I bought a fake Epi… almost

[animalfarm]

I've got about 60 odd instruments, mainly guitars, 90% of them came from ebay, sure I've been disappointed occassionally, but rarely and I've only been stiffed once for about $200, not bad seeing as I've spent $80,000 or more on there.

 

 

 

Having trouble with such a goose at the moment in Akron Ohio, but I won't get stiffed this time.

 

RaSTus - you have too many guitars(Ahem) . I did have 8 guitars, but sold off 4 to help with

my Girlfriend's medical expenses following her Kidney removal surgery (cancer). If you have any that you just

aren't that attached to...... Just cram the git into a USB port, I'll pull it out on my end.

Bottom line, I STILL have my 4 favorites. But NOW I've got the Jones/Gas for another, even a project git.

Local craigslist is useless so far - every listing askes for "retail" price. No! No! No! Craigslist is an on-line

"garage Sale" of sorts. I expect a price that makes me and the seller happy.

[RaSTuS]

RaSTus - you have too many guitars(Ahem) . I did have 8 guitars, but sold off 4 to help with

my Girlfriend's medical expenses following her Kidney removal surgery (cancer). If you have any that you just

aren't that attached to...... Just cram the git into a USB port, I'll pull it out on my end.

Bottom line, I STILL have my 4 favorites. But NOW I've got the Jones/Gas for another, even a project git.

Local craigslist is useless so far - every listing askes for "retail" price. No! No! No! Craigslist is an on-line

"garage Sale" of sorts. I expect a price that makes me and the seller happy.

 

I've got about 6 project gits, my second guitar, an Econ SSS Strat copy (finished), another SSS Strat copy (Monterey scratch and dent) I got new for $99, it had a dud neck pup so I bought a HSH loaded PG for $50 and coil split it, now it's a screamer, a no name '72 HH Tele Thinline copy with bigsby copy and the no name 355 copy, also with a bigsby copy I got yesterday, only thing the last 2 need is some inlay work on the headstoks and coil splits. Oh, forgot about the Maestro hollow-body with bigsby copy I was rewiring last week, unfortunately I had no hook-up wire so basically just modified it to vintage wiring, I'll get full size pots and some wire soon and totally ovehaul it.

 

The last 3 are all various forms of hollow/semi-hollow git, want to screw with el cheapos before I commit to something more substantial, though I have a Fender '72 Thinline RI, the fretboard is hi-gloss, looks gorgeous and I don't want to diminish it's outstanding looks by playing it.

[vomer]

 

 

I’m a person formally trained as a cabinetmaker with well over 30 years experience, I’ve personally cut 100’s of thousands of board feet of every imaginable type of lumber and 10’s of thousands of sheets of every know sheet stock. I’ve built everything from store fixtures to antique reproductions to mahogany boats, and yes guitars.

 

These days I’m the general manager of a millwork company where I’m also responsible for purchasing all materials (including plenty of mdf) so I’m still in daily contact with all the materials used in the industry.

 

I also program the CNC machining center and have extensive knowledge in this area, hence my comments about the shape and size of that guitar.

 

If you think even for a minute that I made a mistake when I said the body of the guitar pictured is 100% mfd, then let me assure you, you’re 100% wrong.

 

[lol]

 

But are you really sure? Only kidding, it sounds like fate/karma/the universe sent EXACTLY the right person for the job to assess that guitar. It does concern me though, that I wouldn't have suspected it from the pics. Can I ask Jim, did the texture of the MDF show through the paint?

 

Edit- sorry I just checked your post again and you said it did look like MDF through the paint.

[Steven Lister]

BTW - to date not 1 person has posted detailed pictures of a legit EE07 Black 2-pup Custom, I guess it's time to use common sense and ask Epi directly, if there such a guitar available made by Epiphone, I'll email Epi1 and get back to you guys here if I get an answer, J.

