I bought a fake Epi… almost

[james_edward]

To continue with my last thread about anyone having an EE07 Black custom LP and my attempting to buy one…

 

I went to see the guitar in question yesterday, here are couple of pictures I snapped while checking it out – sorry about the lack of pictures and poor focus on the body shot, I rushed them and didn’t take enough.

 

 

 

 

I have to say I’ve read everything there is to read on fake Epi’s, especially related to Custom models and I figure I can spot a fake within seconds, so when I saw this guitar, and ran down my check list it seemed like the pretty much the real deal.

 

Two things did stand out;

 

-The knobs were almost right parallel with the neck, but the lower two were not quite right. In the end they were no different really, than the ½ dozen Epi’s around my place, all of which are legit.

 

-The screws on the backside covers had heads to big for the countersunk holes in the plastic plates and they didn’t sit down all the way.

 

Other than those two items it seemed fine, I thought about it, played it a while and decided it was good…and the deal was done (a straight trade for an LP standard honeyburst plus top).

 

Then I opened the back cover over the pots and HOLY F**K it looks like the body is MDF – I look again, start scraping away the black paint on the cavity wall with a blade, and where the bridge ground comes through a chuck of mdf comes off – confirmed – it’s a fake – body is made of mdf.

 

So now I’m there with the kid I’m doing this deal with (30 years younger than me), and his father (who claim they bought it on Kijij and “didn’t know”), and I’ve driven an hour to get there. and I’m pissed.

 

I really wanted to smash that custom to pieces right there (to have a look to see what the neck was made of and blow off some steam at the same time) but I just left because they kept insisting they “didn’t know” it was fake (although the father only said it in Chinese… go figure)

 

IMO the counterfeiters have literally perfected their art – we have a legit 04 LP Custom here at home and the two were almost identical – even down to the little details;

 

Serial number – EE is sized correctly

 

Headstock – inlay good, positioned properly, tuners in right place

 

Body – exact match shape and size wise to Epi, knob placement is good, pickguard shape and screw location good, jackplate good, hardware good.

 

In short here’s my theory on where the fakes are made, and I hope I don’t get booted for this –

 

This fake was so good that I think it was made, while our good and trusting Epiphone company supervisors and owners were sleeping (literally, no joke here, at night while they are asleep) – right in an Epi factory.

 

The fake body and neck are exactly the same size and shape as real Epi’s, so close in fact that I would dare to say it was cut on the same machine from the same cnc code as the real Epi’s – as in the night shift is bringing mdf blanks into Epi factories and cutting bodies on the cnc while the good and trusting Epi overlords are away.

 

The headstock inlay is so good it must have come direct from Epi or the same supplier Epi uses – IMO Epi employees that can’t be trusted, the same ones who make real Epi’s, are also making the fakes. Either right in the Epi factory or with parts they’ve stolen from Epiphone or bought out the back door from Epi suppliers – the fake is so good that there are really no other explanations, imo.

 

So there you have it, hopefully I don’t get the boot for suggesting the above, but in my opinion the guys at Epiphone are being taken for a ride by their trusted employees and/or suppliers / subcontractors.

[animalfarm]

Hmmmm...MDF/Particle Board. That's insane.

Gotta admit, looks good when you give it the initial look-over.

Your experience really indicates the need to go beyond appearance,

and do a little extra like taking off control covers to see WOOD, and

to verify Pots are correct full size (not minis), look at wiring/soldering to

see if it looks "professional" or done in garage, etc.

 

The "Makee-Fakee" folks are geting better.

[brianh]

There are probably hundreds or even thousands of crafstmen with the requisite skills and tens of thousands of CNC machines in Asia that might be available for this work, so I'm not so convinced they're coming from Epi factories, although it's not impossible. As for the parts, I have been buying stuff off Craigslist for restos, and the necessary bits are everywhere:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/Brand-new-epiphone-pearl-headstock-restauration-logo-/110567125232?pt=UK_Guitar_Accessories&hash=item19be5070f0

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/6-set-EPIPHONE-Headstock-Guitar-logo-stickers-decals-/280582639908?pt=Guitar_Accessories&hash=item4154075124

http://cgi.ebay.com/Epiphone-repro-pickguard-decal-1948-1950-s-guard-logo-/260683960318?pt=UK_Musical_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item3cb1f98ffe

[RaSTuS]

Hmmmm...MDF/Particle Board. That's insane.

