davidg3333 Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 This Wiki article may help. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahogany Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iansmitchell Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 THe special IIs, with exception of cherry red, are plywood anyway. But they use a dark wood that looks like sapele(african mahogany), grown in either the phillipines or indonesia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flmason Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 [ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattt0192 Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Elsewhere a poster mentioned that Epi's don't use "real" mahogany of African or Honduran varieties but some "mahogany like Indonesian" wood. i heard that it is real mahogany but it is weaker than your honduran/american/african varieties. someone told me since it is raised in asia they use the wood before it is of age or the wood is wetter because of how the soil is. but you never know if it's another type of wood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nelson Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 What this article leaves out (I've done some research on mahogany) is that when the old forest Honduran became protected and less available' date=' plantations to grow it in Africa were started. Between us, I really don't want a guitar made out of materials from Africa. Thinking of the problems of Africa while playing ruins it for me. So in reality, what I want to confirm is deny is, "Are there africa sourced materials in my guitars?" Those that do, will be sold or trashed. [/quote'] But the higher end guitar makers like Gibson and Martin have seen this coming since the CITES treaties of the 90's and have stockpiled massive amounts of Honduras Mahogany(Swietenia macrophylla) and other Swietenia varieties after seeing what happened with Brazilian Rosewood after 1970. What this means is that the future price of guitars with these woods is going to seriously rise but magically the manufacturers will always come up with enough wood stock to make short runs of VERY expensive guitars with these woods. The more modest guitars aren't going to have any woods from this hemisphere. Khaya, a/k/a "African Mahogany"-same family, different genus- is close enough to take over for the Honduras Mahogany and they're currently creating plantations growing Swietenia varieties in Indonesia, not Africa.. but in guitars like Epiphone you're going to get species from places like the Philippines that resemble mahoganies but aren't even closely related to true mahogany. Saele is grown through out Africa and is also a good mahogany substitute. Nato is from Asia and is a cheaper substitute. You need to understand that there are over fifty countries in Africa and not all are trouble spots like the Sudan and Somalia. It would be very wrong to boycott the economy of a free and democratic nation based upon such a broad-brushed and erroneous judgment. Enjoy your guitar...which is probably made in China...which really sets my hair on fire... Nelson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricochet Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 While there is a botanical relation between Phillipine/Indonesian mahogany(Toona) used in Asian budget guitars and the famed Honduras mahogany(Swietenia) used in old Gibsons, the timber trade designation for Philippine Mahogany will often include Lauan/Luan and Meranti(both red or white variety) which are really species of the Shorea genus of the Dipterocarpaceae family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
generation zero Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 What this article leaves out (I've done some research on mahogany) is that when the old forest Honduran became protected and less available' date=' plantations to grow it in Africa were started. Between us, I really don't want a guitar made out of materials from Africa. Thinking of the problems of Africa while playing ruins it for me. So in reality, what I want to confirm is deny is, "Are there africa sourced materials in my guitars?" Those that do, will be sold or trashed. [/quote'] For the record, I would gladly pay the shipping cost for any guitar you plan to "trash" because of where the wood it is made of was grown. Wouldn't even mind reimbursing you for your time involved in shipping your "trash" to me, LOL... Got any pics of the guitar in question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nelson Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 To be honest I haven't used this guitar since I bought it' date=' so haven't been able to enjoy it. My "day job" in IT has been up and down for years, so I've been in a personal "recession" for years, LOL! I have 8+ other instruments also boxed up and waiting for "the day" I get to set up a decent personal studio. As for the africa thing... well I dumped a BMW 3 series that was made in S. Africa after I found it out. Lost 10K+ U.S. dollars on a car that I drove maybe 400 miles. So trust me, tossing an Epi in this price range for peace of mind is no problem, LOL! For me (this is a personal thing, obviously) I really don't want to possess anything from Africa or the Mid-east for that matter. Seems everything that people fight over, religions, oil, etc. etc. etc. comes from over there. The resulting malaise has to be physically present in anything from over there. Unfortunately you can't get away from it. 66% of world's chocolate, from there. A good bit of the tea, 80% of the world's Acacia gum (used in food processing), 90% of the world's vanilla comes from Madagascar, 10-15% of BMW 3 series is assembled in Pretoria to sneak them in under the AGOA, as are Mercedes c300's. I believe Toyota is considering the same for their lower priced cars and so on. [/quote'] But....Africa is a very large continent and I'm sorry but you don't make any sense at all. I can see protesting a specific country or even a company for moving jobs away or flooding your economy with cheap goods but the whole cloth stance against an entire continent? I think you need to learn a bit more about Africa. Your thinking doesn't make sense. Nelson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nelson Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Hmm... sounds