No tone on my Epi G400!

[DMC59]

I bought my used Epi G400 in ebony from GC in mid June and it is in excellent cosmetic condition. It is my fist guitar at age 51. Anyway, the tone pots do not work at all and adjusting the tone thru my Fender practice amp isn't enough. I took it to a luthier yesterday who opened up and played it a bit at no charge and he gave me his impressions. First of all, he said the wiring/soldering were solid. He said the pickups were pretty quiet (I know that compared to my daughter's Squier HSS strat)but that the ?? thing-a-ma-jig ?? (sorry, not an electronics guy) was a 500K and should be a 1000. He advised me this a good beginning guitar -- he liked the neck -- and if I just used it for awhile as is with a darker sound, I'd be ahead to sell it a bit later and put the money toward a better guitar. He advised I would never get my money out of it by upgrading all the electronics & to just wait and by a better guitar as I become a more proficient player. Having read the forum, I understand some of you my take offense at his advice, but I do not -- to me it is just a point of view and some of his points are well taken. HOWEVER, tho I am just working on chord progressions at this point, I really want to play with tone. So this no tone business is not acceptable to me. Realistically, will I be over my head if I buy a soldering iron, some upgrades from say, StewMac, and use my determination and high standards to do the upgrades my self? I really bought this to learn with, not become a guitar tech, but I want tone control! Or should I sell/trade it??

[Darren W]

Go for it I say DMC.

 

Take your time to check out the web and this forum for info on geet mods.

 

Have a look at sites like seymour duncan (they make pickups if you dont know the name) on their site they have a great page on various wiring diagrams.

 

If you plan you attack you wont go wrong.

 

If you do any mods keep us all on the forum posted on the results

[animalfarm]

Generally, a G-400 IS considered to be an acceptable guitar. The

Volume and Tone potentiomters are supposed to be 500K Ohms. It comes

stock with HOTCH(G) Bridge and 57CH(G) Neck pickups, which are actually

quite nice - I use them in project gits all the time.

 

In a nutshell, you're saying when you hit a chord, then turn the tone pots

up and down there is NO difference AT ALL in the sound??? Just trying to

determine if the pots are defective or miswired. Perhaps even just in need of

a cleaning. Do you play with the 3-way switch in the middle position only, or are you

selecting bridge/neck with the no tone change problem? It IS possible for pots to go

bad, but both at once is a bit unusual.

 

Replacing the pots is not hard, just takes a little soldering skill (and patience).

 

Are you able to post a good, clear pic or two of the wiring inside the control

cavity? Your Luthier saw nothing out of the ordinary, then?

 

The folks here can point you to many links/sites for parts, how-to, etc. Just need to

know exactly what the git "ain't" doing...

[i Can Tuna Guitar]

If the wiring was solid, the damn tone pots would probably work. Since you have the urge to mod, I'd suggest you buy a reasonably-priced kit that includes the pots, caps, jack and switch.

 

For example: http://www.guitarfetish.com/Complete-Les-Paul-Upgrade-Electrical-Component-Kit_p_179.html

 

For short money you can get your G400 working right, and learn something at the same time.

 

IMO, a G400, modded or otherwise, is a very nice guitar. Don't listen to gear snobs; draw your own conclusions over time.

[Whitmore Willy]

DMC,

 

+1 on all above.

Just voicing my vote.

G400's are good guitars.

Pots are inexpensive. Wires are inexpensive. Caps are inexpensive. Toggle switches and jacks are inexpensive.

Wiring diagrams are free and plentiful.

You can always replace the pups later (or not) when you have a better idea what you want the guitar to sound like.

 

Even if you weren't planning on doing it at first, it can be fun and educational

if you are into that kind of thing.

 

Besides, if you play long enough something is always going wrong from time to time. Nothing worse than having

to take it to someone else, pay out too much money for a repair and wonder if you will even get the guitar

back in one piece.

 

Willy

[audiomitch]

Generally, a G-400 IS considered to be an acceptable guitar. The

Volume and Tone potentiomters are supposed to be 500K Ohms.

 

Exactly. Sounds like you need to find a different "guitar guy" to look at it. Why couldn't fix it again? He didn't know what was wrong with it? Not an encouraging sign. Off the top of my head I'd say it was a "cold solder" which is a badly soldered connection. In any case, it's a pretty easy fix and you shouldn't have to replace all the electronics to get it working again.

[jerrymac]

He advised me this a good beginning guitar -- he liked the neck -- and if I just used it for awhile as is with a darker sound, I'd be ahead to sell it a bit later and put the money toward a better guitar. He advised I would never get my money out of it by upgrading all the electronics & to just wait and by a better guitar as I become a more proficient player. Having read the forum, I understand some of you my take offense at his advice, but I do not...