Gotta admit, looks good when you give it the initial look-over.

Your experience really indicates the need to go beyond appearance,

and do a little extra like taking off control covers to see WOOD, and

to verify Pots are correct full size (not minis), look at wiring/soldering to

see if it looks "professional" or done in garage, etc.

 

The "Makee-Fakee" folks are geting better.

 

Damn, that's a real problem, especially for an aussie who imports most of his guitars from the US (me looks in the mirrror). I must have been extremely lucky not being stung so far, thanks for the heads up james_edward.

[gearhead]

Man they (who ever "they" are) will stop at nothing to make a buck and don't care at all about scamming an innocent, honest person out of their hard earned cash. Sad state of affairs in the world obviously. What's really unbelievable is that they will build an instrument with great skill, but skimp out on a $30 piece of wood. And I'm sure the mahogany is a lot cheaper in Asia than here in the states. I have a friend that builds guitars, and I've seen the wood he buys, and it's really not that expensive.

 

Another episode that goes to show you need to have your eyes and the electronics cavity open when you're laying out some cash for any guitar!

 

Glad you didn't get jacked out of your guitar!

[Hungrycat]

And you know why they're getting so good at faking them? Because we've been telling them what's wrong with the fakes they make. I mean how many one post members do we have with an "Is it fake?" thread to their name?

 

I think we need a rule for the "Is it fake?" thread: Yes or No answers ONLY. If not prohibiting them altogether...

[animalfarm]

And you know why they're getting so good at faking them?

Because we've been telling them what's wrong with the fakes they make.

I mean how many one post members do we have with an "Is it fake?" thread to their name?

 

I think we need a rule for the "Is it fake?" thread: Yes or No answers ONLY. If not prohibiting them altogether...

 

Disagree - I'd rather "Go into Battle" against the "Makee-Fakee" folks knowing

THE SAME information that they do, otherwise, I'm venturing into "enemy territory"

with NO idea of their tactics. Forewarned is Forearmed.

 

By what I've learned over time, I now know WHAT to look for. Do they know what I'm looking for?

Probably, BUT since they're trying to produce a Git on the Cheap, they won't be able to cover ALL

the bases, and that's where knowledge of "Real/Ain't Real" benefits "us" - the comsumer.

 

[brianh]

And you know why they're getting so good at faking them? Because we've been telling them what's wrong with the fakes they make. I mean how many one post members do we have with an "Is it fake?" thread to their name?

 

I think we need a rule for the "Is it fake?" thread: Yes or No answers ONLY. If not prohibiting them altogether...

MDF versions aside, at what point is a fake as good or better than the original?

 

I see Grecos, Tokais, and Ibanez copies going for big money on eBay these days.

 

Just curious...

[Darren W]

Just a question but how many of us who see an obvious fakey on Evilbay etc report it to evilbay or Gibson.

 

I do, and to be honest with Evilbay Australia one can be busy some days.

[Hungrycat]

MDF versions aside, at what point is a fake as good or better than the original?

I see Grecos, Tokais, and Ibanez copies going for big money on eBay these days.

Just curious...

 

Those aren't fakes, they're copies. Big differences. Copies like Tokai and Greco and such aren't meant to deceive. They're not being sold as real Epis or Gibsons. Fakes say "Gibson" or "Epiphone" on the headstock, but aren't.

[AlanH]

Epi do make lesser LPs with ply bodies right?

 

A detective would look at all the possibilities. Another explanation could be that this is a legit EE Epiphone guitar but that the factory has cut corners by using ply instead of mahogany.