interesting. I own an early 70's Gibson Flying V. They say you can tell it's Honduran Mahogany because of the mineral streaks in it. Never have seen those streaks in any other "mahogany" wood guitars I've owned' date=' including an Alvarez. Picking apart botanical classifications vrs. marketing names is a nightmare. Consider that "korina" is "african limba wood" and yet others say it's "the real african mahogany" and it's not even a dark wood. Apparently this is common in botany though. Was researching corn (the food) this eve, and even that's not simple, LOL! Of course, what's lacking on all this discussion is, the answer to "how do we know what the asian factories Epi contracts to are actually using. I posed this question to Gibson customer support years ago and they were unable to answer. Hiding behind, "they're outsourced, we don't know". I was hoping this had changed. What really astounds me though, is how much folks here seem to know on the subject. Can anyone point to a valid source of info on what Epi and/or it's sub-contractors are actually using? [/quote'] I hate to tell you this but that V from the 70's is probably African Limba a/k/a Korina. if it has mineral streaking....and there's black..and there's white limba and the wood is known for the mineral streaking...Mahogany doesn't usually have any "mineral streaks" and can range from reddish blond to chocolate brown...the "typical" cherry red mahogany color perception has resulted from most people being familiar with the cherry-stained version used in furniture that's intended to imitate the more-costly cherry wood furniture. As I said previously, Khaya is African Mahogany. It's in the same botanical family as the South American species but a different genus. Gibson currently "owns" a dedicated factory in China and has had and has some contract factory production in Korea and some of these Korean factories are "Peerless", "Unsung, Samick and Saien. Some guitars are made by Samick in Indonesia. The Japanese "Elitist" guitars were made by Fuji-gen Gakki and Terada and prior to 1987 by Matsumoku which also makes Aria and other brands.... Nelson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antwhi2001 Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 You won't get a straight answer out of Gibson about the types of wood used by their Asian factory or their various subcontrators. They like to keep their options open regarding material cost and availability, and they may change from year to year and factory to factory. I assume Gibson QC personnel approve batches/types of wood but otherwise leave it to the contractors. When I first saw your post I assumed you were concerned about the ethics of non-sustainable forestry practices. Now I see you have some sort of irrational phobia of what you see as dirt and that it is affecting your ability to live a normal life. Does your attitude also extend to people from Africa or the Middle East too? Do you imagine they are "contaminated" in some way? You say that you could cope with Indonesian woods, so how come? Do you think Indonesia is inherently cleaner than the whole continent of Africa?? I hope you can get some form of counselling or therapy to help you get over this. A visit to such countries might do you a lot of good, I suspect that you don't have lot of knowledge about their cultures. Of course, as an American you might not be too welcome yourself, what with all the other Americans Mr Bush has sent into the Middle East already. But back to guitars. I doubt that you will be able to buy any guitar that doesn't contain some wood, plastic or metal originating from one of those "dirty" countries you have decided not to like. Or a car. Or a TV set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ef_in_fla Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 So while I lived there' date=' I ordered nothing via Fedex, etc. I.e. things that would've been shipped in via that particular airport.[/quote'] Wow dude, no offense but that sounds pretty paranoid. I can't imagine living life being so worried about this sort of thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricochet Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 I own an early 70's Gibson Flying V. They say you can tell it's Honduran Mahogany because of the mineral streaks in it. Never have seen those streaks in any other "mahogany" wood guitars I've owned' date=' including an Alvarez. Picking apart botanical classifications vrs. marketing names is a nightmare. Consider that "korina" is "african limba wood" and yet others say it's "the real african mahogany" and it's not even a dark wood. Apparently this is common in botany though. Was researching corn (the food) this eve, and even that's not simple, LOL! [/quote'] I think any wood will have mineral streaks/flecks to some extent. Common in botany? I beg to differ. A botanical classification has nothing to gain designating Luan or Meranti as Phillipine Mahogany. As opposed to the timber-trade... Sorry, can't help you with the corn... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattt0192 Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 I was under the impression that some of the african countries were extremely rich and i was also under the impression that south africa was very similar to some of the European coutries.... why don't we just live in a hermetically sealed bubble in a metal box so those "dirty africans" and their "depressing lives" and "filthy goods" don't hurt us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nelson Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 I think any wood will have mineral streaks/flecks to some extent. Common in botany? I beg to differ. A botanical classification has nothing to gain designating Luan or Meranti as Phillipine Mahogany. As opposed to the timber-trade... Sorry' date=' can't help you with the corn... [/quote'] I know a babe in Iowa...I'll bet she can tell you more than you'll ever want to know about corn...I can tell you how to cook it in the microwave..she also knows about bulls and cows and can tell you the breeds and the idiosyncrasies of the breeds and of both genders...I know sirloin is better than round but can be dry and round is better than hamburger and strip steaks can be tough