "you know who" will still have to challenge it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarxBros Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 Sorry' date=' I can't drink "Kool-Aid"...I'm Diabetic! They are not the OLD "American" Epiphones, or Dynaco's or Marantz, or Whatever. Haven't been, for decades, now. WE know this! In your world, apparently, we'd buy only OLD American Epi's, etc. But, most of us cannot afford that...or, choose not to spend our money, that way. I will not argue about Gibson (USA) vs. Epiphone (Asia), from a strictly quality standpoint. I will only say, given what they are, where they are made, they're nice and good, to great quality, to boot. Agile's and others, are too! They are not Gibson's, or Martin's, or Fender (USA), etc. etc. But, SO WHAT?!! As to the Asian made "Gretschs".... they are actually BETTER than the old USA versions. I know...I have BOTH! I know you LOVE to start this Yeehaw, and fuel it, at every oportunity...that's fine, but you offer no (real) alternatives, or haven't as of yet! So, you want to be a "King Mixer," and "get everybody at each other," fine...have a ball... Doesn't and won't bother me, in the slightest! CB [/quote']King mixer, seems to me you have more words to say in these threads than most other posters (not that much is being said with all those words)... that would probably qualify you as king of this here dung heap. And anyone that doubts my earlier claims of fret wear, do some real playing instead of your bedroom antics and you'll see soon enough the reality of the frets these guitars have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 Exactly, Jeffrey...and having both, as well as other brands, I appecriate the differences, and similarities...and the quality/dollar ratio, that Epiphone offers. With the Quingdao factory now, I think it will get even better! What they can and never will be, is OLD American, original Epiphones. But, it's ok..."I" never expected that, in the first place. OK, I'm going to Walmart now, and buy a "Maestro" Gibson....LOL! Later, CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Strum Posted December 10, 2008 Author Share Posted December 10, 2008 And anyone that doubts my earlier claims of fret wear' date=' do some real playing instead of your bedroom antics and you'll see soon enough the reality of the frets these guitars have.[/quote'] are you actually Eric Clapton and just come here between tours? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicester35 Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 You know' date=' it isn't a matter of me being offended because I've been in this fray more than once before and have gone up a lot more formidable minds than this group of jokers. Having Epiphone on the headstock is fine and those Samicks and those Peerless and those Unsung and other Korean-made Epiphones are all pretty nice guitars. No question, no qualification but what ultimately happens is that EPIPHONE name alone get invoked as some kind of qualifier of viability...once...many, many many years ago Epiphone at some market niches did compete on an equal basis...once Epiphones were actually made side by side with their Gibson cousins...those days are long gone but that perception remains and it's taken advantage of by those now selling Epiphones and Gibsons...people are also convinced that Asian products in terms of material and manufacturing quality is on an equal basis with the American but please tell me on what basis? The materials are different (cheaper), the hardware, electronics and finish (all cheaper) are different and if you think some twenty year Chinese kid assigned to run the CNC machine is the glowing example of ancient Chinese luthiery art, I'm sorry but you're ( rhetorical "you" not you personally) fukked up in the head beyond all reason....if a product is made to be cheaper at every turn how can possibly be even seriously considered along side a product which is made to a level of quality and not to a price niche?...there's no question that even the Gibson have very automated processes these days but there's still a considerable element of craftsmanship that goes into that guitar...there is NO element of craftsmanship required in the Chinese product. I love it when they say it doesn't matter where it's coming from...let's say you need a specialized heart pump mechanism...there's one that's made in the USA for two grand or one made in China for a few hundred...your life depends upon it and you only get one shot...which do you buy? Don't tell me it doesn't really matter...it only doesn't matter when one thinks they're getting some kind of Gibson at discount prices and all they have to do is get past the exploited, slave labor and the filthiest environment in the modern world....I can't do that...and fortunately for me I don't have to do that. Epiphone died in about 1952 and since then it's been a name and only a name living off that pre-1952 entity...you can buy a lot of different defunct product names and slap it on any crap you can get made cheaply in China and then wax about the "history" of that name...it's called marketing bullsh!t. Nelson[/quote'] Thanks for your detailed response Nelson. I suspect other people may take issue with some of your points, but in all honesty I don't know enough about Epiphones to dispute them. To me (I'm 32) "Epiphones" have always been an everyman's guitar...the type of thing which allowed you to save up a few packets from your crappy summer job in a bar as a college student, and have a new guitar when term started in September. I always liked them for that reason...I still like them a lot for that reason (especially the semis). Again, I don't know enough about luthiery, but I