 

You should, that's gotta be the worst advice I ever heard. It's just wrong on so many levels...

 

First of all, there's no need for you to upgrade your guitar. A G-400 is a good semi-professional guitar, a G-310 would be considered a beginner's guitar. And since this is your first guitar, I assume you're not recording in the studio any time in the near future. There are plenty of forum members who gig regularly with G-400s or comparable quality guitars. In fact, one our members plays guitar for Donnie & Marie show in Vegas, and he uses several imported Epiphones.

 

Now if you said you wanted to put $200 worth of Gibson pickups in your $250 used guitar, I might agree with him. But you're talking about a couple of pots. It's not worth it to spend fifty or sixty bucks to get YOUR guitar to sound the way YOU want it to sound???

 

From reading and re-reading your post, it's not the tone that bothers you as much as it is the tone controls don't do anything. Going from 500K to 1M pots is probably not the right solution to that particular problem, though that could result in a brighter overall tone for you. Volume & Tone controls (Pots) come in Audio and Linear taper. Not to get too technical, but if you have a linear volume control, 1/2 way will be 1/2 volume. But the human ear doesn't hear in a straight line. Audio taper controls emulate the way the human ear perceives sound so 1/2 way sounds like 1/2 volume, but if you measure it, it's not actually 1/2 volume. Volume controls are almost always Audio taper (usually marked with an A, Linear pots are marked with a B), but tone controls can be either. If your tone pot seems to do nothing most of the way and then changes abruptly at the end, consider changing the taper.

 

It's hard to advise you without actually examining the guitar, but before doing anything, I'd take a good look at your amp. Is it one of those 10W jobbies with a 6" speaker??? I wouldn't judge the tone of your guitar based on a small practice amp, and definitely would start doing mods based on that. Do you have access to a good amp, maybe your daughter's??? Or go down to the local guitar store and ask to try out some amps, and bring your guitar. That will give you a much better idea of the way it actually sounds.

 

Buying a good amp will have far more impact on tone than changing pickups, electronics or any other mod. And even if you bought a $2500 Gibson, it's not going to sound any better if you're plugging it into a little tiny practice amp.

 

Good luck

[DMC59]

Thanks for all the input everyone. I feel somewhat encouraged to do this myself, tho I want to spend my time practicing as opposed to having my one & only guitar out of commission while I upgrade. The guitar tech I used claimed to have years of experience and can clearly play. My sense was that while he wants to make a buck he is honest. I offered him money for his time, but he refused saying just come back in the future. He said the wiring looked solid. I felt he was trying to be tactful and honest at the same time. To respond to animalfarm -- no the tone pots aren't working at all. Certainly I could pursue this luthier to fix/replace the tone pots whether he thinks it's worth it or not -- ultimately it is MY decision. He didn't really criticize the pickup, basically saying they might be louder with better pots. I'll check out that link you posted, i Can Tuna Guitar and keep the forum posted.

[DMC59]

You should, that's gotta be the worst advice I ever heard. It's just wrong on so many levels...

 

First of all, there's no need for you to upgrade your guitar. A G-400 is a good semi-professional guitar, a G-310 would be considered a beginner's guitar.

 

It's hard to advise you without actually examining the guitar, but before doing anything, I'd take a good look at your amp. Is it one of those 10W jobbies with a 6" speaker??? I wouldn't judge the tone of your guitar based on a small practice amp, and definitely would start doing mods based on that. Do you have access to a good amp, maybe your daughter's??? Or go down to the local guitar store and ask to try out some amps, and bring your guitar. That will give you a much better idea of the way it actually sounds.

 

Buying a good amp will have far more impact on tone than changing pickups, electronics or any other mod. And even if you bought a $2500 Gibson, it's not going to sound any better if your plugging it into a little tiny practice amp.

 

Good luck

 

Thanks, House Band. The amp is just a Fender 15G. To my untrained ear it has a good clean sound. My 15 y/o daughter's new Squier HSS Strat sounds nearly twice as loud on it.

[jerrymac]

Thanks, House Band. The amp is just a Fender 15G. To my untrained ear it has a good clean sound. My 15 y/o daughter's new Squier HSS Strat sounds nearly twice as loud on it.

 

Here's the differential:

 

Low Output Volume

Both tone controls are N/G

 

It's not auto immune, and it's definitely not Lupus.

 

No way a G-400 would be 1/2 the volume of a Strat. If anything, Humbuckers are higher output pickups and should be louder.

 

Now here's the kicker, neither tone control works. One shot tone control, unlikely but it can happen. The odds against both going bad, astronomical.

 

So, I'm left to conclude that someone messed around with the wiring, that would explain both the low output and the bad tone pots.