if over-cooked...rib eyes grill better and you never want filets too over-cooked or you'll get hockey pucks...the Iowa babe is fantastic...just a little schizophrenic...she's great really..I thought there's pigs right? NOOOOO there's a lots of kinds of pigs. What have I learned from this woman that's the most important? That I don't belong out in the bloody sticks with cows and corn so far away from civilization you can't get a pizza delivered. Farm livin' ain't for me unless Hungry Howies wants to open a shop near by. Nelson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitmore Willy Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 The epiphone L.P. specials I have seen very in discription from dealer to dealer. Some say mahogany body but most list them as basswood. (which I tend to believe) The necks are usually listed as mahogany. Although I have never seen a cross section of one I would not be surprised if they are a basswood laminated body. (basswood being a N. American name for Asian linden.) Even the Epi website lists it as basswood. To me, it is like discussing maple. There are so many kinds. Canadian hard rock is a quality wood, yet many types of maple are no more than large "weeds". Aside from the L.P. Special, the Studio, Standard and Custom list their bodies as mahogny. Most of what I have read leads me to believe the majority of the mahogany used in Epis is probably Indonesian. Considering that the Republic of Indonesia consists of 17,508 islands; Who knows what that means? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitmore Willy Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 But of course' date=' it's easier for most folks to drink beer, take prozac, or whatever, LOL![/quote'] Beer is good....but what kind and more importantly....where do the ingredients come from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitmore Willy Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Bow hair = butt hair? I may be sitting on a good thing here. My wife has often called me a horse's ***. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antwhi2001 Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 If the entire continent of Africa, and the Middle East region fall short of your standards, I would say at least three quarters of the worlds' countries should be on your embargo list - including Indonesia, and parts of Europe. I wonder how many African countries you can even name? Such strong convictions, and such little knowledge. You can't go by mass-media, especially commercially-funded mass media. Something else you can't do is go through your life avoiding all contact with substances originating from all those countries. Labelling on products is not definitive enough for you to know all the materials used in the manufacturing processes. The largest producer of raw materials for medecines is India - are they on your list? If so, you won't be using much medecine. Still, we've already established that you are outside rational norms, so there's not much point in debating it. You'll either end up institutionalised or subsisting entirely on your own home-grown produce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiggy Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 When I emailed Gibson customer service re the wood in my Epi LP (the one in my avatar) they came back with the following info: Body - Nato (Sometimes known as Indonesian or Asian Mahogany) Cap - Maple with 1/16th inch (approx) flame maple veneer Neck - Nato Back - Honduran mahogany (thicker veneer - about 1/8th) Fretboard - Rosewood (unspecified source) They were more than happy to tell me exactly what each bit was - don't know if I was just lucky! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricochet Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 When I emailed Gibson customer service re the wood in my Epi LP (the one in my avatar) they came back with the following info: Body - Nato (Sometimes known as Indonesian or Asian Mahogany) Neck - Nato I suspect this a timber-trade designation for something resembling mahogany, because it's definitely not part of the mahogany-family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostindesert Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 LOL, funny thread, the poster has lots of laughter. Peter lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitmore Willy Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 From wikipedia (for what it's worth) Nato wood, also known as Eastern Mahogany, but actually from Mora excelsa or Mora gonggrijpii trees, is a softer hardwood, used primarily on acoustic guitar necks. It can be compared to mahogany in terms of sound and appearance, but it is also commonly dubbed a "budget wood". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricochet Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 From wikipedia (for what it's worth) Interesting...and FWIW indeed. I find it particularly interesting(as in weird) how Wikipedia mentions it being used on Epiphone Les Paul Standards and Customs, when Epiphone AFAICR never made any mention of what type of mahogany they used, opting for a more general description like "mahogany"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiggy Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Actually the Wikipedia description of Nato being dubbed a budget wood isn't actually true as it is sometimes found in quite high end acoustic instruments and is well known as a good quality tonewood. In fact it has a tonal quality which is very similar to Honduran mahogany (although obviously not exactly the same) and weighs about the same This actually was the gist of an argument I had with Epiphone/Gibson at the time in that, as Nato can be both a very good looking wood and is an excellent tonewood, why dress it up as something which it really isn't. Also just discovered it is a South American hardwood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostindesert Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Did Yamaha used nato on their early acoustic guitars, or still is using nato? The ones i've played all sounded fine with that typical Yamaha sound. No Martin or Gibson, but fine budget guitars. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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