Over the years for every photo posted of a Black LP Custom alleged to be a fake, someone has always been able to post photos of a known legit one that had the same "flaws/flags" as the alleged fake. The flags signalling a fake (knob alignment and diamond inlay being the top two flags on the list) do not necessarily equal fake. The reason for that is EPI's quality control is such that misaligned knobs and inlays (and most of the other flags) are common to some degree or other on genuine EPIs. EPI to be sure should be credited with an assist in counterfeiting of its own products, even if inadvertently, through EPI's inconsistent QC.

 

As to serial #s, they are everywhere -- in stores, classified ads, backstage, in the many factories EPI has used over the last 10 years, and online. A thief wouldn't have any problem at all finding out what a legit # is and looks like. Putting serial # decoders online is a public service -- it brings the general public up-to-speed so that they know as much/more as the thief.

 

james_edward it sounds like you know woods and you were the only one there (who's talking). It would not surprise me at all to know that a all/part MDF body made on EPI's CNC machine found its way to a "legitimate" market dealer/source (Kijiji or other). That is exactly what I say happens with EPI 3rds. And it is for that very reason that I would dearly love to have had proof/photos of the neck tenon, back of the pups, wiring inside the cavities. As a buyer put out, you were understandably upset, I guess that I was just lamenting that you had not stopped being in buyer mode and gone into inspector mode and taken these next steps (even asking to see a copy of the sellers receipt) and then posted the results to have proven true the theory of EPI 3rds.

 

Hit every BLUE NOTE baaaby..., I'm going to play on

[james_edward]

[lol]

 

But are you really sure? Only kidding, it sounds like fate/karma/the universe sent EXACTLY the right person for the job to assess that guitar. It does concern me though, that I wouldn't have suspected it from the pics. Can I ask Jim, did the texture of the MDF show through the paint?

 

Edit- sorry I just checked your post again and you said it did look like MDF through the paint.

 

You could see the MDF clearly in the control cavity once I cut some material away, but I was floored by how well the guitar was finished generally.

 

Years ago filling the endgrain of the MDF prior to finishing was the common technique, you did it so the finish didn't cave into the endgrain and produce edges that were pitted or textured.

 

You want the edge to match the face and this was a weak point of MDF as far as finishing was concerned.

 

These days, catalyzed finishes with very a high solids content make finishing MDF endgrain a snap, anyway this guitar had a perfect finish, not one bit different than a legit Epi.

[marvar]

Here is the one question that keeps nagging at me about this whole fake Epi business-why would someone go thru the trouble of making a fake of something relatively inexpensive (Epiphone)that is already a copy of another well known/more expensive brand? (Gibson)

Somehow, making a fake of an already lower-line guitar doesn't seem to make sense to me. Am I missing something here?

If I were gonna' make fakes of something, I'd go for the more expensive brand name, not try to pass them off as an already less-expensive brand.

Do they think that no one will inspect it as close because it's being passed as an Epiphone instead of a Gibson?

I too have seen many 'experts' call a certain guitar a fake, only to find later that it isn't fake at all.

[mud guy]

BTW - to date not 1 person has posted detailed pictures of a legit EE07 Black 2-pup Custom, I guess it's time to use common sense and ask Epi directly, if there such a guitar available made by Epiphone, I'll email Epi1 and get back to you guys here if I get an answer, J.

 

Hi James_Edward...I've taken some pics of the Les Paul custom EE07 I bought used recently (thanks for your comments and caution on my HNGD post). I pulled out the pickups too, looks like wood where the sheilding paint is absent. Whether or not that makes it legitimate, I don't know. Anyway, here is a link to the photos.

 

Les Paul Custom

 

-Cal

[brianh]

And you know why they're getting so good at faking them? Because we've been telling them what's wrong with the fakes they make. I mean how many one post members do we have with an "Is it fake?" thread to their name?

 

I think we need a rule for the "Is it fake?" thread: Yes or No answers ONLY. If not prohibiting them altogether...

Nah, that won't make a bit of difference. These are most likely folks who were trained in the subcontract factories, made thousands of legit guits, and know exactly how to make a convincing fake out of packing crates and toilet paper.