 

Your tech should have found the problem instantly. He knew the tone pots didn't work, so you start there. One wire from the Volume control, 1 capacitor and ground. That's it!!! If there's a problem, you'll see it immediately. If the problem's not obvious, then you get out the ohm meter, check for breaks, continuity, make sure everything's grounded... There's only four pots, a switch, a jack & the pickups. It's not rocket science, you should have the answer in 5 minutes tops. The fact that he didn't find the problem coupled with his it's not worth fixing attitude doesn't give me a lot of confidence in his abilities.

 

If you could attach a photo of the controls, I'd be happy to look at it and see what I see.

[animalfarm]

Thanks, House Band. The amp is just a Fender 15G. To my untrained ear it has a good clean sound. My 15 y/o daughter's new Squier HSS Strat sounds nearly twice as loud on it.

 

You have a GOOD GUITAR - don't let anyone tell you differently!!! You just seem

to have issues which CAN be fixed!

 

This is an intriguing issue. I'm going to ask a couple of qestions, then post

a link and a pic, mostly for your benefit to have more knowledge before you proceed.

A good tech can change your tone pots out in 30 mins, including the time to put

protection over the finish as to not drip solder on it.

 

The degraded pup output you mention - I'm hoping it's just dirty pots interfering

with the signal, or a crappy cable?

 

Q: Are you playing on clean only? If you switch over to distortion, do the tone knobs

still not work? One of my amps is a 15W Marshall, and the tone change is very noticable

in distorted mode.

Q: Do you have the "gear" to do a solder job? 25W+ Iron, electronics solder, etc?

Q: Have you tried Cleaning the pots internally yet? There is a sub-section in the

"DO-IT-Yourself" thread in the EPI Lounge called "Electrical Hum/Buzz/Scratchy pots",

which addresses cleaning scratchy sounding pots. Read it, try it! Dirty pots cause all kinds

of weird problems.

 

OK, time for links and pics:

 

Guitarfetish website, electronics section.I use "ALPHA" pots all the time, some folks like

"CTS" pots. The ALPHAs will drop right in with no problem. Only $2.95 each - I order 20 at a time.

Your current Vol/Tone knobs will fit right back on with no problem.

 

http://www.guitarfetish.com/Full-Sized-500K-Audio-Pot--Super-Quality_p_274.html

 

Pics:

 

This a "Seymour Duncan" digaram of a typical 2 humbucker wiring install for a git

with 2 vols, 2 tones, 1 3-way switch (like your G-400). This shows a 4 wire pup,

just ignore the two wires that are "tied together" (red and white). The Green and bare wires

are actually the lone "ground " wire on your EPI pups.

 

All you're concerned about is the wiring to the pots, and the grounds.

This is the reason I asked for pics of your wiring in the control cavity - wanted to

"eyeball" it myself. If you don't have a photo-hosting site yet, go once again to the EPI lounge

"DIY" thread - at the top are a couple of tutorials on how to do it in the "Posting Pictures" section.

 

[AS90]

If you do a bit of research and get everything set in your head, your G400 will only be 'out of commission' for an hour! Pots and caps are easy, go for it.

[Whitmore Willy]

When you look inside the control cavity in the back of the guitar:

Are the wires connected via a plastic multi-pin quick disconnect?

 

Just curious as it does sound like a simple wiring problem. (As has been suggested)

 

Willy

[RobinTheHood]

IMO, this luthier gave you the runaround because he didnt want to be bothered with your guitar. House is right...the G400 is a good semi-pro guitar. The G-310 and Specials are beginner guitars. This luthier of yours is full of crap. Dont go back to him if you can help it.

[DMC59]

 

OK, time for links and pics:

 

Guitarfetish website, electronics section.I use "ALPHA" pots all the time, some folks like

"CTS" pots. The ALPHAs will drop right in with no problem. Only $2.95 each - I order 20 at a time.

Your current Vol/Tone knobs will fit right back on with no problem.

 

http://www.guitarfetish.com/Full-Sized-500K-Audio-Pot--Super-Quality_p_274.html

 

Pics:

 

This a "Seymour Duncan" digaram of a typical 2 humbucker wiring install for a git

with 2 vols, 2 tones, 1 3-way switch (like your G-400). This shows a 4 wire pup,

just ignore the two wires that are "tied together" (red and white). The Green and bare wires

are actually the lone "ground " wire on your EPI pups.

 

All you're concerned about is the wiring to the pots, and the grounds.

This is the reason I asked for pics of your wiring in the control cavity - wanted to

"eyeball" it myself. If you don't have a photo-hosting site yet, go once again to the EPI lounge

"DIY" thread - at the top are a couple of tutorials on how to do it in the "Posting Pictures" section.

 

Thanks Animalfarm -- I feel ral encuraged to tackle this myself!