 

In other cultures, legitimacy of the components may have less priority compared with factors like keeping the production line going.

 

Ask yourself which is the most likely:-

 

-a nightime superfake team who switch out one factor (which wouldn't make that much difference in materials cost for faker margins anyway), or

 

-a corner cutting exercise in the factory which, to the foreman who has to keep things moving, isn't important and most likely won't be spotted.

 

Just a thought.

 

Alan

[Hungrycat]

Epi do make lesser LPs with ply bodies right?

 

A detective would look at all the possibilities. Another explanation could be that this is a legit EE Epiphone guitar but that the factory has cut corners by using ply instead of mahogany.

 

MDF is not the same as plywood. Plywood is thin sheets of wood glued together. Medium Density Fiberboard is sawdust and glue.

[Steven Lister]

One fact we all know and agree on --- the EPI Black LP Custom is the #1 "funky" model. What we can't nail down is: does "funky" = fake or some other possibility (and there are several).

 

Given the near perfect outward looks of this one, I'm going to question a little bit the OP's fake-o-meter methodology. Scratching the dielectric coating inside a cavity could have resulted in a false positive. Manufacturers use their most flawed wood stock to make painted body instruments. Which means that wood fillers and other cut-corner methods are employed especially where the flaw is in a hidden location like inside a cavity or under a veneer. Wood grains often have weak spots primarily from knot holes that can yield an MDF or sawdust-like residue if attacked with a scraping tool. Or the same yield at a poor joinder of multiple pieces/strips where the "mahogany" is glued together to form the "solid body".

 

In short, instead of racing to judgment, I submit that what the OP discovered was not the sure-fire positive fake-r-oo check out that he raced to conclude but rather real good cause to dig even deeper (pull a neck PUP for a look see at wood and electronics, etc.).

 

And james_edward, I do agree with the "in-house" schenanigans theory. I coined the term "EPI 3rds" to describe the ones that do flow from EPI controlled shops --- you can take a look back at my old posts ('08-09) discussing why these are not "fakes" in the true sense of the word. I can't prove a word of it, but that doesn't mean it isn't true. Don't sweat it, EPI hasn't banned me... yet.

 

Hit every BLUE NOTE baaaby..., I'm going to play on

[BillyGibson]

And you know why they're getting so good at faking them? Because we've been telling them what's wrong with the fakes they make. I mean how many one post members do we have with an "Is it fake?" thread to their name?

 

I think we need a rule for the "Is it fake?" thread: Yes or No answers ONLY. If not prohibiting them altogether...

 

 

Great. Just Great. Now the fakers will go back to using some sort of mystery mahagony wood.

[james_edward]

Well Steven, that’s an interesting point you make about a possibility of an incorrect assessment of the materials, and from your point of view I can see it’s totally possible, but you couldn’t be more wrong, what I based my decision on is experience.

 

I’m a person formally trained as a cabinetmaker with well over 30 years experience, I’ve personally cut 100’s of thousands of board feet of every imaginable type of lumber and 10’s of thousands of sheets of every know sheet stock. I’ve built everything from store fixtures to antique reproductions to mahogany boats, and yes guitars.

 

These days I’m the general manager of a millwork company where I’m also responsible for purchasing all materials (including plenty of mdf) so I’m still in daily contact with all the materials used in the industry.

 

I also program the CNC machining center and have extensive knowledge in this area, hence my comments about the shape and size of that guitar.

 

If you think even for a minute that I made a mistake when I said the body of the guitar pictured is 100% mfd, then let me assure you, you’re 100% wrong.

 

So, now let’s go back to warning the public that unless you look further than the usual places when checking for fakes, you’ll be burned,

 

Jim.

[james_edward]

Great. Just Great. Now the fakers will go back to using some sort of mystery mahagony wood.

 

Get over it, it's better to warn our brothers about being ripped off, if the bad guys need info on Epi guitars, they can just buy one...