 

The serial number is the easiest part of the whole thing, and they can either steal the parts or get them below wholesale. A buddy or jobber who works a CNC machine anywhere can insert a disc, hit a few buttons, throw in some mystery wood and poof, out pops a body blank and neck. Add a fretboard and some inlays, throw on some solid paint (like black for instance), and nobody but james_edward and a few other suspicious buyers are ever going to figure it out.

 

I don't know why anybody would be shocked about this - WE taught them how and equipped them to do it starting in Japan in the 70's, and now they're able to scam unsuspecting bottom feeders all day long.

 

Simple solution - unless you know what you're doing, buy at a reputable, authorized dealer.

 

It ain't rocket surgery.

[BillyGibson]

This is good discussion. When I started back playing the guitar three years ago, I just went to Guitar Center and didn't even think about fakes. The few I've bought since then have been from GC too and were trades. The trade value and discount off the new one made it worth while to not go through the risk of getting a fake. Everything I've read always takes me full circle back to dealing with an authorized dealer. Might pay a little more. But at least I can put a face with the name.

[animalfarm]

Hi James_Edward...I've taken some pics of the Les Paul custom EE07 I bought used recently (thanks for your comments and caution on my HNGD post). I pulled out the pickups too, looks like wood where the sheilding paint is absent. Whether or not that makes it legitimate, I don't know. Anyway, here is a link to the photos.

 

Les Paul Custom

 

-Cal

 

Based on looking at your pics, I'd say your actually have the "Real Deal" -

 

Pickups are correct for that Model.(Yeah, I know - ANYBODY can get Epi pups...).

 

Volume/Tone Knob alignment is correct (if you draw a straight line thru the centers of

the Neck Vol and Tone Knobs going up to the center Pickguard screw, it intersects it thru the

middle, just as it should.).

 

Both Bridge and Neck knobs look "balanced/parallel/ascetically correct".

 

On the front of headstock, the Tuner/Washer distance from edge, and the Logo look correct.

 

Looks like real wood inside your pup cavity.

 

Looks totally legit to me.

If not, then "Drop-Kick Me Jesus through the Goalposts of life.....".

[Steven Lister]

Yo fellas, you're not listening closely to what's being said here.

 

james_edward has observed/photo-ed a "fake" LP Custom allegedly bought from an authorized outlet – Kijiji (that's like Amazon to us Canadians) --- but despite it's flawless outward appearance, apparently it's a “fake” aka EPI 3rd.

 

IOW – and what we're on the track of nailing down – is that some authorized dealers may be selling substandard EPI 3rds (but the quality is such that it goes unnoticed at the point of sale).

 

My advice to anyone looking to buy a high risk LP Custom is:

1. buy in-person, never online, even from authorized dealers

2. check the guitar thoroughly ---- not just aesthetics but look inside the cavities (let their set-up person remove covers/pups to show you and if they refuse, walk on) ---- to verify body material, electronic authenticity, quality of work, wiring, solder joints, etc.)

3. make sure you receive a sales receipt in case something becomes apparent later on that you may have missed in your haste to buy and play your new baby.

 

Hit every BLUE NOTE baaaby..., I'm going to play on

[mud guy]

Yo fellas, you're not listening closely to what's being said here.

 

james_edward has observed/photo-ed a "fake" LP Custom allegedly bought from an authorized outlet – Kijiji (that's like Amazon to us Canadians) --- but despite it's flawless outward appearance, apparently it's a “fake” aka EPI 3rd.

 

IOW – and what we're on the track of nailing down – is that some authorized dealers may be selling substandard EPI 3rds (but the quality is such that it goes unnoticed at the point of sale).

 

My advice to anyone looking to buy a high risk LP Custom is:

1. buy in-person, never online, even from authorized dealers

2. check the guitar thoroughly ---- not just aesthetics but look inside the cavities (let their set-up person remove covers/pups to show you and if they refuse, walk on) ---- to verify body material, electronic authenticity, quality of work, wiring, solder joints, etc.)

3. make sure you receive a sales receipt in case something becomes apparent later on that you may have missed in your haste to buy and play your new baby.