[i Can Tuna Guitar]

DMC59:

 

Relax and enjoy the process. I recently got a used Squier Strat that had such bad electronics that anything you touched caused major static and/or sound cutoff. I replaced the stuff with a Guitar Fetish kit, and it took me a couple of hours taking my sweet time to be sure I was soldering the correct wire to the correct post. When all done, everything worked perfectly, and you can imagine my pride. And don't worry too much about the resistance values - they produce only minor differences. For example, the Strat had 500k pots (that's right, Affinity Strats have 500k pots), but the kit came with 250k, which is what most Strats use. The guitar sounds fine, there's plenty of treble.

[DMC59]

i Can Tuna - Yeah, if I can relax and enjoy the process it should go just fine. Tho the Epi SG is my only guitar and want it to work out. If this goes as well as I anticipate, it will encourage me to look for a run down Strat or Tele & upgrade that as well -- a true project.

[KX36]

The G400 is a perfectly good guitar for all amateurs, beginners and intermediates. Serious professionals might want to spend the extra £1000 for the tiny difference that having a Gibson makes, but if you want an SG style guitar short of a Gibson, there's nothing better than the G400. It's definately worth fixing because if you wait until you are good enough for a Gibson, you're not going to have tone controls for at least 5 years.

 

There is definately an electrical issue. Did the tech use a multimeter or just eyeball it? Did even remove the cable tie that holds the mass of wires together? Undo the cable tie and get a multimeter and test every connection. test the backs of all the pots to eachother and to the ground (not the tip) on the far end of a cable plugged into the jack.

 

To clarify a post above, the stock pots in modern Epiphones are Alpha brand, so of course they will work as replacements.

 

To correct another post above:

Use LINEAR volume and LOG (AUDIO) tone controls. That's the way Epiphone and Gibson do it stock and I spent ages doing my own scientific experiments and that's the conclusion I came to. (There are circumstances to use all log pots, which I consider in my blog, basically if you want a natural sounding volume change when tone=10 and don't mind having a very uneven volume change when tone < 10)

[amx05462]

had the same problem with my 56 gold top. i completely re did it accept for the pickups for around a hundred bucks go to the gibson site to get the wiring diagram thats what i did. i changed the caps to 033. it was a bit too dark with the origonals.

[jerrymac]

To correct another post above:

Use LINEAR volume and LOG (AUDIO) tone controls. That's the way Epiphone and Gibson do it stock and I spent ages doing my own scientific experiments and that's the conclusion I came to. (There are circumstances to use all log pots, which I consider in my blog, basically if you want a natural sounding volume change when tone=10 and don't mind having a very uneven volume change when tone < 10)

 

To correct the correction:

 

Neither is right or wrong, it's a matter of preference. The only reason I originally mentioned it was because I suspected that the OP felt that there was little change in the tone control until the end. When he said the tech suggested 1M pots, I was telling the OP that it would be more likely a taper issue than a value issue, and that changing the taper on the tone controls (either way) might suit him better. But when the OP mentioned in a later post that there was no change at all, it became evident that it wasn't a taper problem but rather a wiring issue.

 

While Gibson now uses 300K linear taper parts for most of their current models, they did use 500K audio tapers in the past. I believe they now use 500K Audios on the Historic models to be more accurate, although they did use 300K Linears for a while. Plus I've heard that the Gibson Audio taper pots more linear than the generic Audio taper pots, kind of a hybrid so to speak.

[DMC59]

To correct the correction:

 

While Gibson now uses 300K linear taper parts for most of their current models, they did use 500K audio tapers in the past. I believe they now use 500K Audios on the Historic models to be more accurate, although they did use 300K Linears for a while. Plus I've heard that the Gibson Audio taper pots more linear than the generic Audio taper pots, kind of a hybrid so to speak.

 

I'm looking at the upgrade kit suggested by i Can Tuna Guitar above -- http://www.guitarfet...-Kit_p_179.html -- this seems to be in my price range after I buy a 25W soldering iron, etc...

[jerrymac]

I'm looking at the upgrade kit suggested by i Can Tuna Guitar above -- http://www.guitarfet...-Kit_p_179.html -- this seems to be in my price range after I buy a 25W soldering iron, etc...

 

Excellent. If you have any questions, feel free to ask. Besides the iron and solder, get some rosin flux. Also, a cheap little ohm meter comes in handy to check your connections. If they don't have it at Guitar Fetish, you can get all your soldering needs at your local Radio Shack.

 

Good luck...

[RobinTheHood]

Besides the iron and solder, get some rosin flux...

...and a desoldering braid.

[jerrymac]

...and a desoldering braid.

 

Thanks for adding that. I always overlook thing like that until I need it!!!

 

Guitar Fetish has it for $1.39 - Great price They have solder for the same price.

[RobinTheHood]

Yeah, me too. It was still fresh in my head from a soldering thread earlier this week. lol.