[RaSTuS]

And you know why they're getting so good at faking them? Because we've been telling them what's wrong with the fakes they make. I mean how many one post members do we have with an "Is it fake?" thread to their name?

 

I think we need a rule for the "Is it fake?" thread: Yes or No answers ONLY. If not prohibiting them altogether...

 

One of the biggest probs is when people post proper serial numbers, even one serial number is one too many. They only need one number and don't need to change it sequentially for each instrument like Epi or Gibson do, they can pump out 1000 guitars with the same number on them, who's going to notice, it just looks like a legit number to anyone looking at it.

[animalfarm]

Get over it, it's better to warn our brothers about being ripped off, if the bad guys need info on Epi guitars, they can just buy one...

 

+1 - I be in agreement with that!!! If I wanted to learn how to "Makee-Fakee",

that would be the best way. A small investment compared to the worldwide scam

they wish to perpetrate.

 

A cabinet maker, eh? MAN, I've been slobbering/Dreaming about a Les Paul style guitar

make out of 100% PADAUK Wood. Ahhhhhhh, SO PRETTY! (All I have to do, is Dream, Dream, Dream...).

[james_edward]

One of the biggest probs is when people post proper serial numbers, even one serial number is one too many. They only need one number and don't need to change it sequentially for each instrument like Epi or Gibson do, they can pump out 1000 guitars with the same number on them, who's going to notice, it just looks like a legit number to anyone looking at it.

 

Sorry but this is wrong, it makes no difference. You don't need a serial number per se, you just need to understand the format, which believe me they do.

 

Anyone who understands the format used by Epi to come up with serial numbers (and has access to a single legit guitar) can write one for themselves,

[RaSTuS]

Sorry but this is wrong, it makes no difference. You don't need a serial number per se, you just need to understand the format, which believe me they do.

 

Anyone who understands the format used by Epi to come up with serial numbers (and has access to a single legit guitar) can write one for themselves,

 

How do you think they understand the format, they probably troll "Epi for sale" listings and forums to garner that info in the first instance, they're not born with that knowledge.

[james_edward]

How do you think they understand the format, they probably troll "Epi for sale" listings and forums to garner that info in the first instance, they're not born with that knowledge.

 

Well I'm not going to argue this point, when people want to counterfeit anything, a watch, a dress, jewelry, shoes, GUITARS, they buy an original and sit down with it to start their work, period.

 

Granted, they may use these forums to "refine" their products, but in the end we have to outsmart them, and being informed is the only way to achieve that.

 

We can do far more good showing people how to catch these crooks in the act and not get burned, by discussing it.

 

For instance, the guitar in question passed every fake test out there on the net - unless you can show me someone who has noted that checking the wood in the control cavities is a good idea, because it's not one of the standard "tests" by which we judge fakes these days, and I've never read anything about checking the substrate.

 

So let's all wake up and help each other to catch these guys and NOT GET RIPPED OFF

 

BTW - to date not 1 person has posted detailed pictures of a legit EE07 Black 2-pup Custom, I guess it's time to use common sense and ask Epi directly, if there such a guitar available made by Epiphone, I'll email Epi1 and get back to you guys here if I get an answer, J.

[RaSTuS]

Well I'm not going to argue this point, when people want to counterfeit anything, a watch, a dress, jewelry, shoes, GUITARS, they buy an original and sit down with it to start their work, period.

 

Granted, they may use these forums to "refine" their products, but in the end we have to outsmart them, and being informed is the only way to achieve that.

 

We can do far more good showing people how to catch these crooks in the act and not get burned, by discussing it.

 

For instance, the guitar in question passed every fake test out there on the net - unless you can show me someone who has noted that checking the wood in the control cavities is a good idea, because it's not one of the standard "tests" by which we judge fakes these days, and I've never read anything about checking the substrate.

 

So let's all wake up and help each other to catch these guys and NOT GET RIPPED OFF

 

BTW - to date not 1 person has posted detailed pictures of a legit EE07 Black 2-pup Custom, I guess it's time to use common sense and ask Epi directly, if there such a guitar available made by Epiphone, I'll email Epi1 and get back to you guys here if I get an answer, J.