 

Hit every BLUE NOTE baaaby..., I'm going to play on

 

Good advice, but just to clarify, the OP said that the seller of the suspect guitar purchased the guitar off Kijiji and didn't know. Kijiji is like Craigslist, not Amazon, so definitely buyer beware. I did buy a used EE07 black les paul custom from an authorized dealer that someone had traded in, but was originally purchased at that same store in 2007. It appears to be legitimate (or at least real wood).

 

-Cal

[AlanH]

Epi do make lesser LPs with ply bodies right?

 

A detective would look at all the possibilities. Another explanation could be that this is a legit EE Epiphone guitar but that the factory has cut corners by using ply instead of mahogany.

 

In other cultures, legitimacy of the components may have less priority compared with factors like keeping the production line going.

 

Ask yourself which is the most likely:-

 

-a nightime superfake team who switch out one factor (which wouldn't make that much difference in materials cost for faker margins anyway), or

 

-a corner cutting exercise in the factory which, to the foreman who has to keep things moving, isn't important and most likely won't be spotted.

 

Just a thought.

 

Alan

 

 

.........and don't rule out my theory above. Whether ply or MDF I still think it's even worth checking a brand new guitar bought from an authorised dealer. Different standards apply in different parts of the world and this kind of short cut could definitely get through an EU or USA set up if they weren't looking for it.

 

So, the above advice even applies to brand new guits from authorised sources, IMO.

 

Alan

[crazymarvel]

I bought one about a year ago before i knew alot. the commn things to look out for all checked out so i figured its all good but when it arrived, the playability wasn't good so i thought a setup would sort that out. then the pup covers began to fade. thts when i thought i might be dealing with a fake. and now it looks more like a fake every day. so i am now stuck with a fake. wouldnt want to sell it to anybody. so i'm now thinking i might just turn it into the best sounding fake. (turning a bad situation into a good one). any suggestions?

[gearhead]

VERY interesting thread guys. I would have to say that james knows what he was looking at, especially with his experience in the wood crafting/procuring market. Good thing he checked it! BUT, I would have to disagree with the notion that we are giving "them" information on how to fake their guitars! The counterfeiters are gonna do it no matter what, and they can just look around for the "right" serial numbers or build specs etc. NOT hard to find. Or maybe someone that works for Epi is giving away design prints with specs? Or they got their hands on a couple genuine units to make copies of? Hell, I can buy prints to build exact duplicates of a Gibson Les Paul for less than $20 online! It's all a matter of speculation. None of us know for sure, but we do know there are fakes being passed off as the genuine article. Knowledge is power, and if you know what you're looking for, you have the power to identify a counterfeit! So I say put all the information out for everybody to see, so that we are all WELL informed. And when anyone of us run across someone who is KNOWINGLY trying to pass a counterfeit off as the real thing, then turn them in. BUT, how do you know for sure that the person actually knows it's a fake and trying to rip you off? And how do you PROVE it? Unless they try to convince you, or are representing it as the genuine article. It's all about the burden of proof.

KEEP YOUR EYES OPEN AND YOUR MOUTH SHUT AND THERE'S LOTS TO BE LEARNED!

 

Just my thoughts...........

[james_edward]

I bought one about a year ago before i knew alot. the commn things to look out for all checked out so i figured its all good but when it arrived, the playability wasn't good so i thought a setup would sort that out. then the pup covers began to fade. thts when i thought i might be dealing with a fake. and now it looks more like a fake every day. so i am now stuck with a fake. wouldnt want to sell it to anybody. so i'm now thinking i might just turn it into the best sounding fake. (turning a bad situation into a good one). any suggestions?

 

Can you take off the back control cover and shoot some pictures, also post some other pic's so we can check it out...

[crazymarvel]

I have another question. Are there lighter mahogany epiphone les pauls? I found one in a shop today with real tuners and EMG pickups. The only problem is it was lighter than the other custom that i have. I bought it because i liked the sound though. I want to know if it is real. It feels lighter than the others