can't envisage there being no craftsmanship in the Chinese Epiphones. I know automation has taken over many processes, but there must still be some art in building the archtops and semis...As you say, a lot of them are "pretty nice guitars." I share your concerns about Chinese manufacturing (the environment, worker's rights etc). I think a lot of people just don't consider the provenance of the things they use. It's like eating veal. People try to avoid thinking about a milk-fed calf in a 6 foot square crate being slaughtered. I can't, so I don't eat it. But a trout my friend caught out of the reservoir, no problem...slap some butter on and grill it. One of the things that really pis*ed me off recently was the discovery that my old university won't stop buying collegiate gear, which may possibly be manufactured by virtue of child labour. So that's cool. Our 20 year olds should be encouraged to go to university, and whilst they are there they can show their collegiate spirit by purchasing a sweatshirt made by some 12 year old in Cambodia, working 11-hour days for $10 a week... Which is all by the by...I hope Epiphone properly look after their workers. I've seen the blurb and factory pictures on the website. I'm not naive - I know they'll show the best side, but I do think that they have a lot more respect for China and its people than some companies who choose Chinese-made products. I don't look at my Epiphone and think, "Hang on, someone's getting badly exploited here." I'm pretty comfortable with having bought it...I wouldn't own it otherwise. Incidentally, have you ever encountered one of these on your travels? It's a Gordon-Smith...built right here in England (in Manchester actually). http://www.gordonsmithguitars.com/ Obviously based on a Gibson...a bit more expensive than an Epiphone (but not too much more). They're not as good as Gibsons, whatever anyone claims. They're workmanlike, rather than flash, with some quirks (they always use a brass nut). I like them because they're honest. You're never going to look at their very plain take on a Les Paul and think that you're getting a beautiful Les Paul Standard. And besides, I'd love a British guitar... But getting hold of one is difficult. The factory has a small output, and the model I would want (a semi-hollow Gypsy) is as rare as rocking-horse sh*t... So in the meantime, as I can't afford (or justify) buying an ES-335, I'll probably pick up a Sheraton...and doubtless I'll be very happy with it![ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Lister Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 When did it stop being about the music for some of you? Forget labels. Does the guitar take you where you need to go? If yes, debate’s over. -- Why not black tape your headstocks for public performance -- I do so that everyone is focused on what is played and not what it’s played on. -- I am secure in knowing what I own and why. Validation or critique by anyone else is meaningless. Nelson and MarxBros illogical “real EPI” arguments have real world significance only to collectors. In their world Fords, Chevys, etc., etc. stopped being Fords, Chevys whenever any non-USA made component was installed or a modernization change was made to parts or production. By their reasoning, any Ford other than a model A is crap and not worth buying. If they hate EPI's, fine, they won't buy them and the rest of us will have more to select from. Most shoppers have enough sense to check more than one source for facts/opinion, so outright FALSE statements like those posted about fret wear shows the bias or lack of knowledge of the poster. Hit every BLUE NOTE baaaby..., I'm going to play on:-" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarxBros Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 so outright FALSE statements like those posted about fret wear shows the bias or lack of knowledge of the poster. I've probably had more Epi's across my workshop table than you've ever had a chance to look at, let alone play. Continue on, your ignorance amuses me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Lister Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 I've probably had more Epi's across my workshop table than you've ever had a chance to look at' date=' let alone play. [/quote']Meaningless. Like a bad doctor saying, "I’ve had more patients than...." Hit every BLUE NOTE baaaby..., I'm going to play on:-" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie brown Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 King mixer' date=' seems to me you have more words to say in these threads than most other posters (not that much is being said with all those words)... that would probably qualify you as king of this here dung heap. .[/quote'] Well, if this is such a "dung heap," why are you here?! Maybe you're a fly, looking for a taste? Shall we stop this, now? CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schtang Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 King mixer' date=' seems to me you have more words to say in these threads than most other posters (not that much is being said with all those words)... that would probably qualify you as king of this here dung heap. And anyone that doubts my earlier claims of fret wear, do some real playing instead of your bedroom antics and you'll see soon enough the reality of the frets these guitars have.[/quote'] I have never come across you before on this forum - but you are the real "idiot of Basel" are you not?. I am sure your playing skills are lacking because you spend so much time bagging the tools of our trade. I am solid body Gibson guy but give me a Sheraton II over a 335 any day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.