 

I couldn't agree more John, and I wasn't neccessarily pointing the finger at this forum or any post therein, there a so many forums where this info can be garnered not to mention online guitar shops, auction sites and the like who are quite happy to display pics of the rear side of the headstock and/or actually list the s/n.

 

It was your mention of serial number's percieved legitimacy in your initial post that prompted me to raise the subject, sorry if you feel I've been unfair on this subject, it was never meant to offend anyone, I simply thought it was a poingnant point to raise for discussion. I know if I were buying a second hand Epi this would also be a major deciding factor in my perception of the guitar's origin.

[james_edward]

I couldn't agree more John, and I wasn't neccessarily pointing the finger at this forum or any post therein, there a so many forums where this info can be garnered not to mention online guitar shops, auction sites and the like who are quite happy to display pics of the rear side of the headstock and/or actually list the s/n.

 

It was your mention of serial number's percieved legitimacy in your initial post that prompted me to raise the subject, sorry if you feel I've been unfair on this subject, it was never meant to offend anyone, I simply thought it was a poingnant point to raise for discussion. I know if I were buying a second hand Epi this would also be a major deciding factor in my perception of the guitar's origin.

 

No offense taken, and just to clarify, the only thing I though was legit about that serial number was the actual font and size of font used (as in the letters EE were the physically the same size font as the numbers).

 

Running a number though any type of online "serial number checker" will only tell you if the counterfeiters understand the format used by Epiphone, as I outlined previously in this thread.

[animalfarm]

Well,taking precautions is a MOST WISE decsion. DO YOUR RESEARCH, ASK LOTS of questions of

seller. A Legit seller won't mind, as he/she believes they have a potential buyer.

Not ALL gits on ebay are fakes - I bought my LP Clasic from a pawnshop in florida, but only after

exchanging 4 emails (which were promptly answered), AND after acutally talking to seller on phone

twice. Dude was friendly, great to talk to.

 

I used a technique for bidding where I raised my max bid about 5 times over a period of days to my

highest MAX that I would go. REASON? Pshychologial Warfare. Other bidders would see that my price had

gone up 5 times - the hope was they would think "too high". A couple tried, but my bid instantly beat theirs.

My max bid was $370. The others bid in the high $200 range, then quit. So I WON! paid $300 for a MINT condition

LP Classic, which was much less than I had seen similar gits go for. Even a last minute sniper would have been

beaten, unless he dumped a LARGE amount into his max bid (had my fingers crossed).

 

I've only had one bad seller out of around 50 ebay purchases - and he dragged his feet, BADLY. I sent many emails

with no response, so I finally called him at home (shocked the #@@#$% out of him) and said "that's it man - CANCEL

the transaction. I want my money back. I recieved the usual "tap dancing" responses. HE DID eventually send the git,

packaged only in a vynil gig bag, and git was damaged all to h*ll. I filed an "item SNAD" report with ebay and demanded

a refund.

 

They ruled in my favor as I had pics of item as listed, and as recieved. I did get my refund, got to keep the guitar,

and seller was banned from ebay. I did have my revenge - I gave him a positive feedback, then listed ALL problems with

dealing with this in the reply warning others to stay away. Sellers can't dispute Positive feedback. He was a rude kid in New York.

he is now an ebay-less rude kid in new york.

[RaSTuS]

Not ALL gits on ebay are fakes

 

I've got about 60 odd instruments, mainly guitars, 90% of them came from ebay, sure I've been disappointed occassionally, but rarely and I've only been stiffed once for about $200, not bad seeing as I've spent $80,000 or more on there.

 

I've only had one bad seller out of around 50 ebay purchases - and he dragged his feet, BADLY. I sent many emails

with no response, so I finally called him at home (shocked the #@@#$% out of him) and said "that's it man -

 

Having trouble with such a goose at the moment in Akron Ohio, but I won't get stiffed this time.